140 replies to this topic

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

My brain stopped working after your second post.

Can you combine all that stuff into one easy to understand post?

[Soupie]

Sure. Look for it later tonite.

[Soupie]

Okay, here are the main ideas I addressed in each of the above posts (which did all deal with different ideas).

(1) We can be certain the non-MUSCLE sculpts were left out for a specific reason

(2) If we find a tree, like the one arforbes found, that has all non-MUSCLE sculpts on it from one of the parts, we can assume the same for all non-MUSCLE sculpts

(3) Perhaps SC's 2nd set of legs were part of the same (potential) mold as the other part 21 non-MUSCLE sculpts

(4) If part 21 SC was indeed divided between two family molds, that could explain why he was not on the poster but had a full flesh run

[meatcutta78]

(3) Perhaps SC's 2nd set of legs were part of the same (potential) mold as the other part 21 non-MUSCLE sculpts

I for one want to belive this but considering what has been found so far,
I think this would have been something that would have been found already.
Call me crazy!

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Not really Meaty. He is implying that his legs were on say the the same tree that BHS, SHA, etc. were on, and that his legs may very well be super rare. I don't know about this really. SC is by far the most annoying anomaly in all of the past, present, and hopefully not future discussions about Super Rares and their origins.

1.) He is a 2 piece figure.
2.) He is amazingly common in his own right.
3.) He has not been found in any color other than Flesh, which really is mind boggling! (WAIT!) ****
4.) He is not pictured on the Poster.
5.) He belongs to a part where figures are split up, being that Half of the sculpts were official Super COMMON figures, and the other half proving to have been made in extremely limited Super Rare runs! Satan Cross finds himself stuck in the middle, with no other figure from the line showing any common characteristics in scarcity!


****Footnote for point #3!!!! I just had an epiphany! We have just discussed the molding process with Alex in, I believe, another topic. We are quite aware of mold variations within the muscle world, where one figure of a sculpt (say #1) may have a sprue coming out of his head, yet the a different figure of #1 would have the sprue coming out of his foot! What if!!! WHAT IFFFF!!!!!! What if!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now listen to me!!!

What if Most tree molds had more than 1 copy, maybe 2 or 3 copies! 3 of the same exact mold. Yet What if the Satan Cross sculpt from Part 21 was only on 1, or even only 2 of the three molds! Maybe on the third mold they left him off for some reason!

This would possibly end up doing the following!!!

1.) He would be slightly scarcer than most other figures!
2.) His being on possibly only one of the molds would make it EASY!!! for the factory to pull that entire mold copy, thus eliminating SC from being made PERIOD in any colors!
3.) This theory falls in line with why Satan Cross is even quite an Uncommon and sought after sculpt even among Kinkeshi collectors!
4.) Maybe Bandai decided to make all the Multi part characters from Part 21 harder to find to increase sales of old stock figures and new stock! Their being made in limited runs would have made them like chase figures. It was a new take on the Kinkeshi line, and surely many kids would be like COOL!!! I want these figures, so they would spend more money to try and get the little devils out of the darned machines!!!

It makes so much sense!!! All the Super Rare sculpts from Part 21 all came in one of the tree molds, except for Satan Cross! So they would be Money making Chase Kinkeshi figures. While SC was placed, instead, on only ONE of the Copies of the Tree Molds from one of the other Trees from that part!!! Thus making him slightly more uncommon in the muscle line, and then easy to remove from the color run of figures!!!!!

It would be hard to prove, but maybe our old chart information that we put together can add more wood to the fire Soupie! If we can see a consistency change in Part 21 figure production percentages between the Flesh Muscle run and the Colored muscle run, then maybe, just maybe this theory could be right!

Sometimes I even surprise myself.
I hope that made sense, and that you didn't go brain dead trying to read it all Soups. Let me know what you think.

[Soupie]

I think we need to ask Naochin EVERYTHING he knows about kinkeshi production, including the molds and stuff.

As to multiple molds per figure on each family mold, I don't know. TGB would probably have a better idea, but I'm thinking there was only one family mold, and it probably had two copies of each sculpt on it -- just like the example arforbes has. And the idea that there were 2-3 copies of each family mold. While that would be uber expensive -- I think jkaris said these molds were in the high thousands -- I guess if there were 2-3 factories making kinkeshi, there would have to be multiple copies of the family molds. Although, each factory could have been working on different "parts."

For instance, my Mordles, Cheap Toys, Weird Ball Wrestlers, all seem to have two sculpt variations... one for each of the two molds in their family tree.

As knowledgeable as Naochin seems to be, I bet he would have an idea how many molds Bandai used for each character/sculpt.

