For a moment let us assume that DM, BHS, and SHA are all 100% authentic MUSCLE’s. We often consider the poster to be the definitive guide to the authenticity of MUSCLE’s, but we easily accept the 2 ring figures and game pieces which aren’t on the poster. We also accept colored MUSCLE’s that aren’t on the colored poster. So there is a precedent for accepting MUSCLE’s that aren’t on the poster.
However, the intention of this thread is not to debate their authenticity, but where did they come from.
So where did they come from?
We know which figures came in the 28 packs, and there seems to be a strong consensus that these same figures did not appear in 4 and 10 packs. This leads me to believe that they must have come in a 4 or 10 pack.
Yet we have never seen these figures in those packs, and there are quite a few sealed 4 and 10 packs out there. But this leads me to believe 1 of 2 things. These 3 figures were going to be released but were pulled early in the production OR these 3 figures were released at the end of the production.
However I’m slightly more inclined to believe it is the first scenario. Why? These 3 figures aren’t on the poster, and they don’t seem to have popped up in any later packs. I think there should have been more popping up if they were late in the toy run. It was the overstock, and “un-sellable” MUSCLE items that most people got their hands on.
The slightly more bizarre scenario I can come up with is that they were part of the Quick promotion. Perhaps these figures were made as pack-in figures. There limited numbers could be a result of not many kids getting the special pack-in’s when their Mom’s bought Quick.
So where do you think these figures came from?
Another Super Rare Discussion
Started by
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, Jun 03 2003 08:12 AM
44 replies to this topic
#2
Tortle
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 08:34 AM
First, I doubt that they were released at the end of production because (I believe) towards the end all MUSCLEs were multi-colored, not flesh.
Another scenario is that they were part of a 2nd series of MUSCLEs. I doubt that Mattel would make so few of them for a second series... especially without creating new packaging to advertise the second series.
Still another scenario is that they are prototypes. I think this is the most unlikely... I find it hard to believe that prototypes somehow found their way onto the production line. That would be like finding a rocket-firing Boba Fett on a SW card back in the day. Prototyping is a completely separate function from production.
And I don't think that the figures were just cancelled early from production. Satan Cross was cancelled early (most likely), but there's a crap-load of him around. I think the super-rares were released early in the line, but recalled for health risk reasons. SHA and BHS both had small parts that could easily be swallowed. I'm not sure why DM would be recalled... maybe his staff could put out an eye..?
A recall would explain why there are so few of them available (most of them were recalled, but a few got out to the public), and why they were not on the poster (the recalled happened before the poster was released). That's my vote.
-Nathan
Another scenario is that they were part of a 2nd series of MUSCLEs. I doubt that Mattel would make so few of them for a second series... especially without creating new packaging to advertise the second series.
Still another scenario is that they are prototypes. I think this is the most unlikely... I find it hard to believe that prototypes somehow found their way onto the production line. That would be like finding a rocket-firing Boba Fett on a SW card back in the day. Prototyping is a completely separate function from production.
And I don't think that the figures were just cancelled early from production. Satan Cross was cancelled early (most likely), but there's a crap-load of him around. I think the super-rares were released early in the line, but recalled for health risk reasons. SHA and BHS both had small parts that could easily be swallowed. I'm not sure why DM would be recalled... maybe his staff could put out an eye..?
A recall would explain why there are so few of them available (most of them were recalled, but a few got out to the public), and why they were not on the poster (the recalled happened before the poster was released). That's my vote.
-Nathan
#3
Beligerant1
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 08:42 AM
I can think of a theory that could account for all of these rares. Its kind of like that postage stamp that had the upside down plane or coins that got through mints' screening process with messed up features. I think that someone at the toy plant that made muscles decided to throw in these extra molds on a whim. I think that it was one guy, maybe a manager or an exec that wanted molds to bring to the board meeting, or something like that, that caused only maybe a few hundred or even only a few dozen of these figs to be made. Maybe the extras were supposed to be thrown away, or maybe they were given out to guys that worked at the factory. But i think that they are legit muscles that were never supposed to get out. I am mostly talking about bhs, sha, and dm. Satan cross is too common i think maybe he just got left off the poster or something.
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#4
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 08:56 AM
I think Beligerant1 is suggesting more of an X-files scenario. While I don’t believe that is the case, it could be. The largest hole in this story is motivation.
If the motivation was fun, how was the mold made? And if a mold was made, then why aren’t there more of these figures.
If the motivation was to “be a little bastitch”, how would that be an effective method? Plus the mold question comes up again.
Nate was right on with the recall too, I forgot to mention that. Nice catch!
