23 replies to this topic

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

For those who are still unclear on the term “Tree”, it is referring to the runner, string, or excess plastic that held the figures after their being cast. Refer to Arforbes Recent Find to see what I’m talking about. Also when referring to a tree and the number of figures on that tree, the number of figures are US Muscle Sculpts known to be on that tree. Also please read all the given information carefully before asking anymore questions, or presenting arguments.

Why was a green #2 pictured on the Board Game Box, but not used?

Our first thought would be that the initial desire of the Producers of the Board Game was to use the Buffalo Man Sculpt that they pictured on the packaging of the Muscle line toys. Which would be Poster Figure # 2. But why didn’t they use it? To sum it all up, it has to do with Production Efficiency. That is my believed answer after going through all the Part information Soupie and I gathered, and will be highlighted in the next few questions.

Why was Numbers 234 and 235 made?

First, to understand where I gather the above idea, we must first know why the two Non-Kinnikuman Sculpts, 234 and 235, were made. They were first made for the same reason as stated above Production Efficiency. Since they had decided on making Muscle Man and Terri-bull nemesis, they would want to have some consistency in this very small story arc, for one purpose! Extra money for less merchandise produced. So in order to do this two new sculpts had to be made for the ring and had to have their own separate trees. It would make production run smoother. The faster the product is put together, the faster it can be shipped out. Production Efficiency! All the other Buffalo Man and Kinnikuman sculpts were on trees with other figures! They cut out the middle process of having to separate non-ring figures from ring figures.

Why was 235 used instead of #2?

For some reason they felt the game should have 10 figures. They already had a tree that had ONLY 5 sculpts, that included Muscle Man, that they molded in Grape. So they would need an additional 5 figures for Terri-bull’s side.
The first problem is that the tree that had figure #2 only had 4 figures on it! They would have had to have another figure! So why didn’t they just pull another figure that might have had it’s own tree? (Poster figure #161 is the only sculpt believed to have had his own tree.) Numerous suggestions come in to play. The additional 3 figures on the same tree as #2 were Poster figures 100, 101, 102. If you check them out, they don’t really look that great. They also don’t have that super bad guy look that would probably have appeased to the production designers. So they may have wanted more Sinister looking characters! The grape side already had a great line up. For the Green side however, they chose a tree that had four figures that would make great bad guys. Poster Figures 177, 178, 180, and 181 were perfect for this, and just happened to be on the same tree! So to avoid a slow in Production Efficiency! They pulled one of the two figures that they had made for the Ring set. That was figure 235 Terri-bull. Using this figure would prevent the manufacturer from having to cull out any extra figures that wouldn’t be used, but also would make it so that the production of the figures on # 2’s tree could continue. The faster the product gets put together, the faster it can be shipped out. Production Efficiency! Getting the picture so far?

Why didn’t they use any other Buffalo Man Sculpts?

Again, we have to consider trees. There were 4 additional Buffalo Man sculpts besides #’s 2 and 235. So why not use one of them?
First # 58 was bald! Although he resembles Terri-bull, he slightly misses the part. Also he was on a tree that had a total of 6 sculpts! That’s one sculpt too many!
Second # 93 was on a tree of 10! Also way too many
Third # 105 had the same problem as 93!
Fourth # 211 didn’t have any horns, but was also only on a tree of 4 sculpts.
So 58 and 211 didn’t fit the Terri-bulls looks, and 93 and 105 were on large trees. Using 93 and 105 would have slowed down production of almost 18 figures!

If a Green # 2 was pictured on the box, does that mean #2 was produced in Green?

Yes and No. Yes a green #2 had to be made for the test shot on the box, but that does not mean they mass produced #2’s tree in green. So chances are that only 1 Green Terri-Bull ever existed. And honestly I doubt anyone would ever find it. Also this makes it possible that 100, 101, and 102 also had one of a kind green sculpts. More than likely all were lost, thrown away, destroyed, or given to an employee. And since we don’t know who that guy is. Fat Chance at ever finding them! But this does leave open the slight possibility.


If 234 was used for the ring set, why wasn’t he used for the Board game as well?

Simple, There was no reason too. They would have had to go through the same trouble they went through for 235.

Why didn’t they use another Kinnikuman sculpt for the Ring?

Same problem #2 had for the board game. Too many sculpts on each tree. As explained in the previous questions, it had to do with Production Efficiency.

