31 replies to this topic

[ssbmMARIOmaster]

Topic.

[Rokk]

I wouldn't say it didn't do well or that anything went wrong. It had a cartoon that had a two year run on the FoxBox. It had a toyline in America. It currently has a Romando action figure toyline, a Kubrick toyline and a series of collectible busts. It also has spawned a videogame for the GameCube and a videogame for the PS2. It also has manga that is going to be released over here in America. That is better than most manga titles.

Edited by Rokk, 16 July 2004 - 07:12 AM.

[doc_moore_j]

I agree, UM kicks arse. I do think the American UM toyline crumbled though.

Edited by doc_moore_j, 16 July 2004 - 07:13 AM.

[ssbmMARIOmaster]

i agree that it kicks arse but i dont think the show did as well as expected.

The video games where good but i feel not enough hype was shown or advertised to draw a giant crowd to the game.

Yes. the American toyline is canned unfourunately :-(

[Tortle]

I think your question is more along the lines of "Why was this not a huge hit?" Although it lasted a few seasons, it clearly didn't have the success of other cartoons like Pokemon, Dragonball Z, and the recent TMNT.

It's difficult to say why one cartoon becomes a fad while another languishes. Although many people like to formulate complex rationale for the "failure" (if you can call it that) of the series, I don't think that it's anyone's "fault" that UM was cancelled or that the toyline tanked. I don't think that lack of exposure had anything to do with it either: the series had high exposure on FoxBox, the toys were readily available in stores, and commercials for the toys advertised their availability. The video games didn't get much "hype", but frankly, that has more to do with the quality of the game than anything else. If the game was as fun for normal people than it was for MUSCLE-heads, game magazine reviews would certainly cause people to sit up and notice.

UM didn't do well simply because kids (for the most part) didn't care for it. Kids had every oportunity to get interested in UM, but they didn't buy into it. Maybe another toyline held their interest at the time. Perhaps they didn't like the repetitive nature of the cartoon. It could be that they didn't think the character designs were cool.

I'm sure we'd all like to believe that Bandai/FoxBox/whatever screwed it up, but the simple fact is that if kids liked it, it would be on the air right now. TMNT had the same beginnings of UM, but it's a hit now. What's the difference? Kids like TMNT for some reason, but not UM. If I knew why, I'd certainly not be a lowly computer programmer.

[TheOrgg]

While most of your points are valid, Nate, one of them is wrong. The toyline was not 'readily avaible,' unless by those words you mean 'you could get it all on Ebay.' I never saw anything other than two cases of the CCG and three sets of 1-4. In Any Store. At All. And I will not pay Scalper prices for $5 figures, so I was out of luck for the 6.5" Superarticulated guys.

The CCG's handling was ABYSSMAL. Boarderline Translated, no proper FAQ or rules on the site, no rulesteam to speak of. It was treated like collector's cards, not like a Card Game, which it is.

Bandai dropped the ball on the merchandise, and they aired the add several MONTHS before even what seemed to be the 'big markets' got the toys in.

[YoshiAngemon]

It DOES suck, so much that I would want to trade Ultimate Muscle for the Gamecube in for a better game title, namely MegaMan Battle Network 3 Blue OR MegaMan Battle Network 4 Blue Moon!

[Mr. S]

It did pretty good, a little better than most anime series thatc ome out here. Had the full first 2 season t.v run, where some shows got canned before the first season got finished, had a large toy series released which was pretty much US exclusive, im pretty sure the small PVC figures have yet to be released in japan, even though it was'nt as avaialble as some stuff. Had 3 video games released for it, and currently has the manga running. Availablity really isnt a good measurement of how sucessful something was. For something as obscure as Ultimate Muscle, especially it being a sequal to a un-hear dof show in the US, to have a full TV run is a pretty good victory. It's outlasted a lot of american TV shows and even more anime. Merchandise wise, I don't think it did too well, but it again probably did better than some toy lines, and im pretty sure its still in full blast up north since thats were I get all my UM toys.

[Drtooth]

Gonna have to agree on ol' Tortle here... the cartoon was successful, the toy line never took off.

Here's my theroies...