If the motivation was fun, how was the mold made? And if a mold was made, then why aren’t there more of these figures.
If the motivation was to “be a little bastitch”, how would that be an effective method? Plus the mold question comes up again.
Nate was right on with the recall too, I forgot to mention that. Nice catch!
#5
jkaris
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 09:05 AM
Personally, I think they were part of a test run, or a "salesman sample" per say. I think they were pre production examples and that maybe a few made their way into the earliest packaging, possibly.
What is really confusing is that with the BHS that Alex has, it is dead mint with the chest piece still on the sprue. Really, really interesting.
Other than that, I don't have any ideas.
I do wonder what others are out there....
What is really confusing is that with the BHS that Alex has, it is dead mint with the chest piece still on the sprue. Really, really interesting.
Other than that, I don't have any ideas.
I do wonder what others are out there....
#6
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 09:22 AM
I could possibly see them as a “salesman sample” but from a recent article I read on galactichunter.com I don’t believe many sales people were given these kinds of samples.
If it had been a “sample”, then it probably would have been part of a Toy Fair display by Mattel. If that is the case, then why did the 3 figures end up in vastly different places? They weren’t bought in one lot, and no mention was made of the uniqueness of the figures. I know that if my Dad gave me a Toy Fair “sample” I would probably mention it when I tried to re-sell the figures.
Plus if they were a sample, then what was their benefit? These figures don’t differ THAT much from the rest of the MUSCLE line. Why make special figures if they are practically the same as everything else? That doesn’t seem very cost effective from a business point of view.
If it had been a “sample”, then it probably would have been part of a Toy Fair display by Mattel. If that is the case, then why did the 3 figures end up in vastly different places? They weren’t bought in one lot, and no mention was made of the uniqueness of the figures. I know that if my Dad gave me a Toy Fair “sample” I would probably mention it when I tried to re-sell the figures.
Plus if they were a sample, then what was their benefit? These figures don’t differ THAT much from the rest of the MUSCLE line. Why make special figures if they are practically the same as everything else? That doesn’t seem very cost effective from a business point of view.
#7
max powerz
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 10:32 AM
If they are real, I think they were intended to be put in the line and were molded but never release. Afew were made and due to them seeing the hazards to them, stopped making them or just desided to scrap them. Also they may have figured, "gee guys these wont sell" for some strange reason and desided to scrap em. My dad has worked in a toy company and they do the weirdest things sometimes. (reason why he left was they didnt pay him fully but thats another story). Proto types never get realeased but they do manage to surface up every once in awhile. I personally have 2 prototype batmen figures, hand painted (better done but paint is fading away), capes made of COMPLETELY different material (although i think one is broken). Weird things happen. My dad tells me of this one line which was never ever released and wishes he could have gotten me at least one of them. He did manage to get me cool things before they came out and as I said stuff that noone would have (like for Jurassic Park, the peopel used guns that were from the actual movie and I got both of them (only three were made of that type of gun)). But that isnt always toy related, I Do wish I got the actuall dino from the movie though:(
If you want to think of another way, there is a possiblility the molds somehow got destroyed by the way they were taken care of which I highly doubt. But im gunna run now so im cutting it short.
If you want to think of another way, there is a possiblility the molds somehow got destroyed by the way they were taken care of which I highly doubt. But im gunna run now so im cutting it short.
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Series 1 CCG cards-
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______________________
Needs for Ultimate Muscle:
Series 1 CCG cards-
#012 king muscle (green foil lettering)
#013 terryman (green foil letterings)
#020 ramenman (blue foil letterings)
#045 kinikudriver (red and green foil letterings)
Series 2 CCG cards All and All Series 2 figures
Starcom Needs: ALL. Doubles, tripples, etc... Any condition welcome.
#8
Adamantiumwulf
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 10:48 AM
What year(s) where the kinnikuman figures made and what year did the production start for M.U.S.C.L.E. It could be if there was enough time between the two lines that some of the molds broke. So they only had x amount of molds. Maybe SC and the others molds looked ok but broke after a certain time on the production line.
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#9
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:07 AM
Or, maybe the molds for these guys were somehow destroyed, kind of like what happened to the BTAS Robin Dragster (the mold for which was lost in a fire, supposedly). I think the destruction of the molds is realistic, but somewhat improbable...
