385 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Here's a look at all the Satan Cross sculpts with extra legs (and various attachment points):









It would be very odd if part 21 SC did not have his legs attached.

Also, URS, you had remarked about the marks on MUSCLE Satan Cross's head spike and his feet, saying that it's likely that he was attached to the tree by his feet.

I thought maybe one of his ankle marks were from the tree and perhaps the other from his legs, but notice the dual attachment at the ankles of one of the figures in the image of Arforbes' kinkeshi string attached below. Looks like you're right in that part 21 SC was probably attached to the string by both his ankles.

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•  KinkeshiTree.JPG   243.27K   35 downloads

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Yeah, but you will notice most of the figs are attached by their heads. So maybe the SC was attached to the tree by his head, and his legs were attached to his ankles. Honestly though, until someone shows us a keshi with his legs attached (like Tootsiepops) The world may never know.

Also if they were attached to his ankles that would explain why they would have had to remove them before sticking them in a 4 or 10 pack. But really, if they were sticking anywhere, it would have probably had to be removed, because they are quite big.

[Soupie]

On a somewhat related topic, having been arranging the colored MUSCLEs by parts and trees over the past couple weeks, I have to say I am still completely perplexed.

For instance, there are several Kinnikuman parts that are divided into two trees. Including the Non-MUSCLE sculpts, these parts have 10 and 12 sculpts. However, since one of the sculpts in each part is a Non-MUSCLE sculpt, the two trees break down as 6 and 5, or 5 and 4.

This leads one to believe there is a good reason why one of the sculpts was left out. Because, why arbitrarily turn one entire tree of sculpts into MUSCLEs, but leave one sculpt out of the other tree in the part?

In other words, why not make two trees of 5 or two trees of 6 into MUSCLEs?

It's very tempting to say that one of the molds must have been damaged. However, part 13, which consists of 12 kinnikuman sculpts, is missing one effing sculpt -- a perfectly cool Geronimo sculpt.

So, instead of making the two trees of 6 and 6, they made a tree of 6 and a tree of five. What's more, the Geronimo mold does not seem to have been broken as new figures made from the sculpt were re-issued in 1998.



Were the Re-issued figured made of a new plastic? Is there any chance that the re-issued figures were simply left-over kinkeshi? If so, there would be the possibility that the Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds were indeed broken.

If not, what would lead Bandai/Mattel to, in seemingly random fashion, leave 1 to 2 sculpts out of certain parts? (Keep in mind that some parts had all the figures made into MUSCLEs.)

Some parts have 3 trees and 1 Non-MUSCLE sculpt, some have 2 trees and 3 Non-MUSCLE sculpts. There does not appear to be any rhyme or reason.

Barring the three Brocken sculpts, the Non-MUSCLE sculpts are interesting, unique, and seemingly no different than the MUSCLE sculpts. (I've attached an image showing all of them from parts 1-21 below.)

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•  NonMUSCLESCULPTS.jpg   211.84K   37 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 22 April 2006 - 03:30 PM.

[jkaris]

Re-issues (and the 1991 series) are all similar to MUSCLE plastic, but softer and glossier.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Re-issues (and the 1991 series) are all similar to MUSCLE plastic, but softer and glossier.

Weren't the copyright marks different somehow as well on the reissues?

[arforbes]

Re-issues (and the 1991 series) are all similar to MUSCLE plastic, but softer and glossier.

Weren't the copyright marks different somehow as well on the reissues?

I believe they were the same.

[jkaris]

Anything from Parts 1-25 had YSNT with the B encircled. Part 26-30 and the 1991 series 1-3 had YSNTB (no circle). Most reissues had the same stamp as the originals, with a few exceptions, where the original indented stamp was filled in and a new raised stamp was added.

Concerning the Part 21 SC figure. I have never seen one with the back legs attached. Also, looking at both the figure and his legs, they both have similar sprue marks on the inside of their feet, which leads me to believe that they were seperate molds on the same tree.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Concerning the Part 21 SC figure. I have never seen one with the back legs attached. Also, looking at both the figure and his legs, they both have similar sprue marks on the inside of their feet, which leads me to believe that they were seperate molds on the same tree.

Makes sense to me.

[arforbes]

Anything from Parts 1-25 had YSNT with the B encircled. Part 26-30 and the 1991 series 1-3 had YSNTB (no circle). Most reissues had the same stamp as the originals, with a few exceptions, where the original indented stamp was filled in and a new raised stamp was added.