• A) More kids like Beyblade, mainly because it's EXACTLY like Pokemon and Yugioh... same reason why adults love Etreem make over since it's like Queer eye and such...
• Bad timing. The toy line probably would have made a dent somehow if they hyped it up before they released it, plus the release date of series 1 was supposed to be before christmas 2002, but if you recal, there was a dock worker port lockdown, and they didn't reach stores until just before or after Christmas, a really bad time.
• C) MUSCLE wasn't too popular back in the 80's unlike Transform,ers and He-man, so there wasn't too much of a crossover market for the toys besides the few fans.
• D0, mot important of all.... Kid Muscle, dispite the fact that he's 14 (and we know that) he was easily mistaken for 16+...

Why is the last one so important? Kids like kid characters. If you want to attract a lot of kids, you have to have a kid as a star. Look at the popular cartoons... Jimmy Neutron, Fairly Oddparents, Kids next Door. They feature 10 year olds, and 10 year olds like to see their kind doing something besides watching TV and playing video games. Why is Elmo so much more popular than other Sesame Street characters, when Sherlock Hemlock and Oscar are the best? 3 year olds love to see 3 year olds.

Therefore, Pokeyugidigi whatever success is owed to the fact that kid's are the stars. It's marketing fact. (As someone trying to break into the enterttainment biz, I know that stuff).... Plus it gives an explaination why Mucha Lucha (a similar theme) is a little more successful... kids likke kids.

Plus I'm not too sure anyone else around our age group likes the show... eveytime I mention it on anyother board, I'm ostrizied.....

[Tortle]

I never saw anything other than two cases of the CCG and three sets of 1-4.  In Any Store.  At All.

That's very strange. I would think that your case is the exception, not the norm.

I found that all the figures were readily available, regardless of the store and the state that I visited. The UM toys in my local stores sat collecting dust on the shelves for a little over a year, and as a matter of fact, I just saw a Ramenman figure at my local TRU this past weekend. The only way TRU is going to get rid of that figure is to toss it in the garbage.

Bandai dropped the ball on the merchandise, and they aired the add several MONTHS before even what seemed to be the 'big markets' got the toys in.

The toys were already on the shelves when the advertisements ran. Like I said, I'm not sure what happened with your location.

Frankly, here's my theories why it didn't catch on:

1) The toyline wasn't on-par with other lines. The 6.5" figures were generic-looking, lacking in detail and paint application. They also lacked any sort of interesting accessories.

The CCG line was too expensive, restricting the micro-figure collectors. Many collectors (like theorgg) also complained that the CCG game was poorly designed.

While I loved the micro-line, I realize that most kids and toy collectors would think it sucks. Most of the micro figures were unpainted, an aspect which I enjoyed... but kids probably looked on UM micro-figures as cheap, dollar-store toys. Virtually all other micro-scale lines are entirely painted. Crap, even gumball-machine figures are painted.

Maybe this does infer that Bandai "dropped the ball". However, it wasn't an availability or advertisement issue but a quality issue.

2) The cartoon was repetitive and formulaic. While the voice talent was great and the translation was witty, the basic storyline was a formula every week with no real direction. How many times do we have to see Kid Muscle panic about an opponent, get his butt whupped throughout most of the match, only to come back in the end with the power of Ultimate Muscle spurred on by his feelings of friendship?

Dragonball Z had a repetitive formula too, but the series had a direction. UM lacked that direction.

In this case, FoxBox didn't "drop the ball". In fact, I liked everything FoxBox did with the show. But the source material wasn't good enough to maintain the interest of kids.


I don't mean to belittle anyone who liked the show or the toys. I'm just saying that those are probably the reasons why most kids didn't get interested.

Edited by Tortle, 19 July 2004 - 08:20 AM.

[Drtooth]

I don't really think formulaic cartoons really bomb... I mean, Pokemon, Yugioh... stuff like that is REALLY repetitive and they seem to do alright. Hell... most EVERYTHING is formulaic.... The cartoon was successful, albiet mildly...

But I can tell... the reason it bombed in Japan? Not only was it Formulaic, but it took the formula of it's much superior predicessor "Kinnikuman." There isn't much they didn't completely copy from the first series. The poison Six pack? Just a copy of the 7 Devils saga.... with a buttman in it....

Fox Box indeed didn't drop the ball... hell... they were just about the only ones who saw something in the series. It may not have been the greatest, but at least it stood out against boastful kids with bad Lisa Simpson hair cuts. I really enjoyed it... though I have to admit... it was the only time a dub assisted in making the Japanese version better...

[Rokk]

I never saw anything other than two cases of the CCG and three sets of 1-4.  In Any Store.  At All.