Why not use the mold plug technique for trees with too many figures?

Haven’t you been listening? PRODUCTION EFFICIENCY!!!! Slacking off anywhere from 10 to 20 figures could have damaged interest in the line for those trying to collect the whole set.


If you see any info that might be incorrect, such as figure #'s and the such, feel free to correct me.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 27 March 2006 - 05:23 PM.

[jkaris]

Good theory.

[Soupie]

Since they were making lots of trees in GREEN anyhow, I was thinking why not just make the tree with figures 177, 178, 180, and 181 (GREEN board game figs) and the tree with 002, 100, 101, and 102 both in GREEN.

Then they could just take figs 177, 178, 180, and 181 GREEN and 002 GREEN and throw them into the board game package.

You kind of address this here:

They pulled one of the two figures that they had made for the Ring set. That was figure 235 Terri-bull. Using this figure would prevent the manufacturer from having to cull out any extra figures that wouldn’t be used, but also would make it so that the production of the figures on # 2’s tree could continue. The faster the product gets put together, the faster it can be shipped out.

Production of the other figs on 002's tree could still have commenced in GREEN, but I guess having to pluck figure 002 from its tree and package it differently than the other figures on the tree would potentially be a time drag. (And as you say, they definitely would not have wanted to plug the other four figures.)

It definitely would have been more difficult than the tree of 5 GRAPE figures (Part 8, Tree 1), which could all be produced and packaged with the gameboard in one step.

It would have been cool if they made the GREEN board game figures (Part 15, Tree 1) in a unique color as well, perhaps YELLOW!

The way you explain it, they could just plop out a GRAPE tree of 5, a GREEN tree of 4, and then another GREEN tree of 1 and toss them all in a pile to be packaged in the same way with as little interruption to the production of other colored MUSCLEs as possible.

Very nice! Good job, man.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Since they were making lots of trees in GREEN anyhow, I was thinking why not just make the tree with figures 177, 178, 180, and 181 (GREEN board game figs) and the tree with 002, 100, 101, and 102 both in GREEN.

Good point, that leads me to believe that:

A. They randomly picked trees to mold in each color, and only produced one color at a time. And #2's tree just didn't get the green treatment
Or
B. They molded 4 colors at a time and randomly selected trees, and again #2 just got skipped on the green.

After we examine our collected Parts data more closely, maybe we will see an overall bigger picture. I noticed some parts were only produced in only 4 colors, and this may be due to cancellation of the muscle line, and again makes me think they did four colors at a time. I think if we were to examine 4, and 28 packs, we would see that, like in Alex's case, the same color groups tend to show up in multiple packs, and in usually the same sculpt.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

And to add to the 4 color at a time theory, some sculpts are highly abundant in some colors like Red and Purple, Indicating that they may have got a double trip in the same color.

And when you mentioned "It would have been cool if they made the GREEN board game figures (Part 15, Tree 1) in a unique color as well, perhaps YELLOW!" It made me think that Grape and Green were the very first colors made. That would explain why Green has an overall even appearance in most of the figures.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 27 March 2006 - 06:34 PM.

[arforbes]

You guys are putting together some incredible theories and devoting a lot of time to this, which is just amazing to me. I am intrigued by your findings, and am eager to see what the final outcome of all this research is. I think because of the significance of these findings, you should seriously print out documents of the trees when all the work is done. I would pick one up in an instant, for help with collecting and also just to have records of what figures were actually produced in which colors, and also an explanation of what figures were produced together on trees together. Incredible work guys, I am standing back in awe of all this new information!

[Soupie]

Good point, that leads me to believe that:

A. They randomly picked trees to mold in each color, and only produced one color at a time.  And #2's tree just didn't get the green treatment
Or
B. They molded 4 colors at a time and randomly selected trees, and again #2 just got skipped on the green.

Well, what I was saying was if they really wanted to use figure 002, they could have easily made the tree he was in in GREEN. But, as it turns out, it seems it was more effecient to use figure 235.

Can you imagine how confusing it would be if 002 was on the box AND his tree was produced in GREEN, but he didn't come with the board game.



For our own sanity, maybe it's best that 002's tree was not made in GREEN. Even though it easily could have been.

(As a side note, remember that the Terri-Bull figure pictured on the Ring Box is not Terri 235. I'm too tired to theorize what that might mean though.)

As for how they decided which trees to make in which colors, I haven't even had time to think on that.

