385 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Bandai (the original kinkeshi maker) puts out their re-issue set:
http://store.kinniku...tems.cfm?id=137
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the standard indented YSNT  or YSNT B

This led me to believe that they were normal! So when you then later said they were raised, I was confused.

I don't own any of these figures! I'm basing everything off what you tell us.

I really believe the answer is sitting right in front of us!

[jkaris]

Bandai (the original kinkeshi maker) puts out their re-issue set:
http://store.kinniku...tems.cfm?id=137
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the standard indented YSNT  or YSNT B

This led me to believe that they were normal! So when you then later said they were raised, I was confused.

I don't own any of these figures! I'm basing everything off what you tell us.

I really believe the answer is sitting right in front of us!

shizznit, that was my typo, sorry.

[Soupie]

Wow, here as an absolutely fascinating forum discussion about "gate blocking" during the injection molding process:

Blocking Cavities

Considering the Kinkeshi string that Arforbes found, which consists of a group of sculpts, 16 to be exact, it would be considered a 16 cavity tool, or mold.

The main reason, interesting enough, for gate blocking is broken cavities, or in our case, a mold/sculpt that has gone bad.

The general concensus in the thread seems to be don't block one cavitiy of a multi-cavity mold as it affects the mold's balance which in turn affects the flow of material to the other cavities and can potentially damage the entire mold. If you do block off a cavity, it should only be a short term fix.

In all cases, they say get the mold fixed... or, I would assume, don't use the mold.

This most likely means that Bandai did not block off/plug molds to stop certain figures from being made.

I've been wondering if the "trees" were one solid mold of 8-20 cavities (remember, two of each sculpt) or a puzzle of many individual molds placed together.

That would be something else to ask a mass production, injection mold specialist.

If Bandai would not have used the plug technique, and we know certain sculpts are missing, it likely means one of two things:

1) The physical "trees" are made up of individual molds all placed together. Therefore, a Non-MUSCLE sculpt could be easily left out.

2) The physical "trees" are one solid 8-20 cavity mold, and the Non-MUSCLE sculpts, like #161, are individual molds.

[Soupie]

Here's one particularly interesting post:

(Keep Arforbe's Kinkeshi string in mind while reading it.)

I don't think you can match fill rates to all cavities when a cavity is blocked (in most cases). For example, take a 4 cavity H pattern mold, primary runner going vertical and then horizontal into the secondary runner and parts. Block the top left part. No matter what you do, the flow rate in the top right part will not match that of the flow rate in the bottom two cavities. This is because the flow rate is split in half between the two cavities on the bottom, but the top flow is not split in half. Granted the flow will split initially within the runner depending on where you plug the flow, but as the flow goes into the cavity, the flow in the unplugged top cavity will double. Now go to an 8, 16, 32 cavity mold and it can get much worse when blocking cavities, but sometimes it is another necessary evil.

[Soupie]

Yes, someone finally responded!

yes is possible that the molds could no longer be in running condition. hmmm maybe a family mold(1 mold, many parts) with blocked cavitys. if i were making a bunch of 2 inch things i might have used cavity and core inserts on a few identical mold bases. Maybe marketing didn't think some figures would sell in the states?? i have decided this is an important research topic, so i will learn more......

[Soupie]

I posted Arforbe's Kinkeshi string image, and here's what he had to say:

missed the pic the first time. those are sweet by the way. So it is a family mold with a peice o junk fishbone runner. a mold like this could see very large scrap rates after lots of runs, but these parts are clearly low tol. so hmmmmmm.

the final thought (with no facts to support)

In 1982 Ping Smith designed 21 molds that each produced 15-20 figures. Becasue of crap runners on famliy molds 3 of these molds produced high scrap rates but nobody knew why. Because of the huge demand for each figure and the entire set these scrap rates were acceptable.

When offered in the states the high scrap molds were not used and the 45 odd figures were lost never to be seen again. somebody made an extra buck and all americans were left wanting.

ha what a story

Injection Mold Damage Thread

I'm not sure what "low tol" means...

[matthewf1tz]

I'm not sure what "low tol" means...

