28 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

The following figures all come in 8 of the 9 MUSCLE colors (if they also come in Grape I've noted that). I've labled each figure by MUSCLE poster order, the Kinnikuman part, and what color it is missing.

The below pictures are grouped by Kinnikuman Part. You'll see that there is indeed a pattern!

Keep in mind that the MCIA is not complete, and that there may be other MUSCLEs only missing a sculpt of one particular color. (This kind of makes me wish the MCIA was arranged by Kinnikuman parts.)

In light of Arforbes recent find of Kinnikuman/MUSCLE being molded in groups within parts coupled with the below pattern, I think it is clear that the MUSCLE color mystery is connected to Kinnikuman parts.

In other words, the colors that a particular MUSCLE was or was not produced in is directly linked to which Kinnikuman part it orginally belonged to.

This means two cool things:

1) MUSCLE were definitely made using the same molds (or molds based off of) Kinnikuman molds.

2) It will eventually be possible to determine which MUSCLEs were made in which colors DEFINITIVELY.

Part One

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part Eight

Part 8 | Missing Magenta (Comes in Grape)

Part 8 | Missing Magenta

Part 8 | Missing Magenta (Comes in Grape)

Part 8 | Missing Magenta (Comes in Grape)

Part 8 | Missing Magenta (Comes in Grape)

Part 8 | Missing Magenta

Part 8 | Missing Magenta (Comes in Grape)

Part Nine

Part 9 | Missing Green

Part 9 | Missing Green

Part Fourteen

Part 14 | Missing Purple

[Zombie]

(This kind of makes me wish the MCIA was arranged by Kinnikuman parts.)

Shouldn't it be relatively easy (but maybe time consuming) to do this? The pics don't need to be uploaded twice, and you can still keep the M.U.S.C.L.E. layout, just add new html pages with links to the pics arranged by Kinnikuman parts. That would allow visitors to view either by M.U.S.C.L.E. or Kinnikuman number.

[Soupie]

Though there does appear to be a pattern, what it is is not entirely clear. I've looked up three more figures from Part One.

* Thanks to URS, it's now clear that each part does have a pattern -- however, the entire part won't have the same pattern. That's because, as we quessed, parts are divided into "trees" and thus it's the trees within each part that will share the same color pattern. Read below for more!

See below:

Part One

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue

Part 1 | Missing Dark Blue (and others)

Part 1 | Not Missing Dark Blue (and others)

Part 1 | Not Missing Dark Blue (and others)

Of these three additional figures from Part One, two of them do come in Dark Blue.

Is there a unique pattern for figures that come in 9, 8, 7, etc. colors?

Shouldn't it be relatively easy (but maybe time consuming) to do this? The pics don't need to be uploaded twice, and you can still keep the M.U.S.C.L.E. layout, just add new html pages with links to the pics arranged by Kinnikuman parts. That would allow visitors to view either by M.U.S.C.L.E. or Kinnikuman number.

It's possible, yes. As a matter of fact, I could probably do it in a weekend of copying and pasting.

As you can see above, the pattern may not be so easy to discover... maybe by arranging them by Kinnikuman part the pattern will emerge on its own?

You know what, I will do it, I'm that damn curious!

Edited by Soupie, 22 March 2006 - 04:59 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I think Alex's find makes alot of things clear. Of course from what I looked at it appears they made figures in batches of 4 different sculpts to 6 different sculpts per tree. I looked at Kinnikuman Part 8 for this, and compared the figures in part 8 to the Muscle Database's Purple Figures only. First you will notice that 6 sculpts from this part were not produced as muscles. So that's one tree of 6 figures that we didn't get. This part has 23 figures so the figures per tree should be a bit uneven, and truly so! Why? Because 5 of the figures in this part were made in Grape, but also they are all uncommon in Purple. Then we have 4 sculpts that are super common in Purple, and then 8 sculpts that range from only 0 to 5 figures known tops! 3 Sculpts had 0 known purples, but muscle 162 only has one figure listed. So it's possible that is a mistake. Here are the results, and possible figures that came in each individual tree.