I'd be curious to look through the data and see how many trees were made in GREEN, how many in RED, how many in PURPLE, etc.

Hell, I haven't even looked to see how many trees there are yet.

After we examine our collected Parts data more closely, maybe we will see an overall bigger picture.  I noticed some parts were only produced in only 4 colors, and this may be due to cancellation of the muscle line, and again makes me think they did four colors at a time.

...

And to add to the 4 color at a time theory, some sculpts are highly abundant in some colors like Red and Purple, Indicating that they may have got a double trip in the same color.

And when you mentioned "It would have been cool if they made the GREEN board game figures (Part 15, Tree 1) in a unique color as well, perhaps YELLOW!" It made me think that Grape and Green were the very first colors made. That would explain why Green has an overall even appearance in most of the figures.

I'm not sure I follow you here.

What exactly makes you think that GREEN and GRAPE were the first colors? Do you mean GREEN and PURPLE? That does make sense, but GRAPE being first doesn't for me.

Interestingly, in Part 8, Tree 1 (GRAPE board figures) GRAPE is 2-3 times more abundant than the other colors in the tree.

While Part 15, Tree 1 (GREEN board figures) GREEN is equal to two other colors in the line, but just as abundant as Part 8, Tree 1 GRAPE.

Not sure what this means, but I think you are on the right track with some colors (perhaps four) being used twice with 4 new colors only being used once.

My guess with out looking at the tree data would be colors LIGHT BLUE, and MAGENTA were definitely not run twice.

Edited by Soupie, 27 March 2006 - 07:12 PM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Thanks, but if it wasn't for your Rare sensitive eyes, we wouldn't have put two and two together in the first place! It's funny how one little piece of a puzzle can help bring all the other pieces together. Now if you can find us one of those strings with SHA, BHS, and other Super Rares on them, then maybe we can put those mysteries to rest as well.
The tree theory works almost perfectly aside from non-muscle sculpts. We still don't know why some figures weren't used. Almost all of them except Brocken have no reason not to be used, and alot of them are more than likely on the same trees as many of the U.S. Sculpts were. Still so much to find out.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I'm not sure I follow you here.

What exactly makes you think that GREEN and GRAPE were the first colors? Do you mean GREEN and PURPLE? That does make sense, but GRAPE being first doesn't for me.

My theory is that they made the board game when they were making Flesh figures. I mean if they made them during the colored figures, they should have just used Purple instead of mixing another seperate color. That would help explain why those two colors are quite common. Also I've seen the green board game figures packaged with Flesh Figures in mix packs. As if they may have been left over board game stock. Dunno just a suggestion.

[jkaris]

I have a theory as to the abundance of red, dark blue and purples.

half and Half packs. I have never, to my best recollection, seen a mixed pack with any other colors than flesh, red, purple and dark blue.

If wave 1 was flesh,
wave 2 was red, dark blue and purple, and wave 3 was all colors sans flesh and grape, then that would explain why there are some colors more abundant than other (those 3 colors to be precise). There is also the possibility that some trees were made in those 3 colors during the mixed run, but not during the full color runs.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

By the way if I counted right then there are 45 different Trees in the U.S. Muscle Line. Out of those trees: If I counted correctly.

13 trees were not made in Dark Blue
15 weren't made in Green
17 were not made in Light Blue
20 were not made in Magenta
14 were not made in Orange
11 were not made in Purple
14 were not made in Red
12 were not made in Salmon

This may be slightly off, but the numbers do stay pretty much in the same range.

[Soupie]

I was going to ask in my first post in this thread about which came first, the board game or the colored figures. Do we know?

I never bought any MUSCLEs but my buddy did. I think he did have the board game before colored MUSCLEs, though that doesn't mean it came first.

In any case, it's an interesting thought. However, if they decided to make more trees in GREEN, why not make more trees in GRAPE as well?



Arforbes, I will eventually be arranging all the colored MUSCLE images into their kinnikuman parts and trees and featuring them on the MCIA. I will also indicate which colors for each tree are common, uncommon, and rare.

As for the actual raw data, URS is the one who compiled all of it.

[Soupie]

If wave 1 was flesh,
wave 2 was red, dark blue and purple, and wave 3 was all colors sans flesh and grape, then that would explain why there are some colors more abundant than other (those 3 colors to be precise). There is also the possibility that some trees were made in those 3 colors during the mixed run, but not during the full color runs.

