385 replies to this topic

[jkaris]

Have you ever accidently found a muscle figure in any of the huge lots of keshis you have purchased from Japan Jon?

Yep, twice. Twice in that many lots isn't very much. One of them had a few colored MUSCLEs (which by MDB stats, were medium in rarity).

[Soupie]

I just reread this thread. I contradict myself at least 20 times in it.

At one point I say the 28-pack poster with 400+ figures is meaningless, at another I point to it as incredibly meaningful.

Also, I made a huge deal about the Eleven being from parts beyond 21, and even speculated about what it might mean, and then just today I say that "I just realized" that they were from parts beyond 21.



In any case, several posts back, KM quotes from a post of Veers saying that it is very likely that Flesh MUSCLEs were made in 1985.

Also, in his same post, he quotes Jkaris two years later saying that part 28 was made in 1986 -- not 1987.

So, the Non-Poster, Parts 15 and 21 MUSCLEs that have been found were likely made at the same time Kinnikuman Parts 15 and 21 were being made.

Also, for what it's worth, I still believe the Eleven were protos for a 2nd flesh wave that was nixed in favor of colored MUSCLEs.

[Personality #9]

Edited by Artimus Prime, 13 April 2006 - 01:45 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

It's possible that they used the same factory to make muscles and Kinkeshi. And also more than likely that they were making Parts 15 through 21 within the release year of muscles.

So it wouldn't be too far fetched to think that because they used the same factory, and because on occasion they may have had to switch a mold back and fourth such as Parts 15 through 21's trees, that there would be the occasional packaging mistake, as well as a forgetful employee who would forget to plug up the non muscle figures again after using the mold for kinkeshi.

This assumption would make a little sense about the plugs, because after the flesh series they started making colored figures, and no doubt they were no longer producing Parts 15 to 21 as kinkeshi. Thus an employee wouldn't have to remove the plugs again for molding Keshi's. This would help explain the lack of Super Rares being found in color. With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

[Soupie]

With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

I do like this theory, but I think it only predicts all Non-Poster sculpts from parts 15-21 being made, not 1-21.

The reason being that only parts 15-21 seem to have overlapped in production use for Kinkeshi and MUSCLE.

Another way of looking at it is like this:

Part 1-14 molds when used to produce flesh MUSCLEs, were used only to produce flesh MUSCLEs = No Non-Poster MUSCLEs from parts 1-14.

Part 1-21 molds when used to produce colored MUSCLEs, were used only to produce colored MUSCLEs = No Non-Poster MUSCLEs made in color from parts 1-21.

Part 15-21 molds when used to produce flesh MUSCLEs and Kinkeshi = Non-Poster MUSCLEs from parts 15-21.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

With this new Super Rare, it is safe to assume that we will eventually find each non muscle sculpt made in muscle plastic.

I do like this theory, but I think it only predicts all Non-Poster sculpts from parts 15-21 being made, not 1-21.

Yeah....Oops. I knew I would mess that up. I didn't say it right, but I think that's what I meant. We should find all non muscle sculpts from parts 15-21 only. Or else I contradict what I say here.

no doubt they were no longer producing Parts 15 to 21 as kinkeshi. Thus an employee wouldn't have to remove the plugs again for molding Keshi's. This would help explain the lack of Super Rares being found in color.

Thanks for catching that Soups.



:had to cover his own arse:

[arforbes]

Here's my two cents...