98/34 purples
99/33 purples
148/43 purples
150/38 purples

1/5 purples/commone in grape
149/1 purples/common in grape
151/3 purples/common in grape
152/3 purples/common in grape
154/4 purples/common in grape

37/0 purples
158/0 purples
160/0 purples
162/1 purples

3/4 purples
138/5 purples
153/3 purples
155/2 purples

These six were not made.
Tall Man
Tail Lamp
Poltergaist
Long-legs Gon
Queen kinniku
Okamaras

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I did the same thing with part 8 again, but with Green then Dark Blue. It's pretty consistent.
Nb Gr DB
98/ 12 / 0
99/ 9 / 0
148/ 10 / 0
150/ 9 / 0

1/ 13 / 8
149/ 9 / 19
151/ 12 / 11
152/ 11 / 12
154/ 13 / 15

37/ 15/ 1
158/ 15/ 0
160/ 18/ 0
162/ 11/ 0

3/ 13/ 13
138/ 11/ 18
153/ 12/ 13
155/ 10/ 14

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 21 March 2006 - 05:36 PM.

[Soupie]

Nice work!

So, using this logic, it is pretty safe to say that #162 in Purple is most likely a mistake, as well as #037 in Dark Blue! (As a matter of fact, I don't have images of either of those.)

Well, to be honest, I never really put much stock in the theory that some colored MUSCLEs were harder to find than others (I've never worked on a color collection, or I'd probably have known how likely the theory was).

With this in mind, it looks like I will have to indicate on the MCIA which figures are common and which are uncommon (I'll just use different colored borders).

Is there common, uncommon, and uber-uncommon? I suppose so, with the Purple Claw and what not.

In any case, I'm a dummy, so tell me, URS, can we use this new knowledge to figure out DEFINITIVELY which MUSCLEs came in which colors?

[Soupie]

1/5 purples/commone in grape
149/1 purples/common in grape
151/3 purples/common in grape
152/3 purples/common in grape
154/4 purples/common in grape

I think it is soooo cool that they used this "tree" to make all the Grapes. They could have chosen any tree...

Gee, what a lucky tree that one is from part eight.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well it's reasonable to say that if one or two figures are found in a particular color and come from the same tree, then the other figures on that tree must have been made in that color as well. That make sense?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Also don't forget that the two ring figures and the green board game buffalo man are still a mystery. It's reasonable to think that these two figures were made on completely seperate trees from one another and consisted of multiple copies of the same figures on a single tree.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 21 March 2006 - 06:05 PM.

[Soupie]

Oops, last post...

Anyhow, only time will tell, and more research, but perhaps each Kinnikuman Part is divided into 3 to 4 trees (depending on the size of the part), with one of each tree being common, uncommon, and uber-uncommon for each color.

Did you already say that?

Once we figure how many trees each part has, we can begin to figure the color pattern of common, uncommon, uber-uncommon for each tree.

URS, another dummy question: Does this new info tell us why some MUSCLEs come in more colors than others?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well it would seem that they assigned a different color to each tree in a part, so maybe. Although part 8 seems to have been made completely evenly in Green. However tree 3 appears to have not been made in Purple or Dark Blue, but tree 1 does not match that scenario. It was made in Purple, but not dark blue. So chances are a tree set's abundance in one color appears to have been completely up to manufacturer.

[Soupie]

Okay, I was thinking this could be a little cyclical: I can figure out what color a MUSCLE comes in if I can figure what tree it belongs to, but I can't figure out what tree it belongs to unless I know what color it comes in.



But look at this, I've arranged colored images of the figures from part one together on one page: MCIA - PART ONE

These figures are all in part one, but I don't have them grouped by their trees. Just looking over this, though, I quickly realized that 020, 023, 046, and 060 must belong to the same tree! However, I'm missing a Light Blue image of 020. Still, applying the tree logic, it is obvious that 020 comes in Light Blue.

In fact, a check of the MDB reveals that two people report having it!

Pretty cool!

I think this theory needs refined and clearly explained (with examples and pictures) in a new thread.

[Soupie]

Okay, I don't want to steal URS's thunder, but I just want to let everyone know that he has looked at a few other kinnikuman parts using MDB information and without a doubt MUSCLE color is directly related to which Kinnikuman part it belonged to and, more specifically, which tree within the part it belonged to.