I guess it means that sculpts for the figures on Alex's string (and therefore MUSCLE/kinnikuman kinkeshi in general?) would not be the type to cause a massive amount of wear and tear on molds.

It wil be interesting to see how his answers evolve with the extra information you have given him. Is it worth asking him whether a harder plastic (MUSCLE versus Kinkeshi - someone mentioned earlier in this thread that they wondered if this would make a difference I think) would have an impact on this 'tol'?

Would the part of your earlier post about blocked cavities affecting flow rate perhaps explain why both molds of the same sculpt would be blocked on one tree, therefore only needing one to get damaged stop the sculpt being produced on that particular tree?

Edited by matthewf1tz, 02 May 2006 - 02:18 PM.

[Soupie]

Would the part of your earlier post about blocked cavities affecting flow rate perhaps explain why both molds of the same sculpt would be blocked on one tree, therefore only needing one to get damaged stop the sculpt being produced on that particular tree?

That's exactly what I was thinking!

No matter what you do, the flow rate in the top right part will not match that of the flow rate in the bottom two cavities. This is because the flow rate is split in half between the two cavities on the bottom, but the top flow is not split in half.

A "family mold" is defined as:

* a mold which produces non-identical parts simultaneously.

* A multi-cavity mold where each of the cavities forms one of the component parts of an assembled finished part.

From what I've found via a quick search of the net, a family mold is one solid piece! That means the Non-MUSCLE molds likely couldn't be easily removed...

So the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were either:

1) Cavity blocked

2) Made and thrown out

3) Their own seperate molds

A quick read of the Injection Molding site indicates that mold designers and part makers are super concerned with cost effeciency (which we already knew). I've always doubted that the figures were made, and then thrown out. That in no way is cost effective...

As far as the Non-MUSCLE sculpts being their own molds... this does not explain why they were not made into MUSCLEs, and remember #161, which was on its own, was made into a MUSCLE.

Cavity blocked... interesting thought, here:

What happens if one of the damaged molds/cavities is near the middle of the family mold? That's right, it gets cavity blocked... but so do all the other cavities after it. So if one mold goes bad, you potentially lose 2-3 more.

Another thought: Why do so many trees seem to be missing one to two figures?

Perhaps because those were the sculpts at the ends of the family mold... The MUSCLE plastic could not get to them very well, resulting in shizznitty parts. Thus, they were evnetually cavity blocked.

And as matthewf1tz said, it is also explained how one mold going bad wipes out a pair -- both had to be blocked to insure balance!

I guess it means that sculpts for the figures on Alex's string (and therefore MUSCLE/kinnikuman kinkeshi in general?) would not be the type to cause a massive amount of wear and tear on molds.

I'm thinking "low tol." means "low tolerance." Would it make sense to say the Kinkeshi sculpts were low tolerance?

Edited by Soupie, 02 May 2006 - 03:09 PM.

[jkaris]

I posted Arforbe's Kinkeshi string image, and here's what he had to say:

missed the pic the first time. those are sweet by the way. So it is a family mold with a peice o junk fishbone runner. a mold like this could see very large scrap rates after lots of runs, but these parts are clearly low tol. so hmmmmmm.

the final thought (with no facts to support)

In 1982 Ping Smith designed 21 molds that each produced 15-20 figures. Becasue of crap runners on famliy molds 3 of these molds produced high scrap rates but nobody knew why. Because of the huge demand for each figure and the entire set these scrap rates were acceptable.

When offered in the states the high scrap molds were not used and the 45 odd figures were lost never to be seen again. somebody made an extra buck and all americans were left wanting.

ha what a story

Injection Mold Damage Thread

I'm not sure what "low tol" means...

That is a great theory he has, but based on the tree info that you and URS have found, the non-MUSCLE sculpt figs are on the same trees as regular MUSCLE sculpts.

I would think low tol is low tolerance, or maybe he meant to arse another "o" and make it low tool.

[jkaris]

Another thought: Why do so many trees seem to be missing one to two figures?

Perhaps because those were the sculpts at the ends of the family mold... The MUSCLE plastic could not get to them very well, resulting in shizznitty parts. Thus, they were evnetually cavity blocked.