That's very strange. I would think that your case is the exception, not the norm.

Well that is tough to say. To truly get a full and adequate answer one would either have to go to every toystore across the country which is impossible or for people to post how full or empty their local stores were with UM merchandise. In my area, UM merchandise was pretty scarce.

I agree with Tortle on why the toyline didn't take off. The quality of the 6.5" figures was dissapointing. The fact that all of the joints were the unpainted grey made the figures look cheap. The accessories that came with the figures were pretty lame. The way the figures were packaged made them look like cheap knock-off wrestling figures rather than super-hero fighters from a cool manga series.

The CCG was a total mess. The rules sucked and it seemed terribly half-assed.

I don't think that the anime being repetitive and formulaic was really much of a problem. Lots anime is that way. Especially DB and DBZ. I don't really even think that DB or DBZ had more direction to UM. I think UM had a direction. It just took for it to get into the second season to get that direction. Maybe if 4Kids hadn't messed with the story so much then the anime would have seemed like it had a direction sooner.

However, to say that UM "went wrong" seems pointless. There are thousands of manga titles that did not accomplish what UM did. A cartoon show for two seasons, 3 video games, an American toyline, several current Japanese toylines and an ongoing manga series. I think compared to the many manga titles out there, that UM did well and nothing particularly "went wrong." The odds of becoming another DBZ, Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh is pretty remote. That is like calling every QB in NFL history that isn't as good as Marino, Montana or Favre an unsuccessful player and that he "went wrong." Being a Jake Plummer, Jeff Garcia or Brad Johnson is still pretty damn good.

Edited by Rokk, 19 July 2004 - 08:53 AM.

[TheOrgg]

• D ) mot important of all.... Kid Muscle, dispite the fact that he's 14 (and we know that) he was easily mistaken for 16+...

Fourteen?

...wow.

I had assumed 18-20, as he's six feet tall and muscular as all get out... I kinda see how the kids wouldn't identify with the characters, now...

I still wish they had translated the cartoon a few years ago when the WWF was so popular. I really think it'd done much better at that point.

[max powerz]

I understood from everywhere I went he was between the ages of 17 and 21... Maybe I misread them

[KnuxieChan]

Nope. I was looking at the manga few weeks ago (the Japanese version)

Kid is indeed 14, which is really messed up. Wally's 14 as well @o;

I think if they had aimed UM for older audiences, they would have done better.

[Drtooth]

Plus, I wouldn't say the cartoon "bombed" or did badly. I recal hearing that it was their top rated show (or one of them) until Turtles came out, even then, it had good ratings. If it indeed didn't catch on, it would have disappeared with Ultraman Tiga (How's that for revenge, Kinnikuman?) Stargate Infinity, and Fooding Foodongs (or whatever the hell it was called) in the first season. I doubt if it didn't do well, 4Kids would have pulled the strings to get the Chojin Olympics saga for American broadcast. I just think they didn't feel it necessary to rerun the episodes anymore over the summer, so they can show crappy mid-season replacements...

[Mr. S]

• D ) mot important of all.... Kid Muscle, dispite the fact that he's 14 (and we know that) he was easily mistaken for 16+...

Fourteen?

...wow.

I had assumed 18-20, as he's six feet tall and muscular as all get out... I kinda see how the kids wouldn't identify with the characters, now...

14? Egad, did his mom stuff steroids into his gyudon? I dont even think Kinnikuman was THAT buff at 14, how old was he in the manga anyway? I always assumed 20ish. But I wouldnt say the fact kids couldnt relate to the characters in UM was one of the reasons it wasnt as popular as say Ninja Turtles whichs kids will have a HARDER time relating too.

As for the toy lines not being to hot, I agree with the fact they looked cheap and not gimmiky, its like why Transformers are popular with kids, big, colorfull, cool looking and more gimmiks than a futuristic japanese car. I think the 1.5'' were kinda...iono I assume bandai thought they would be as popular as MUSCLEs, cuz if anyone say the deal at the toyshow, you could tell they were tryin to mimic MUSCLE as hard as possible, with the poster, 40 packs and so forth. I think what they failed to see was the 80's was a simpler time, people made less money, and kick arse toys werent all that common at least not for a price a parent was willing to pay. MUSCLEs were cheap enough to be bought often and the random factor made it more intresting. I think that was a marketing mistake on the UM line. There's really no collective aspect other than the silver's, and since theres only 1 per Series, it's not like you could trade anything for that silver the owner probably doesnt have already. Aside from maybe a diffrent toy or a clear figure. It's like, you buy all 12 sets now you have every one except for the chase figures. If it were more collectable like MUSCLE it might've taken off more, but kids these days with thier MTV and thier power rangers, might look at a 1.5 inch piece of PVC shaped like Kid Muscle and go "teh"