As far as the possibility of plugs is concerned, I don't think they ever bothered pluggin the molds. That would be way too time consuming and if you look at the tree, you can see the excess plastic that holds the figures together that was obviously discarded by the factories. Why would they take the time to plug a tiny portion of the molds to prevent certain figures from being sculpted. I don't think this ever happened. Thee tree is made up of more plastic than a few figures combined. I believe the figures that did not belong were discarded. It must have cost the factory like a fraction of a cent in extra plastic to fill these molds right? So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded. Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines. Who knows. Of course we can argue about why would the factory take the time to sort these figures? Everything is done on assembly lines, I am sure they could have programmed the machines to remove which figures by locations on the trees...mistakes are bound to occur. A discarded Super Rare falls into the sale bin of muscles and gets mixed in by accident somehow. Possibly falls off a conveyor belt into the wrong batch. This would explain their small numbers, they were mistakes that slipped by and show up every so often in a Muscle package. They had to be released in some sort of packaging, we have just never seen one in a package. The odds of finding one in pacakaging because of their small numbers are slim.

[jkaris]

I agree with Alex on this one. It makes sense that it would be more cost effective to just have the computer pull the non-muscle figures and recycle the plastic.

[Soupie]

So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded. Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines.

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

[arforbes]

So the figures were made, and then removed and discarded.  Some mistakes occured and some non-muscle sculpts got out, or were simply missed by the workers/machines.

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

That is correct, I don't see why we have not yet...maybe they are out there waiting to be discovered. Only time will tell. Or maybe by the time they produced colors they found a more effective means of producing only the figures needed for the Muscle line, since the toyline was dying at the time, maybe they found a way to not waste so much? Now I am contradicting myself.

[jkaris]

If this is the case, we would expect to find Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 and in color.

Think about it. Out of literally MILLIONS, we have found about 20 super rares. 11 of which are more than lilkely a salesman sample. Even using the ratio of MUSCLEs remaining in circulation, that is DAMN good quality control.

While there may have been colored SR MUSCLEs made by accident, the chances that there are any that made it through the QC process is very slim, especially since the ratio of fleshies to colors is so high. We may yet find a colored SR, but I am not holding my breath.

[jkaris]

Matter of fact, if Alex's theory IS correct, then it would be a good assumption, that all super rares were made in the very first run, before someone realized that the machine was not discarding the non-MUSCLE licensed figures, and reprogrammed it. That in itself would eliminate any chance of a colored SR.

However, as I am convinced that my find of 11 were a salesman sample, there may be a colored set out there somewhere too.

Who knows. I wonder if Veers has had any luck with Mattel recently.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I don't even think your 11 were a salesman sample. Since they were all after Part 21 I think they were made by an employee who didn't have anything better to do. They no doubt still had some unused muscle plastic laying around and they also had access to the newer Kinnikuman sculpts.

Also I agree with Jon that the super rares were made in the very VERY first run of muscles. It's quite possible that, just like Fistful of Power, they released a small test run to a select number of wholesale chains within the country before releasing them in full, and they didn't exclude any figures in this run.

I know someone asked this before somewhere, but does any of the unopened Satan Cross 4 packs have the poster offer on the back?

And another point. If they didn't plug up the unwanted sculpts, then why did they even exclude the non muscle sculpts? Remember my Production "Efficiency" theories? It would take up manpower and time to cull out unwanted sculpts. I doubt they had a machine do this. Plugging up the molds wouldn't take long at all and would have been quick. But then again, the people on the line probably knew which figures to pull off the runners and which ones not to, so it may not have been a big deal.

Also there were only like 48 non-muscle sculpts anyway right? That would have just knocked up the set count to about 280. The reason I think plugs were used was because if they weren't we would see other Super Rares just as common as SC. I think someone lost his plug for a while or something. In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

[TheOrgg]

In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

[arforbes]

In fact it could have slipped into his mold and got stuck in his back leg runner, and that's why he didn't come with them.

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

No, I don't believe so.

[Soupie]

Re-Issues

This set was re-issued late 90's early 2000's.

Bandai seems to have chosen 5 trees from four parts. Specifically:

Part 6 Tree 1
Part 7 Tree 4
Part 8 Trees 1 & 3
Part 14 Tree 2

What's interesting is that each of the parts these trees were taken from has 2+ Non-MUSCLE sculpts. However, just as with the MUSCLE line, Non-MUSCLE sculpts do not appear.