And as matthewf1tz said, it is also explained how one mold going bad wipes out a pair -- both had to be blocked to insure balance!

Now that sounds good!

If the mold were damaged, and they had to block off both side, that makes sense.

Hypothetical:

If they had one tree mold for each part (which might be likely, as expensive as it is to create/tool a mold [$10,000+]),

And, if the damaged sculpt was at the end of the tree,

And, if they did the first few runs, before noticing that the non-MUSCLE molds were junked on one side,

And, if they decided to just toss the good side figures in to the mix of the rest, and plug the mold from then out,

And, if MUSCLEs were run AFTER the PArt 21 Kinkeshi run was completed,

THAT would explain the SR figures being found in perfect condition (only one side was damaged), and the lack of those sculpts from that point forward.


But in the case of a damaged mold, do they block off the runner at that point, or just the gates on either side?

[Soupie]

Yeah, I tried to explain that to him in the thread. We'll see if he replies.

As for "low tol." her probably did mean low tolerance, check this out:

Plastic Component Design Considerations

It is important in plastic component design to maintain satisfaction with the product and to keep the cost low. One thing to do is design a feature, like an angled surface, to aid in removing the plastic component from the mold. It is also important to specify and tailor the design of the plastic part to particular tolerance levels. A low tolerance plastic part usually won't cut it in an industrial assembly.

Also, when I was looking up family molds on the net, I mostly found negative things. Seems they are really inconsistent, and, as the above dude said, produce a lot of shizznitty parts...

[Soupie]

But in the case of a damaged mold, do they block off the runner at that point, or just the gates on either side?

I've attached a picture of how I think a family mold/tree would be plugged to close off a faulty cavity.

Red: If this one cavity goes bad, we lose 6 cavities all together, but 3 sculpts total.

Green: If the plastic wouldn't flow to these guys, they get blocked on the end.

Attached Files

•  FamilyMold.jpg   122.09K   29 downloads

Edited by Soupie, 02 May 2006 - 03:44 PM.

[Soupie]

I see what you're saying, jkaris. You think they may be plugged at the blue dots...

Attached Files

•  FamilyMold.jpg   122.44K   31 downloads

[Soupie]

Here is how parts 15 and 21 might be laid out with their Non-MUSCLE sculpts (totally hypothetical):

Part 15:

Tree One: (5)

177 | 178 | 180 | 181 | Black Menuri

Tree Two: (5)

DE | 165 | 167 | 179 | DM

Part 21:

Tree One: (8)

011 | 022 | 221 | 223 | 224 | 228 | 231 | New Ashuraman

Tree Two: (8)

Robinmask | SC LEGS | SC | 222 | 227 | SHA | BHS | Dr. BOMB

Edited by Soupie, 02 May 2006 - 06:10 PM.

[matthewf1tz]

Here is how parts 15 and 21 might be laid out with their Non-MUSCLE sculpts (totally hypothetical

it's a shame that it has to be hypothetical but without the highly unlikely occurance of more strings/trees like Alex's turning up we can only speculate.

It's a shame (and to be honest I find it very surprising) that Alex's string is not layed out in number (kinnikuman not MUSCLE) order, instead it seems totally random at:

359, 361, 357, 358, 360, 362, 358 (different figure to first 358*), 363

* these numbers are from Naochin's Archive so I presume they are correct, I don't think this number list has been posted elsewhere in this thread

If they were in kinnikuman number order and the non MUSCLE sculpts appeared at the ends like Soupie has speculated I think the mystery would be solved! What a shame they're not

As for "low tol." her probably did mean low tolerance

yes I think you and Jkaris are right

Edited by matthewf1tz, 03 May 2006 - 05:31 AM.

[Soupie]

I explained that whole mold families appear not have been scraped, just certian sculpts within each mild family. (He doesn't seem to have noticed that each mold family has doubles of each sculpt.)

In any case, his reply seems to indicate that cavity blocking is certainly a viable explanation for the Non-MUSCLE sculpt and, as Jkaris speculated, the Super Rares:

high scrap cavities were blocked then.

so 1000 shots get you 1000 of five of the six peices and 750(maybe less) of the high scrap sixth cavity. so instead of running 250 extra shots for each cavity you block the sixth lose a figure, cut cycle and minimize scrap.