Finally, I'm not sure this idea really address the fact the SC's body was run in flesh but not his 2nd legs. Right?

Edited by Soupie, 12 February 2008 - 06:29 AM.

[arforbes]

Just to add, I have NEVER seen a mold/sculpt variation of Satancross like I have with all the other figures in the Muscle line. Or most of them anyway. Never have I seen one with different hole patterns or variations and I have had TONS in my possession over the years. Could this be significant?

[Soupie]

Oh, yeah. It supports URS's theory.

[arforbes]

Oh, yeah. It supports URS's theory.

That's exactly what I was thinking too.

[Soupie]

**Warning: Complete and unabated speculation about the MUSCLE Color Code ahead.**

I'm sure the MUSCLE color code ties in with this as well in some way. The trend seems to be for each MUSCLE tree to be missing 2-3 colors. Each part seems to 2-4 trees.

Maybe when each new part came on line, Bandai distributed the trees (family molds) to each factory so they could pump them out. So while, say parts 5 and 6 were being produced, each factory had two or three family molds to focus on producing. And...

Whoa! Here's another thought! Kinkeshi are only made in 5 colors, 4 if we don't count flesh. Perhaps this has something to do with the ODD pattern we find with trees and colors? Each tree seems to be missing 2-3 colors.

Is that a multiple of 4-5 some how? Know what I mean?

Maybe the factories were somehow (not sure how) set up to only produce 4 colors at a time at the most. So when Mattel wanted more than 4 colors, they could only hit each trees with 5-6 colors. And as we've speculated before, each factory had different colors available to use.

[Soupie]

Okay, here we go! Let's say there's 4 factories each capable of making 4 colors at a time:

F1: -- Salmon -- Purple -- Dark Blue -- ________ -- Red -- _______ -- ______ -- _____

F2: -- ______ -- Purple -- Dark Blue -- Light Blue -- Red -- _______ -- Orange -- _____

F3: -- Salmon -- ______ -- _______ -- _________ -- ___ -- Magenta -- Orange -- Green

F4: -- Salmon -- Purple -- Dark Blue -- _________ -- Red -- _______ -- _____ -- Green

Okay, suck at math, so the chart doesn't work real well, but it gets my idea across. For example, let's imagine a tree, say, part 3, tree 1, was made in factories F3 and F4.

F3: -- Salmon -- ______ -- _______ -- _________ -- ___ -- Magenta -- Orange -- Green

F4: -- Salmon -- Purple -- Dark Blue -- _________ -- Red -- _______ -- _____ -- Green

This tree would be common in Salmon, rare in Purple, rare in Dark Blue, not made in Purple, rare in Red, rare in Magenta, rare in Orange, and Common in Green.

Does that make sense to anyone?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

First off, remember Kinkeshi are insanely available! I'd say there are probably 100 times as many kinkeshi as there are Muscles....just a number though. I'm almost certain that they had to have more than one mold. It would be expensive, but it would have to be done when your producing so many figures. An accident, or just overuse can damage a mold. Then your screwed if you don't have any backups! As expensive as it may be, the profit would Supremely outway the cost. How much did a capsule of Kinkeshi cost back then? .50 cents? A dollar? More? If one machine has about 500 capsules in it for a buck each, and there are like 1000 machines in Japan that have the darn things, then that is like $500,000 bucks after all is said an done! How much did it cost in plastic materials to make Kinkeshi? .10 cents a tree? And like 10 figs on a tree to be split up into 3 or so capsules? That would be nearly 2700% profit after sale. Probably 700% goes to the retailer, and the rest to Bandai so they can pay everyone! Of course these are just numbers, but it gives an idea of how that crap works in the long run! I'm just saying it only makes sense to have multiple molds, for high production use, or at the very least for backup.

[arforbes]

Forgive me if this was already addressed but Satancross also has no sprue hole where the legs might have been attached - which differs completely from SHA and BHS. Also if you look on Naochin's site ALL the SC pics in each color are shown with legs simply standing next to the figure, never attached. So yes, legs made separately for sure = highly likely. On a different tree though? Hard to say.

http://ulala69.hp.in...o.jp/part21.htm

Edited by arforbes, 12 February 2008 - 12:28 PM.

[Soupie]

Forgive me if this was already addressed but Satancross also has no sprue hole where the legs might have been attached - which differs completely from SHA and BHS. Also if you look on Naochin's site ALL the SC pics in each color are shown with legs simply standing next to the figure, never attached. So yes, legs made separately for sure = highly likely. On a different tree though? Hard to say.

http://ulala69.hp.in...o.jp/part21.htm

Whoa! Good analysis, arforbes! And to the fact the other people besides URS and I are starting to talk about the trees and molding process!