How many re-issued sets were there? Are there any Non-MUSCLE sculpts in those sets?

If it turns out that both MUSCLE and the Re-issues are missing the same sculpts, what might that tell us?

I'd be very interested to know if the MUSCLE SC sculpt was re-issued.

[Soupie]

Well, it looks as if there were Non-MUSCLE sculpts from parts 1-21 that were Re-issued in 1998.

For instance, look here on Tortle's site at a painted Re-issue of a Geronimo sculpt. (Not to mention the Brocken sculpt. That Kinnikuman sculpt comes from the 91-1 Kinkeshi part.)

This sculpt is from Part 13 and was not made into a MUSCLE.

So what does this tell us? Well, it tells us the reason why this figure was not made into a MUSCLE in 1985-87 doesn't have anything to do with the sculpt being broken.

Is this true of the other Non-MUSCLE sculpts? (In other words, were their molds fine, and just not used?)

Edited by Soupie, 24 April 2006 - 06:32 PM.

[Soupie]

Does S.C. have markings where his leg runner should be?

I checked my MUSCLE Satan Cross, and I can't find a spot were his legs may have been attached.

I decided to check Naochin's site to see where they were attached on the Kinkeshi version.

Part 21

Is it possible that SC's legs had a mold of their own? If that is the case, it would be very simple for Bandai to not include them -- like other Non-MUSCLE sculpts -- when making the MUSCLE version.

[TheOrgg]

Arn't there Kenkeshi SCs with the back legs attached on a little bit of flash to its leg?

[Soupie]

Yes.

The SC used by TGB for the SR Trilogy, and the one in the picture attached below.

However, I've yet to find a pic of the one from part 21.

Attached Files

•  SCLEGS.jpg   33.05K   20 downloads

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, my Satan Cross has possibly 4 spots that his legs may have been able to attach to. He has 2 spots between his feet, 1 spot on his spike on his helmet, and possibly one in the bevel of his sword(although I think this is just excess). I think the two feet ones are where he was attached to the tree. So I'm thinking his spike maybe. Although it is possible that the legs were infact not attached to him. It's not unlikely, but also it is.

[Soupie]

Mine also has the marks on his inner ankles, and I also think this may be where he was attached to the tree.

Mine also has a little extra on his spike, but it does not look like a place were legs were attached. Besides, that would be an odd spot. I see no markings on his sword.

Furthermore, the Part 21 Satan Cross TGB custom I have came with the rear legs. I've looked over the custom rear legs thoroughly and found no obvious attachment spots. (Yes, they could have been lost in the TGB's mold making process. However, I think they would appear.)

I think someone owning a Kinkeshi or MUSCLE SHA or BHS could speak to whether the attachment spots are visible. (Arforbes already said above he doesn't think there is a mark where legs were attached.)

Or, maybe someone has seen a Kinkeshi part 21 Satan Cross with legs attached.

Edited by Soupie, 22 April 2006 - 05:46 AM.

[Soupie]

Shortly after making the above post, I was scanning Yahoo Japan for a part 21 SC with legs attached. I came across an image of part 23 King 100t with a millstone attached to the elbow of his right arm. I realized that I have a King 100t without his millstone.

I got him out and looked him over. There was no mark on his right elbow. So I thought, maybe we won't find a mark on SC. However, I noticed a clearly visible little mark on his left forearm that I would expect the mark of a removed attachment to look like.

I decided to check Naochin's site. Sure enough, some King 100t's came with the millstone attached to his left forearm.



So, I'm led to believe that a similar mark should easily be found on part 21 Satan Cross if indeed his legs were attached in a similar fashion. (A mark that appears to be missing, at least from MUSCLE versions.)

I will share a picture of the mark on King 100t's forearm to show what it looks like and how noticable it is.

Edited by Soupie, 22 April 2006 - 07:44 AM.