Concerning the Part 21 SC figure. I have never seen one with the back legs attached. Also, looking at both the figure and his legs, they both have similar sprue marks on the inside of their feet, which leads me to believe that they were seperate molds on the same tree.

I wonder why this figure was originally cast as separate molds, but on the same tree...that is interesting to see this figure as the only 2-Piece like that.

[jkaris]

Possible that since the second piece was so much larger than the others up to that point, they were worried that having it branch off the SC figure wouldn't fill it ll the way. I dunno, just a guess.

[jkaris]

Here is another bit of speculation for you. What if each series mold was really one large mold, but with multiple trees? One main port for the plastic to flow in, but then it would branch to the different trees. Plug one of the secondary pipes and don't produce that tree?

Just a thought.

I wish we had someone on this board who was familiar/experienced with injection molding of PVC figures.

[arforbes]

Here is another bit of speculation for you. What if each series mold was really one large mold, but with multiple trees? One main port for the plastic to flow in, but then it would branch to the different trees. Plug one of the secondary pipes and don't produce that tree?

Just a thought.

I wish we had someone on this board who was familiar/experienced with injection molding of PVC figures.

I have thought about that too, and that is a possibility that has crossed my mind as well. I just wish that someone that worked at one of the factories would join the boards and shed some light on how they were made.

[Soupie]

I wonder why this figure was originally cast as separate molds, but on the same tree...that is interesting to see this figure as the only 2-Piece like that.

Surprisingly, part 21 is the first Kinnikuman part featuring figures with multiple parts. Thus, part 21 Satan Cross is the first SC sculpt with legs. Maybe they learned as they went that legs could, indeed, be attached to future SC sculpts.

Hm, a quick check of MUSCLE part 21 reveals that there are 13 sculpts and two trees, meaning they would divide up as 7 and six.

If we assume Satan Cross' legs had a mold of their own, there would be 14 sculpts and the trees would be an even 7 and seven.

What if each series mold was really one large mold, but with multiple trees? One main port for the plastic to flow in, but then it would branch to the different trees. Plug one of the secondary pipes and don't produce that tree?

What would this ultimately mean as far as Non-MUSCLE sculpts and colored figures?

[jkaris]

What if each series mold was really one large mold, but with multiple trees? One main port for the plastic to flow in, but then it would branch to the different trees. Plug one of the secondary pipes and don't produce that tree?

What would this ultimately mean as far as Non-MUSCLE sculpts and colored figures?

I don't know. I was just speculating. Although it is possible that the non-MUSCLE figures could have been on their own trees. If the large mold were seperated that way, it would make sense that they could have smaller trees.

But like I said, just random speculation.

[TheOrgg]

How did the Part 21 Cross's legs come with the Kenkeshi? If it "took over" the spot of another figure in the capsule, it might indeed be a separate sculpt.


If the "Separate Entry" theory is true, my memory of seeing what looked like a cut-in-the-middle MUSCLE in a 4-pack may actually be true, and I as an ignorant kid may've passed up a Super Rare.

Take a close look at any Mississippi MUSCLE lots, as you might see a Super Rare SC Legs-peg.

Should we start classifying SC's legs as a "MUSCLE Super Rare Potentiality?"

[jkaris]

How did the Part 21 Cross's legs come with the Kenkeshi? If it "took over" the spot of another figure in the capsule, it might indeed be a separate sculpt.

I've never even seen a part 21 capsule, so I can't be much help there. But the part 24 SC, which had the backside attached to the figure, was squeezed into the capsules with 2 others.

[TheOrgg]

...but that doesn't help. Those are actually ATTACHED.

If the legs wern't actually attached, each piece might be treated as a separate figure.

[matthewf1tz]

I've searched the board in case a similar question has been raised already but can't find it so I thought I'd ask....

It's very tempting to say that one of the molds must have been damaged. However, part 13, which consists of 12 kinnikuman sculpts, is missing one effing sculpt -- a perfectly cool Geronimo sculpt

Is the Geronimo sculpt exactly the same size in both cases? It crossed my mind as I was looking at Naochin's Kinkeshi Archives here:

Different sizes

The translation isn't too clear (to me) and unfortunately I don't read Japanese but is it saying that the smaller one exists because the smaller figure's mold was taken from an actual figure (possibly because the original was damaged?)?

I wondered if this would explain the slightly smaller figures that came with the wrestling ring as they could possibly have been made at a later date until I remembered the difference in the belt buckle on Kinnikuman, although I'm sure that could be explained away. I remember seeing some really old posts that TGB has no 'shrinkage' so therefore bandai shouldn't have had any either but who knows....