[Soupie]

I've thought about this too. It's kind of weird to look back on because I mentioned that there might be 13 other figures, but dismiss the idea. Well, 11 more have shown up. 

Yes, I immediately thought of that thread too. (In fact, I linked to it in the thread where Arforbes shared his tree discovery.)

What needs to be done now, which I plan on doing asap, is to analize parts 15 and 21 (the parts that the original SRs belong to) using MDB and the tree theory.

I think it is highly likely that the SR within those parts are all part of the same tree. Still, and analysis is necessary.

I think Alex’s discovery shows us how the Kin were made, but I don’t know if we can definitely say that Bandai used the same process for MUSCLE – simply because there aren’t all of the same figures.

I agree that caution is needed, but once you look at the data, it is obvious that MUSCLE color is directly linked to the trees within each part.

For example, lets say part X consists of 9 figures.

#

001
002
003
004
005
006
007
008
009

When we analize the figures by which colors they have been found in, a pattern quickly emerges, like so:

# Green Blue

001 Yes No
002 Yes No
003 Yes No
004 Yes No
005 Yes No
006 No No
007 No No
008 No No
009 No No

Once you see the pattern, you can seperate the figures into their seperate trees in which they were molded.

Tree One

# Green Blue

001 Yes No
002 Yes No
003 Yes No
004 Yes No
005 Yes No

Tree Two

# Green Blue

006 No No
007 No No
008 No No
009 No No

A pattern emerges, dividing the part into two seperate trees. Once we determine which figures belong to which trees, we can predict that the figures will all be found in the same exact colors.

Thus, figures 001-005 will all have the same pattern of the remaining six colors, and likewise with 006-009.

For example, if figure 003 is found in Magenta, it means 001, 002, 004, and 005 will also be found in Magenta.

Analysis of Kinnikuman parts using MDB confirms this!

Edited by Soupie, 22 March 2006 - 08:13 AM.

[jkaris]

When I get a chance, I will pull some of my 4 packs and match the figures to kinnikuman parts. This will tell us if 4 packs were run based on a few mold, or if they came from random piles of muscle. My guess is that they will match up, being that most 4 pack cases have nearly all the same figure/colors in them.

Alex, if you have time today, can you check yours?

[arforbes]

When I get a chance, I will pull some of my 4 packs and match the figures to kinnikuman parts. This will tell us if 4 packs were run based on a few mold, or if they came from random piles of muscle. My guess is that they will match up, being that most 4 pack cases have nearly all the same figure/colors in them.

Alex, if you have time today, can you check yours?

Sure will.

[Soupie]

My guess is that they will match up, being that most 4 pack cases have nearly all the same figure/colors in them.

Interestingly, URS has found that the first two parts (one and two) both consisting of 20 figures, both seem to be divided into trees of ten.

Perhaps the Garbage Cans are also based off of trees.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Here are the results of parts 1 through 4 I shared with Soups. The figures are set apart according to matches in consistency. Each section represents a tree, and is highly accurate according to color quantity of a figure. Alex's find clears up so much about the color rarities. It's safe to say that if someone finds a Colored figure that has not been found yet, and provides visual evidence, that all other figures on that respective tree must have been made in that color also.

I used more colors when determining Part 1 because I was trying to find out if there were more than 2 separate trees. However there appears to be no more than two. Part 1 consisted of 20 sculpts, as well as Part 2. Both had the same problem, so it is safe to assume that Parts 1 and 2 only had two trees each. This coincides with Part 4 which only has 10 sculpts, all of which match up flawlessly. Part 3 appears to have 3 separate trees. Muscle Figure 161 is listed as it's own separate tree due to the fact that it's numbers coincide with none of the others on that list. From looking at Naochin's site, it's safe to assume that 161 was indeed a separate figure. That was the only figure set apart from the main list as seen
HERE. Using this information as Soupie mentioned should indeed tell us exactly which figures were made in which color, and their rarity.