Anyway but the fact Ultimate Muscle had the full run on a Sat. morning cartoon slot, which is probably the most competative TV time slot in the cartoon industry, is more than enough to say it was sucessfull. We all seen shows come and go on the Fox Box/Fox Morning Sat., like Escaflowne, Moncolle Nights, Fighting Foodons, Ultraman Tiga (haha...that was a good one) and abuncha others, the fact UM stayed the whole time means it was at least sucessfull on a ratings scale. Heck, its already outlasted most anime on T.V at this point.

[Drtooth]

Exactly... The toys didn't do much. Though the action gigures had a crap load of articulation (Especially compaired to the Justive League toys.... Poor Batman had rigor mortis...) that was about the only thing they did. Beyblade was a piece of crap, but the toys DID something. And kid's toys are basically given to them to shut them up, then they sell them or throw them away 3 months later (I hung on to whatever my mother didn't take from me. Still have a Kermit the Frog doll I had since I was 4! In good condition too!) Plus, MUSCLE, unlike Transformers, He-man, GI Joe, or (GAG!!! ACK!) Strawberry Shortcake, wasn't too popular back when it WAS in style. Sure, it spun off a short lived micro figure fad with NINJAS, GUTS (achem... ripoffs) and Monster in my Pocket.

That said, they did pretty well in my area. Sold out juuuuust before they went on clearance, save the CCG and a few G1 character action figures (Robin and Ramenman, of course).

But it's sad that this didn't have a higher adult audience. It got bad word of mouth (I tried to get some people to watch it, as best I could) In a way, it's pretty hypocritical.... I mean, I've looked into a lot of anime, and most of the popular ones are either dilleberate Toy commercials (Pokemon, Yugioh) or dull as dishwater adult shows (all seemingly stealing...err..borrowing from Akira, Lupin, and Gundam.) I mean, I've found some great ones I really like.... amoung them Spirited Away, Akira, Dragon Ball (original... back when they actually LOOKED for the balls) and of course, my favorite, Lupin III....

But it pretty much cheeses me off that the new popular Kiddy anime is Dual Masters.... god... it even sounds and LOOKS like a Korean bootlegg they sell in dollar stores....they're not even trying to disguise ripping someone off now....

But then again, at least they show gracefully bowed out before it got too repetitive... like other animes dubbed by said 4Kids.....

[Mr. S]

But it's sad that this didn't have a higher adult audience. It got bad word of mouth (I tried to get some people to watch it, as best I could) In a way, it's pretty hypocritical.... I mean, I've looked into a lot of anime, and most of the popular ones are either dilleberate Toy commercials (Pokemon, Yugioh) or dull as dishwater adult shows (all seemingly stealing...err..borrowing from Akira, Lupin, and Gundam.) I mean, I've found some great ones I really like.... amoung them Spirited Away, Akira, Dragon Ball (original... back when they actually LOOKED for the balls) and of course, my favorite, Lupin III....

But it pretty much cheeses me off that the new popular Kiddy anime is Dual Masters.... god... it even sounds and LOOKS like a Korean bootlegg they sell in dollar stores....they're not even trying to disguise ripping someone off now....

Well im apretty avid anime fan, though i've kinda ducked out since most "hardcore" anime fans nowandays are total jack asses who wont give anything not from japan even a glance and think anything japan touches is pure gold and blah blah blah. Anyway I have apretty good database of anime culture in the U.S and it regarding the public eye, its only been about 5 or 10 years since animes been widely accepted. But its still pretty much regarded as a left or right type deal, it's either a sugary kiddy show or a hardcore X rated adult show to the general populous. So shows like UM which is aimed at young teen to young adult might not sit well with kids, and the demographic it's being aimed at regards it as kids stuff so they refuse to watch it. As sad as it is, basically an anime is pretty much only as popular as its merchandise, like I used to be a hardcore Gundam fan untill I saw Gundam Seed which is basically a platform for the model kits/action figures/ and all that jazz. They tried to give it a good story but it was just ridiculous but regardless it's still popular. I suppose UM woulda been more popular if maybe they had some dummed down versions of the ROmando figures with more accesories or something along those lines. I own all 3 UM games in the states and while I enjoy em all, there not really good enough to make a beliver out of a non believer.