-Nathan
-Nathan
#10
Guest_General Veers_*
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:19 AM
Here’s some interesting information…
http://www.toydirect...lToys/index.htm
Feel free to read the entire article, but here is what I found very interesting:
“Mattel’s next big "hit" product briefly helped the company balance the success of the Barbie doll with a boys’ toy -- Masters Of The Universe, a line of action figures that featured "He-Man" as the main character. Initially, He-Man eclipsed even the Barbie doll in consumer demand, generating $400 million in sales in 1985. But this hit product line fell as fast as it had risen, eventually leaving Mattel with a big void in sales and warehouses full of unwanted inventory.
After the Masters Of The Universe and Intellivision sales experiences, Mattel decided to focus on profitability instead of pursuing ever-higher sales volume, as it had in the past. The company closed 10 manufacturing plants and reduced headquarters staff and overhead spending. In 1986, Mattel acquired Hong Kong-based ARCO Industries, Ltd., a letter of credit business offering low-priced, non-promoted toys principally to U.S. retailers. Also that same year, Mattel entered into a joint venture arrangement with Bandai, the largest Japanese toy company, to market and sell products in that country.
In 1987, as part of the effort to maintain profitability and consistent revenue streams, Mattel began a successful strategy that continues today -- maximizing core brands while at the same time identifying new brands with core potential. New products and strategies are derived from time-tested product lines with global appeal and fundamental play patterns.”
Perhaps this is a hint to our answer? If MUSCLE was part of the ARCO deal, then Mattel would be careful not to get burned again with overstock. Perhaps BHS, SHA, and DM were overstock from another line that were packaged as MUSCLE’s. Because Mattel wanted to diminish existing stock maybe they thought SHA, BHS, and DM would surprise anybody if they showed up in MUSCLE packaging.
Toy companies often reuse existing toys. For instance Friar Tuck, from the Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves line of toys, is a Gamorrean Guard body with a new head, paint job, and rope.
Am I way off here?
http://www.toydirect...lToys/index.htm
Feel free to read the entire article, but here is what I found very interesting:
“Mattel’s next big "hit" product briefly helped the company balance the success of the Barbie doll with a boys’ toy -- Masters Of The Universe, a line of action figures that featured "He-Man" as the main character. Initially, He-Man eclipsed even the Barbie doll in consumer demand, generating $400 million in sales in 1985. But this hit product line fell as fast as it had risen, eventually leaving Mattel with a big void in sales and warehouses full of unwanted inventory.
After the Masters Of The Universe and Intellivision sales experiences, Mattel decided to focus on profitability instead of pursuing ever-higher sales volume, as it had in the past. The company closed 10 manufacturing plants and reduced headquarters staff and overhead spending. In 1986, Mattel acquired Hong Kong-based ARCO Industries, Ltd., a letter of credit business offering low-priced, non-promoted toys principally to U.S. retailers. Also that same year, Mattel entered into a joint venture arrangement with Bandai, the largest Japanese toy company, to market and sell products in that country.
In 1987, as part of the effort to maintain profitability and consistent revenue streams, Mattel began a successful strategy that continues today -- maximizing core brands while at the same time identifying new brands with core potential. New products and strategies are derived from time-tested product lines with global appeal and fundamental play patterns.”
Perhaps this is a hint to our answer? If MUSCLE was part of the ARCO deal, then Mattel would be careful not to get burned again with overstock. Perhaps BHS, SHA, and DM were overstock from another line that were packaged as MUSCLE’s. Because Mattel wanted to diminish existing stock maybe they thought SHA, BHS, and DM would surprise anybody if they showed up in MUSCLE packaging.
Toy companies often reuse existing toys. For instance Friar Tuck, from the Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves line of toys, is a Gamorrean Guard body with a new head, paint job, and rope.
Am I way off here?
#11
ToyMan
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 11:48 AM
sorta' makes you wish that there had been people paying as close attention to the line back in the day as we do now, huh? too bad there wasn't a fully realized world wide web back then, huh?
#12
jkaris
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:37 PM
I think so, but I could be wrong.Am I way off here?
Mattel licensed the Kinnikuman line, which was at that time at Part 21 (SC, BHS, SHA, etc). But the line was only made by Bandai, not ARCO. Other than some Chinese bootlegs, there were no other MUSCLE version figures out there. And none were made in MUSCLE plastic.
Good theory though.
#13
phillymadison
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:40 PM
I think all the super rares (SHA, BHS, and DM) came from Japan in some way
I dont think they came out in american 4-packs or 10-packs but part of a Japanese line
kind of like the X-2 deal he came in that rameman (sp) thing (that thing looks sooooo cool!!!)
I have a feeling that the super rares (sounds like super friends lol) are a lot more common in Japan then here and that a few just migrated over some how
I don't know here's an easier question how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
I dont think they came out in american 4-packs or 10-packs but part of a Japanese line
kind of like the X-2 deal he came in that rameman (sp) thing (that thing looks sooooo cool!!!)