Part 1 -1 sculpts
Nb/DB/Gr/Lb/Ma/Or/Pu/Re/Sa
27/ 9/ 7/11/ 0/ 1/ 7/14/ 9
28/13/13/13/ 0/ 0/ 5/19/ 5
39/13/10/13/ 1/ 1/ 8/17/ 7
41/12/14/10/ 0/ 0/ 6/12/10
55/ 9/ 9/ 6/ 0/ 0/ 3/22/ 8
93/14/13/ 9/ 0/ 0/ 6/17/ 4
123/10/10/11/ 0/ 2/ 5/20/ 9
156/13/ 8/11/ 0/ 0/ 4/19/ 3
220/ 8/ 8/16/ 0/ 0/ 6/14/ 8

20/ 0/17/ 2/10/10/ 7/17/ 6
23/ 0/12/ 1/16/ 8/ 5/20/ 9
31/ 0/14/ 1/ 8/10/ 7/10/ 7
33/ 0/ 9/ 1/11/ 6/ 8/13/ 3
35/ 0/ 9/ 3/ 5/ 5/ 7/11/ 4
36/ 0/13/ 1/ 5/10/ 6/13/ 5
46/ 0/12/ 2/ 7/ 7/ 9/21/ 6
60/ 0/12/ 2/ 8/ 5/ 5/13/ 3
61/ 0/19/ 4/ 9/10/ 6/24/ 2
82/ 0/11/ 5/ 9/11/ 7/17/ 4


Part 2 -3 sculpts
Nb/Ma/Sa/Re/Pu
17/ 1/12/15/13
21/ 2/12/18/15
26/ 3/15/16/18
43/ 2/10/12/17
44/ 2/12/11/18
54/ 3/13/18/14
67/ 2/11/18/15
103/ 2/12/17/20

10/ 0/ 0/ 1/11
13/ 0/ 0/ 1/9
24/ 0/ 0/ 2/11
25/ 1/ 0/ 1/8
38/ 0/ 0/ 2/8
48/ 0/ 0/ 2/9
49/ 0/ 0/ 1/10
51/ 0/ 0/ 2/11
53/ 0/ 0/ 1/7


Part 3 -1 sculpt
Nb/Lb/Ma/Pu/Re
4/0/0/0/36
7/0/0/0/30
8/0/0/0/36
62/0/0/0/34
122/0/0/0/36

65/14/0/11/1
66/19/0/7/0
69/16/0/15/0
130/15/0/12/0
233/14/0/15/0

161/1/1/19/11


Part 4
Nb/Ma/Or/Pu/Re
5/ 0/ 0/30/12
6/ 0/ 0/28/10
12/ 0/ 0/32/16
52/ 0/ 0/22/12
57/ 0/ 0/30/16
59/ 0/ 0/27/15
63/ 0/ 0/22/14
74/ 0/ 0/25/18
226/ 0/ 0/24/12
230/ 0/ 0/27/ 9

[jkaris]

It's safe to say that if someone finds a Colored figure that has not been found yet, and provides visual evidence, that all other figures on that respective tree must have been made in that color also.

Which, if true, begs the question, "Where did all the non-MUSCLE sculpts go, and are there also Super Rares in colors?"

[Soupie]

If you look at the third picture in Arforbes mold-string thread, you can see that each sculpt was feed the liquid material through a thin tube.

If Bandai did not want to use a particular mold, I assume they could have easily plugged the tube.

That's why I say that the tree mold increases the likelihood of the original SRs being mistakes.

[jkaris]

If Bandai did not want to use a particular mold, I assume they could have easily plugged the tube.

Good point. I didn't consider that.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

If you look at the third picture in Arforbes mold-string thread, you can see that each sculpt was feed the liquid material through a thin tube.

If Bandai did not want to use a particular mold, I assume they could have easily plugged the tube.

That's why I say that the tree mold increases the likelihood of the original SRs being mistakes.

Marty, being an expert on injection molds, mentioned this a long time ago. A plug could have easily been forced out if not placed in correctly. and if a plug did fall out then it would have been a while before they realized it was missing. Since the people at the factory who seperated the figures from the trees were not the people who set the molds into place for injection. This could explain the abundance of SC. As well as the occasional appearance of the other super rares. This would also explain why there were numerous non muscle sculpts in the catalog photos Veers has. It wouldn't have been hard to make these mistakes, and would explain a great deal about the super rares.

[jkaris]

This would also explain why there were numerous non muscle sculpts in the catalog photos Veers has.

Those are kinkeshi.