[matthewf1tz]

Whoa! Good analysis, arforbes! And to the fact the other people besides URS and I are starting to talk about the trees and molding process!

I think plenty of people are reading with interest just not able to contribute too much...

the best I could do was a fleeting reference in the 29th anniversary thread

Keep it up!

Edited by matthewf1tz, 12 February 2008 - 02:54 PM.

[arforbes]

Forgive me if this was already addressed but Satancross also has no sprue hole where the legs might have been attached - which differs completely from SHA and BHS. Also if you look on Naochin's site ALL the SC pics in each color are shown with legs simply standing next to the figure, never attached. So yes, legs made separately for sure = highly likely. On a different tree though? Hard to say.

http://ulala69.hp.in...o.jp/part21.htm

Whoa! Good analysis, arforbes! And to the fact the other people besides URS and I are starting to talk about the trees and molding process!

Thanks man! This stuff is quite intriguing actually. And to think that we may actually solve this mystery is even sweeter! Hopefully Naochin can tell us some stuff that will help piece more of the puzzle together.

[matthewf1tz]

apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong thread or if it's been brought up before but it looks like trees could be made 'at will' to suit needs.

These two I think are from different parts (I believe one is from 14 but the other...?)

 attached_figs.jpg   18.72K   28 downloads

they came from this set:

 jeju1975_img600x401_1187753304po20070822_0009_103.jpg   40.82K   21 downloads

are they re-issues or original keshi? I know they look shiney but is that the plastic bag?

[Soupie]

What?! How dare you post actual, factual pictures in this thread!

Very interesting. I'm not sure about the identity of the other sculpt either... But it is possible that the chambers/individual molds for each sculpt could be switched in and out of the family mold. If that's the case, that would certainly explain how SC was apparently so easily removed from the color run.

(I'm off to do some netsearch on family molds.)

[jkaris]

Re-issue plastic, I have one of those sets.

[Soupie]

Re-issue plastic, I have one of those sets.

But still, Jkaris, it's the fact that those two sculpts appear to be on the same frame. Can you identify the one sculpt Matthew couldn't? If they originally came from two different trees/family molds, the fact that they are now together suggests individual molds can be swapped around!

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I'd like to add, that if the singular molds could be switched out at all, then there would more than likely be no noticeable color code or tree information. I don't believe in the multi piece Tree molds, and never have. Just my two cents. It just doesn't seem remotely feasible to me.

[Soupie]

I'd like to add, that if the singular molds could be switched out at all, then there would more than likely be no noticeable color code or tree information. I don't believe in the multi piece Tree molds, and never have. Just my two cents. It just doesn't seem remotely feasible to me.

Right, but consider the fact that switching our specific cavities is probably very time consuming and potentially disruptive to the family mold balance (if a completely different cavity is put in its place). Perhaps they only swapped cavities in extreme cases -- to replace a worn one, or for a re-release set.

[jkaris]

I just opened the box, they are re-molds and a re smaller due to shrinkage. Also, the Robin Mask is from part 91-1 or 91-2.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

It's interesting about shrinkage. I don't know why Marty doesn't chime in too often when we discuss molding processes. Marty's customs seem to be perfect and nearly flawless compared to the original figures. I would take it that this is due to the materials used for the figures. He uses hard plastic that seems to stay pretty firm, I guess the softer plastics expand more thus shrink more during cooling. This could only result, in my opinion, from making the reissue molds from the actual original figures. Or else they would be the same size if made from the original molds. I'm pretty confident that Bandai still had the original molds in 91, and If the singular molds for each figure could be switched around at will, they would have done so, and reissues would be the same size as the originals. It still could be said that the newer reissue plastic shrank more than the old keshi rubber, but I would think the firmer the substance the less shrinkage would take place. The Kinnikuman Kinkeshi line was all but nearly dead at this time, so it would have been cheaper and much more productive for Bandai to cast new molds from the actual figures.

I will give some credit to the Multi part molds though. Many model kits today (such as Gundams) have runners where different sections of a single runner are 2 or more different colors. This would make it feasible that the multi part molds are possible, yet it could be possible that they fuse the different color runner parts together after they are molded. There are always these round fuse spots on these multi colored runners, where the two or more colored parts are combined.

[jkaris]

I think that injection molding always has shrinkage (melted, cast them cooled to hard), where TGB's stuff is all RTV (cures at room temperature). RTV has little to no shrinkage from what I have read.

I think between Alex's string and the color code, there is no doubt that there were definitely 2+ mirrored trees per part.