As we know from the other discussion of cavity bloacking, Bandai probably had to resort to blocking both sculpts so as not to ruin the overall balance of the mold.

All I've read of family molds says they have high scrap rates. What's more, family molds are carefully designed and tested with the final part in mind. In other words, the Kinkeshi molds would have been designed and balanced based off of Kinkeshi plastic. As URS has speculated, and because it is a variable, the newer MUSCLE plastic may indeed be at fault.

If scrap rates were high to begin with due to it being a family mold using an inferior "fishbone" runner, I'm sure introducing MUSCLE plastic only made things worse.

If they were in kinnikuman number order and the non MUSCLE sculpts appeared at the ends like Soupie has speculated I think the mystery would be solved!

Well, one other potential -- potential -- source of information might be the MUSCLE numbering. I've noticed that many trees have several figures in MUSCLE number order, but also have 1-3 higher, out of order numbers.

I'm not sure what this means, but since so many trees do have several figures in numerical order, I don't think the MUSCLE numbers are entirely random.

Perhaps the numbered the MUSCLEs according to parts, and then when certain sculpts became problimatic, they had to renumber -- or something like that.

[Soupie]

For example:

Part 15:

Tree One: (5)

177 | 178 | 180 | 181 | Black Menuri

Tree Two: (5)

DE | 165 | 167 | 179 | DM

Pattern... or randomness?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, while I was breaking up the trees and parts a while back, I noticed that a good chunk of figures from the same part trees usually showed up in the same area of the poster. I don't think there is any real relevance to it though. As there are also a good chunk that are completely random. So if anything I would call it a "Consistently Random Pattern".




Hey! My number of posts is the same as Matthewf1tz's Member Number!

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 03 May 2006 - 04:33 PM.

[Soupie]

If the faulty fill theory of Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds is correct, as the Kinkeshi line doesn't appear to have had the same problem, it's likely that MUSCLE plastic is to blame.

Here's a brief article about trouble shooting one particular mold fill problem. It turns out that the resin/plastic was to blame for the fill problem. The solution was to use a resin that had better flow for the mold:

Restricted Flow Mystery

Restricted flow getting you down? Maybe it’s the material.

...

Reduce Viscosity

Now what to do? The flow path checked out and I couldn’t put my finger on something that would be the magic action to correct all of the molder’s complaints. I decided that a change in material would get the job done. The 8-melt polypropylene they were using would have to be replaced with a higher-melt-flow product. I looked through a material database and found a 20-melt product that still retained the impact, tensile, and stiffness of the 8-melt material.

The new material would provide better flow to fill and pack the part like the customer wanted. When I encounter warp on a polyethylene or polypropylene part, I find that going to an easier-flow material gets rid of the warp or the tendency of a part to buckle halfway between the gate and end-of-fill areas. The 20-melt material would also let them reduce the barrel melt temperatures a bit, say some 20 deg F, which in turn would give them the opportunity to speed up the cycle a few seconds.

...

I don't know if a firmer plastic -- like MUSCLE plastic -- has a higher viscosity than a softer plastic -- like Kinkeshi. Perhaps TGB would know.

In any case, with the above in mind, and everything else discussed, I think it is highly likely that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts may be a result of Bandai using the new MUSCLE plastic.

[Soupie]

Whether the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were not filling properly due to the MUSCLE plastic, or the Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds/cavities became damaged, the next question is whether there is a realistic possibility that Bandai resorted to cavity blocking.

Everything I've read on the Web seems to indidcate that cavitiy blocking is taboo and a horrible solution to any multi-cavity mold problems.

However, companies do resort to cavity blocking under extreme and special circumstances.

Furthermore, as Jkaris speculated, it seems that when cavity blocking is employed, a cavity is blocked at the gate, rather than the runner (as I speculated). Blocking a cavity produces enough trama, if one were to plug the runner, the thing would probably explode!

Tooling Corner: To block, or not to block.