Matt

Edited by matthewf1tz, 23 April 2006 - 03:39 PM.

[jkaris]

1. Your new signature pic is kewl as hell!
2. I think TB gets no shrinkage becuse of his use of RTV plastic (room temperature curing). But for the Kineshi, they were injection molded, and I believe that IM stuff has a certain shrinkage percentage.

[Soupie]

...but that doesn't help. Those are actually ATTACHED.

Sure it does!

We must know how the other SC sculpts were packaged in order to know if the part 21 Satan Cross' packaging was unique.

In other words, if all SC sculpts with extra legs are packaged the same, then part 21 SC's packaging tells us nothing.

[matthewf1tz]

But for the Kineshi, they were injection molded, and I believe that IM stuff has a certain shrinkage percentage.

so a slim possibility then as to why some figures are only found as Super-rares if the moulds broke after production started but before the poster was designed?

Edited by matthewf1tz, 24 April 2006 - 02:16 PM.

[Soupie]

Is the Geronimo sculpt exactly the same size in both cases? It crossed my mind as I was looking at Naochin's Kinkeshi Archives here:

Different sizes

Very interesting!

It is surmised that [left] is a "yuan model" cast and the right is a "mass-produced type" cast.

Although two or more metallic molds exist in KIN 消 in order to respond to the demand of a market so that it may know (with a runner)

It supports this that the cast with which a runner's positions differ in KIN 消 exists,

The "yuan model" which produces the first cast is required to manufacture two or more of the "mass-produced types."

This "yuan model" cast of the feature is somewhat larger than a "mass-produced type" cast.

I understood Naochin to be theorizing that the figure on the left is a prototype made from a "Yuan Model" that is then used to make one or two metallic molds to be used to mass produce the figures. (His argument that two mass-production molds were sometimes created is to point out sculpts, such as King 100t, that come with runners on the right and left.)

Bandai could have certainly tweaked the belt buckle of 141 Kinnukman and than used it to make a new "mass-production" mold producing slightly smaller figures.

If Naochin's theory is correct, we can see that the resulting figure will be slightly smaller. In fact, that is about the size difference between 141 and the ring figure...

I'd love to get my hands on the Non-MUSCLE sculpt re-issues. Hell, I'd love to see pictures of all of them. I don't even know which sculpts were re-issued.

Until then, I can't say whether there is a size difference that might point to a "recycled" sculpt.

so a slim possibility then as to why some figures are only found as Super-rares if the moulds broke after production started but before the poster was designed?

Well, notice that the only Non-Poster MUSCLEs that have been found were simultaneously being made as Kinkeshi.

So the Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds 1-14 could have been broken and easily left off the poster, but considering, again, that some Non-Poster sculpts from parts 15-21 have been found as MUSCLEs and were mass-produced as Kinkeshi (mold obviously not broken) I'm not sure why they would not have made it onto the poster.

[Which raises a seperate question: If the part 15-21 molds were definitely available to be used for mass-production of Kinkeshi at the same time MUSCLEs were being made, why not mass-produce all part 15-21 as MUSCLEs (instead of the few we have found)? This points toward a different reason for the Non-MUSCLE sculpts other than broken molds.]

In any case, it's a brilliant idea, I think. A simple proof of this theory would be to see if the re-issued, Non-MUSCLE sculpts are indeed smaller. This may indicate that their original molds were broken, and new molds were produced for them using a mass-produced figure (rather than the original prototype), resulting in an identical sculpt that is slightly smaller than the original. Definitely worth looking into.

Edited by Soupie, 24 April 2006 - 06:02 PM.

[Soupie]

Here's is an image of the mark on King 100t's arm leftover from having his millstone attached via a runner.

This is the telltale runner mark that Kinkeshi and MUSCLE Satan Cross appear to be missing.

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•  King100t.jpg   83.36K   15 downloads

[jkaris]

Some runners were extremely thin. For instance, the Pt 24 SC has a paper thin runner. Removed it is barely noticeable and just looks like some trimmed off flashing.

[jkaris]

Hey Soupie,


Looks like your hunch was correct.

I was looking at my painted re-issue Pt 1 Brocken, and his flesh counterpart (from the same packs, in the hidden area), and they have the raised trademark, and they are also smaller. So it looks like they re-molded them from the original figures (not the original molds) and the re-issues from the painted 2 packs are smaller.