I have a feeling that the super rares (sounds like super friends lol) are a lot more common in Japan then here and that a few just migrated over some how
I don't know here's an easier question how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
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#14
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:49 PM
If it wasn't in 1986 with ARCO, then could it have been part of the 1987 deal with Bandai? That took place the following year.I think so, but I could be wrong.Am I way off here?
Mattel licensed the Kinnikuman line, which was at that time at Part 21 (SC, BHS, SHA, etc). But the line was only made by Bandai, not ARCO. Other than some Chinese bootlegs, there were no other MUSCLE version figures out there. And none were made in MUSCLE plastic.
Good theory though.
#15
ToyMan
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:50 PM
how hard is it to get part 21 in japan?Part 21 (SC, BHS, SHA, etc).
and we've actually confirmed that some of the super-rares came in muscle plastic?! i know that satan cross has been seen in muscle plastic, but i wasn't sure about the others...
#16
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:55 PM
Toyman, remember.For a moment let us assume that DM, BHS, and SHA are all 100% authentic MUSCLE’s.
However, the intention of this thread is not to debate their authenticity, but where did they come from.
#17
jkaris
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 12:58 PM
Part 21 is decently available, but they are EXPENSIVE! I paid $45 for my SHA Kinnikuman, when a part 20 or part 22 figure can be had for around $10 or less.
Yes, SHA, BHA are MUSCLE Plastic. DM is supposed to be too, according to Philly.
Yes, SHA, BHA are MUSCLE Plastic. DM is supposed to be too, according to Philly.
#18
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:00 PM
You too Johnny.For a moment let us assume that DM, BHS, and SHA are all 100% authentic MUSCLE’s.
However, the intention of this thread is not to debate their authenticity, but where did they come from.
#19
ToyMan
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:05 PM
cripes, dude! 
personally, i think it's important to know whether they're authentic, because that certainly limits the number of ways that it could have been introduced into the pool.
personally, i think it's important to know whether they're authentic, because that certainly limits the number of ways that it could have been introduced into the pool.
#20
Tortle
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:13 PM
But just because they're MUSCLE plastic, does that necessarily mean that they're authentic MUSCLEs? I think it's possible that Bandai released some figures in MUSCLE plastic in Japan. However, this is probably unlikely, as I don't think any of us have come across Kinkeshi that are as close to MUSCLEs as the super-rares.Yes, SHA, BHA are MUSCLE Plastic. DM is supposed to be too, according to Philly.
I'm just screwin' with ya, Veers...
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#21
MIWP
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 01:22 PM
Maybe they are super rare Kinnikuman figures. Maybe they were made in the same plant as U.S. M.U.S.C.L.E. figures and were made with the U.S. plastic on accident making them super rare Kinikuman figures.
#22
AmoiMan
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 02:04 PM
I still say they're health hazards. (didn't we discuss this recently?)
#23
Beligerant1
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 03:45 PM
maybe we're in the matrix and the super rare muscles are old programs that persist despite their replacement with newer more efficient programs (muscles on the poster).
Or
maybe we're in the matrix and the super rares are the combined result of the existence of a remainder in the ultimate equation
Or
maybe we're in the matrix and the super rares are the combined result of the existence of a remainder in the ultimate equation
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#24
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 05:15 PM
Interesting thread. After reading everyone's posts I have to say I like Nathan's recall theory the most. SHA and BHS are lawsuits waiting to happen with their small parts. But, like Nathan pointed out, that doesn't explain Drunken Master. Assuming it is an American MUSCLE, which I have my doubts, maybe it was pulled because he looked as if he were on drugs or drunk. It is possible that the Mattel Execs felt that might be unsuitable for small children or it might get parents upset.
#25
phillymadison
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Posted 03 June 2003 - 05:28 PM
Sorry VeersYes, SHA, BHS are MUSCLE Plastic. DM is supposed to be too, according to Philly.
DM is MUSCLE plastic this I am 100% sure of
I offered to Johnny to send him out to MUSCLE Con in my place so ppl can see him first hand
Though I have no Dought in my mind that DM is MUSCLE plastic I still think all super rares are some kind of Japanese figures made out of MUSCLE plastic
and if we lived in Japan we might not be talking about this lol
then again maybe there really really athentic bootlegs
I mean there have been some bootlegs of other Kinnuku figs that were sold in the states maybe that's a possiablity though the supply is still pretty low for bootlegs even
Also besides Alex and myself who else owns these super rares?
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