How do I block off a cavity?” is in one sense a silly question, yet in another it is perfectly logical. Experienced folks in the industry would never ask a question like this in the first place.

...

[The boss] has been informed (for this example) that the part in cavity number 5 in an eight-cavity mold got stuck. The part and cavity got crushed when the machine closed with full clamp. For this example we’ll ignore the fact that the setup allowed this damage to occur because the mold protection system was set too high, disabled, or ignored. Here’s his logic: Block off the mortally wounded cavity and run on seven cavities to complete the run and meet the JIT delivery deadline. Therefore, asking how to block off a cavity is a logical and valid question.

...

Now to the technical side: Unfortunately, people do block off cavities. But, for some reason, they never take into account that the shot size got proportionately smaller from this action. It is like trying to push 8 quarts into a 7-quart basket. It first unbalances the mold—more force will be exerted at the peak of injection on one section of the mold and not on another because of the blockage. This is why blocked cavities usually result in an increase in flash on the remaining cavities.

Increases in scrap also prolong the run time. Unbalanced molds come out of alignment. You can see the wear on the guide pins by running unbalanced molds. Over-packing not only causes flash, it also changes molding stresses. Molding stresses determine dimensions. Our off-spec parts also increase run times until this situation is remedied. This means you’ve also messed up your Cp (process) and CpKs (process constants).

...

There is also the issue of pride in workmanship (not yours, the mold builder’s). You’ve pounded something into the gate, then removed it and sent the mold off for repairs. Little did you know that pounding something in then removing it has opened the gate size.

...

So, when and how do you block a cavity? Don’t!! Fix the mold. There are rare instances that can recommend this practice, but I’ll keep them secret along with the technique for not losing money or destroying the mold. If you block a cavity you might as well burn your paycheck. At least that way your company won’t lose too much money.

A couple thoughts about the "special circumstances and secret technique."

1) The Bandai/Mattel situation was special. Since Mattel wasn't concerned about the Kinnikuman storyline, a missing sculpt was not a big deal for the MUSCLE toyline.

2) Since Bandai had already used the family molds to make the Kinkeshi line, plugging certain cavities and permanently "ruining" the molds wasn't a concern. I suppose Bandai figured they would never need the Non-MUSCLE sculpts again. (And it appears that they didn't.)

Other supporting data that the molds were permanently blocked is the missing sculpts in the colored wave and the reissues.

3) The author mentions a technique that would not destroy the mold. My uneducated guess would be that he is referring to blocking another cavity to maintain mold balance thus reducing stress on it. As the MUSCLEs were mass produced, undue stress on the mold would have been a concern.

So it is highly likely that Bandai took this precaution by simply blocking off both of the sculpt molds.

There may have even been instances when Bandai was forced to block of two additional cavities on the other end to insure overall balance, but that is just speculation.

However, once again it seems it is reasonable to assume that Bandai did indeed resort to cavity blocking to produce the MUSCLE toyline.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, he mentioned blocking a mold would increase stress on the mold, because they would still be trying to jam the same amount of material into the mold. He gave the example of trying to shove 8 quarts of material into a 7 quart container. So my specualation is that when a sculpt became damaged, and needed to be blocked on the runner, they could have regauged the due amount of needed material to successfully fill the mold out, without shuving to much or to less in the mold. It only makes sense that they would have different settings for each mold, since they are all different. So it also makes sense that they had injection machines that could easily be set to the desired pressure, and volume of material used for injection. Mattel and Bandai were in the business for a long time, so no doubt they had experts working at their factories. I'm sure they were smart enough to fix problems once they found them.

Also, I'm curious and want to check out which sculpts were made into Exogini, and cosmics, etc. Does anyone know exactly which sculpts were cast in these lines? Knowing which ones were, may reveal whether mold damage was plausible, if those respective lines were produced After Muscles were. Let me know.

[gilgar]

Exogini/Cosmix likely made their own molds since they're essentially bootlegs. It is possible they could have got hold of old Bandai molds ala the Argentinian Muky versions of Hot Wheels cars rumored to be made from old Hot Wheels molds.