Nice!

I was going to say then, that that means all trees (figures) made in R, DB, and P would be common, but I think that while some trees definitely had two runs of, say, RED, you're right that some did not get a second run.

Which means we will still have to rely on the Tree Code to figure out which ones are common and uncommon.

On the other hand, it may be safe to say that all trees (figures) made in colors other than Flesh, R, DB, and P will be uncommon to rare.

Though it is much more cool to actually have a good idea why this is, we all probably could have guessed this if asked because the difference in availibilty is so great.

Edited by Soupie, 27 March 2006 - 07:37 PM.

[Soupie]

By the way if I counted right then there are 45 different Trees in the U.S. Muscle Line.  Out of those trees: If I counted correctly.

13 trees were not made in Dark Blue
15 weren't made in Green
17 were not made in Light Blue
20 were not made in Magenta
14 were not made in Orange
11 were not made in Purple
14 were not made in Red
12 were not made in Salmon

This may be slightly off, but the numbers do stay pretty much in the same range.

Here's another way of looking at the same data:

01 trees made in Grape

25 trees made in Magenta

28 trees made in Light Blue

30 trees made in Green

31 trees made in Orange

31 trees made in Red

32 trees made in Dark Blue

33 trees made in Salmon

34 trees made in Purple

You say the data may be off slightly. I'd be interested to know for sure. In any case, it's intersting that only two colors overlap, but also, as you say, maybe they just wanted an even spread of colors across trees, and that is what we see. (Although the gap between the lowest and highest is 9.)

But, not only were fewer trees made in LIGHT BLUE and MAGENTA, it is interesting that those trees were produced in lower quantities.

This begs the question: Was this done on purpose, or was it a result of the line being cancelled as you suggest...

Another thing to look at would be the ratio of colors-to-parts. For example, did they try to ensure that each part (not necessarily each tree) was made in, say, 4-5 colors?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'd like to find an overall pattern!

Edited by Soupie, 28 March 2006 - 05:47 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Another thing to look at would be the ratio of colors-to-parts. For example, did they try to ensure that each part (not necessarily each tree) was made in, say, 4-5 colors?

Part 1 made in 8 colors
Part 2 made in 8 colors
Part 3 made in 8 colors need a picture of a Magenta 161 to prove this.
Part 4 made in 4 colors
Part 5 made in 8 colors
Part 6 made in 7 colors
Part 7 made in 8 colors
Part 8 made in 9 colors grape included.
Part 9 made in 7 colors
Part 10 made in 6 colors
Part 11 made in 6 colors
Part 12 made in 4 colors
Part 13 made in 8 colors
Part 14 made in 8 colors
Part 15 made in 8 colors
Part 16 made in 7 colors
Part 17 made in 8 colors
Part 18 made in 6 colors
Part 19 made in 7 colors
Part 20 made in 7 colors
Part 21 made in 7 colors

10 parts made in all 8 colors total
6 Parts made in 7 colors
3 Parts made in 6 colors
2 Parts made in 4 colors

This could fluxuate. There are alot of mistakes on the MDB that involve single figures multiple times in one tree, but there is no picture evidence for those figures yet, so it is more than likely that they are mistakes and don't actually exist.

This what you were asking Soups?

[Soupie]

My guess, based on the tree colors spread, part color spread, and the fact that some trees got a double dip in a color while others trees did not, is that the goal was to get as even a spread of colors across trees (figures) as possible.

Maybe there isn't a pattern?

On the other hand, maybe there is another way to arrange the data that might reveal a pattern.

Back to the 'ol drawing board for now, though.

[Soupie]

However, I wonder if the parts (and thus trees) with the most figures are the ones that were made in 7 and 8 colors (production effeciency), while the parts with fewer figures were made in 4 and 6 colors.

Furthermore, it is interesting that the color range (4-8) seems to be missing 5. Think of it this way, if a tree was made in 4 colors in the first wave, and 4 colors in the second wave, if two of the colors were the same in the second wave, it would appear as if the tree was made in 6 colors!

For example:

First Wave:

RED, DARK BLUE, PURPLE, GREEN

Second Wave:

MAGENTA, DARK BLUE, PURPLE, LIGHT BLUE


That would account for the high numbers of DARK BLUE and PURPLE figures (as we said) and it would also make sense why some trees are made in 4, 6, and 8 colors.