As I recall, Exogini.com shows them all.

[Soupie]

Tortle also covers them pretty extensively: Exogini

As you can see, Exoginis are slightly smaller than American MUSCLEs or Kinnikumans. Also, their sculpts are of a noticably poorer quality. In this example, the Exogini's frill is less defined and its details are a little fuzzy. Additionally, the familiar "Y/S*N*T" is missing from the Exoginis...

Comparison Shot

Tortle also says that Exogini seem to have been released at the same time as MUSCLE/Kinnikuman. It's pretty clear that they are bootlegs, and since they were released at the same time as MUSCLE/Kin, and the fact that they're smaller, means that they were made from mass produced figs.

[Soupie]

So my specualation is that when a sculpt became damaged, and needed to be blocked on the runner, they could have regauged the due amount of needed material to successfully fill the mold out, without shuving to much or to less in the mold.  It only makes sense that they would have different settings for each mold, since they are all different.  So it also makes sense that they had injection machines that could easily be set to the desired pressure, and volume of material used for injection.

I agree that Bandai would know that since a cavity was blocked they would have to reduce the amount of resin shot into the mold.

Even with this adjustment, however, it seems as if they would have had to balance the mold by blocking another cavity. (I'm not sure if you were saying that they didn't...)

For example, take a 4 cavity H pattern mold, primary runner going vertical and then horizontal into the secondary runner and parts. Block the top left part. No matter what you do, the flow rate in the top right part will not match that of the flow rate in the bottom two cavities. This is because the flow rate is split in half between the two cavities on the bottom, but the top flow is not split in half.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

There are 40 sculpts in the Exogini line.
Below are my tree results for Exogini. Complete means the whole Muscle tree was used. All the Non-Muscle Sculpts are still missing from this line as well as a GREAT number of the Muscle sculpts. But I believe these were not just your ordinary bootlegs. I think that the company who made Exogini GiG, didn't rip them off, but simply purchased the molds from Bandai or Mattel. I figure this because Exogini came out in late 87 or 88 I think. Which was after Muscles were finished. I also figure this since Part 2's trees are complete. The majority of the rest are not, so it's reasonable to assume they made their own molds with the last surviving sculpts that survived the Kinkeshi and Muscle lines. GiG got Sloppy Thirds so to speak. Also you will see that GiG released two later Exogini series which were knockoffs of two other small figure lines, such as the Panosh Ninjas being in Series 2, and in 97-98 they had a third series knocked off from another minor toy line, that I'm unsure if it reached the U.S. and who's name escapes me at the moment. My initial plan was to see if the Non-Muscle sculpts were still missing, and whether or not a large number of Muscle sculpts were as well. So it's feesible to say that the majority of the molds were shot by the time the Kinkeshi reissues were made.

Part 1 -1 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=220 Missing Muscle Sculpts 27/28/39/41/55/93/123/156
Tree2=35/46 Missing Muscle Sculpts 20/23/31/33/36/60/61/82

Part 2 -3 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=17/21/26/43/44/54/67/103 Complete
Tree2=10/13/24/25/38/48/49/51/53 Complete

Part 3 -1 Non-Muscle Sculpt
Tree3=161 Complete

Part 4
Tree1=6 Missing Muscle Sculpts 5/12/52/57/59/63/74/226/230

Part 5 -6 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=71 Missing Muscle Sculpts 73/75
Tree3=64/72/90/232 Missing Muscle Sculpt 76

Part 6 -2 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=70/78/91 Complete

Part 7 -2 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=84/95 Complete

Part 8 -6 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=149 Missing Muscle Sculpts 1/151/152/154

Part 13 -3 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=30/96 Missing Muscle Sculpts 14/34/58/111
Tree2=56 Missing Muscle Sculpts 15/16/29/40

Part 14 -2 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree2=110 Missing Muscle Sculpts 85/108/112/113/116

Part 16
Tree1=183 Missing Muscle Sculpts 50/163/164/166/168

Part 20 -2 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=216 Missing Muscle Sculpts 211/215/225

Part 21 -6 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Tree1=22 Missing Muscle Sculpts 11/221/223/224/228/231