The 7 throws things off, though. Maybe.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

the fact that some parts were only molded in 7 colors could indicate that they may have still been molding flesh figures at the time.

As for your theory about the number of colors depending on part size, it's not too far off. Most of the really large parts were made in all 8 colors, but there aren't really enough parts that were made in only 4 colors to tell if this is the case. In all, I don't think overall Part information will make a difference since the parts were divided into trees. I'm still trying to find some similarities myself.

[Soupie]

Thus, the number of colors a tree could be made in would have to be combinations of four and four.

X X X X
X X X X (Four overlap = 4)
X X X X X (Three overlap = 5)
X X X X X X (Two overlap = 6)
X X X X X X X (One overlap = 7)
X X X X X X X X (None overlap = 8)

But, as we know, there are no trees with 5 and 8 colors. What combination of numbers (colors) would naturally result in only the numbers 4, 6, 7, but not 5 and 8.

The solution might actually be pretty simple!

During the all color run (all 8 colors sans Flesh) Bandai overlapped the colors on purpose and there was a pattern! There were three options when coloring a tree:

1) Use four colors
2) Use eight colors, overlapping 1 (7 colors)
3) Use eight colors, overlapping 2 (6 colors)

They would purposefully not overlap 3 (5 colors) and purposelly allows overlap, never allowing all 8 colors to appear.

However, this is big time speculation because we don't know how many waves of MUSCLEs were made, and we can't be sure which colors would have come first.

I like Jkaris' idea about Red, Purple, and Dark Blue being first, but we don't find any parts in only those three colors. Obviously, this could be due to a third wave when new colors were added to the tree.

In that case, you would have multiples of 3 (R, P, DB) and 5 (remaining colors). There would be no way to get a tree made in 4 colors though without leaving one of the five out.

And it would still be odd that they never combined the 3 and 5 in a tree to get all 8 colors.

Edited by Soupie, 28 March 2006 - 03:56 PM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I guess you would have to include flesh. Like this maybe?

F P R D G L O S M
x first wave
x x x x second
o o x x x x third
o x o o o o x x x fourth

If that doesn't make sense it's because I'm not understanding what your chart represents.

[Soupie]

Oops, I edited my post above, rather than making a new one. Check it out above.



What I'm getting at is why do the trees seem to be available only in 4, 6, 7 colors?

We know there was at least two waves.

1) One that was only flesh
2) One that provided 8 new colors

But there seems to be some evidence that there was three waves based on four packs (and 28 packs?):

1) Flesh
2) Flesh and color (probably not all 8 colors)
3) All colors (No flesh produced)

Since we have at least one wave during which all 8 colors were being produced, why don't we have a tree with all 8 colors, and why have no trees been found in 5 of the new colors?

I really think it was done on purpose.

Let's assume they only colored a tree with four colors each wave.

Something like this was used when planning to color a tree for the last wave:

1) Use four of the same colors (4 colors)
2) Use four colors, overlapping 1 (7 colors)
3) Use four colors, overlapping 2 (6 colors)

[Soupie]

I realized it was possible for a tree with 5 colors to exist and not be recognized when focusing on parts. (The 5 colors would be overshadowed by the colors of other trees.)

I went through each part and found at least 5 trees that were made in 5 colors.

So the trees are available in 4, 5, 6, and 7 colors!

So the production format might look like this:

2) Use four colors, overlapping 1 (7 colors)
3) Use four colors, overlapping 2 (6 colors)
4) Use four colors, overlapping 3 (5 colors)
5) Use four colors, overlapping 4 (4 colors)

We don't see fewer than 4 colors because trees were colored using at least four colors at a time, and we don't see more than 7 because they always overlapped at least one color.

However, if this were the case, and all the trees had two runs of color, I would expect trees made in four colors to be common (which is not the case).

On the other hand, it's likely that not all trees had two runs in color.

[jkaris]

4 packs
10 packs
28 packs

were all made in 3 versions

All flesh
Half and half
All colored.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I've been looking and trying to figure it out, but I just don't think there is an overall relationship between what colors each tree were made in. Unless someone else can figure it out, I don't think we will will find any relationship. All we will probably know is how many colors were made at a time, but not why they skipped some colors.

I believe that they skipped around colors and trees, just to make sure they had an even lay of colored figures in general. I don't think they had any particular order. But I could be wrong.