[YoshiAngemon]

Don't diss a show that's as funny as Duel Masters. Remember the episode "Cable Guy," Where Rakudah(sp?) was knocked into space, hitting a satellite? That was a funny moment. Then again, so are the other times he gets knocked into the air.

[Rokk]

Don't diss a show that's as funny as Duel Masters. Remember the episode "Cable Guy," Where Rakudah(sp?) was knocked into space, hitting a satellite? That was a funny moment. Then again, so are the other times he gets knocked into the air.

Who would dare diss such a masterpiece as Duel Masters? I mean, it makes you laugh. It makes you cry. It is better than Cats!

[Imp]

Don't diss a show that's as funny as Duel Masters. Remember the episode "Cable Guy," Where Rakudah(sp?) was knocked into space, hitting a satellite? That was a funny moment. Then again, so are the other times he gets knocked into the air.

Who would dare diss such a masterpiece as Duel Masters? I mean, it makes you laugh. It makes you cry. It is better than Cats!

SOLO:
You ought to ask Mr. Mistoffolees!
The original conjuring cat

The greatest magicians have something to learn
From Mister Mistoffolees' conjuring turn
And you'll all say

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

He is quiet, he is small, he is black
From the ears to the tip of his tail
He can creep through the tiniest crack
He can walk on the narrowest rail

He can pick any card from a pack
He is equally cunning with dice
He is always deceiving you into believing
That he's only hunting for mice

He can play any trick with a cork
Or a spoon and a bit of fish paste
If you look for a knife or a fork
And you think it is merely misplaced

You have seen it one moment and then it's gone!
But you find it next week lying on the lawn
And we all say

ALL:
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

And we all say
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

And we all say
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

And we all say
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

MR. MISTOFFOLEES:
Well! My manner is vague and aloof
You would think there was nobody shyer
But voice has been heard on the roof
When I was curled up by the fire

And I've sometimes been heard by the fire
When I was about on the roof
At least they all heard that somebody purred
Which is uncontestable proof of my singular magical powers
And I've known the family to call me in from the garden for hours
While I was asleep in the hall

SOLO:
And not long ago this phenomenal cat
Produced seven kittens right out of a hat

ALL:
And we all say
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

SOLO:
And not long ago this phenomenal cat
Produced seven kittens right out of a hat

ALL:
And we all say
Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

Oh! Well I never was there ever
A cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistoffolees

SOLO:
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the magical Mr. Mistoffolees!

[TheOrgg]

Don't diss a show that's as funny as Duel Masters. Remember the episode "Cable Guy," Where Rakudah(sp?) was knocked into space, hitting a satellite? That was a funny moment. Then again, so are the other times he gets knocked into the air.

Who would dare diss such a masterpiece as Duel Masters? I mean, it makes you laugh. It makes you cry. It is better than Cats!

I saw one episode of DuelMasters; it was the one where a male character met a female that played the game as well... Other than that near-impossibility, the show gave me nasty flashbacks to pre-highschool 5th or 6th grade... I was glad they didn't make it into something like YuGaeOh, as I've known of the property for a few years-- it is 'Magic: The Gathering almost-light' aimed at the kids. If you're a fan of the game, Yoshi, definatly give Magic a try.

Q: "Do you consider getting rid of basic lands? I'm very impressed by the changes Magic underwent since Sixth Edition, but I still don't like the part basic lands play in the game -- about 40% of a deck just there to put other cards in play. Magic introduced the 'growing resources' model but, since then, other games have provided very interesting alternatives to lands. Magic is the CCG that has evolved the most but basic lands stay the same. Could this be the focus of a long term change?" -- Stephane Bura

A: From Mark Gottlieb, Duel Masters Rules Manager:
"I could invoke tradition, economic models, or the like. But really, I have two simple answers to your question.

"Answer 1: Stephane, you may be interested in the upcoming Duel Masters trading card game, which will hit stores on March 5. Created by Wizards of the Coast, it's been a smash hit in Japan for two years. The game features ferocious combat between wickedly awesome creatures. It was designed to be a cousin of Magic: A version of the color wheel is present, many game mechanics crossed over, and you summon creatures and cast spells by tapping cards for mana. The element of the game that may interest you the most is that every Duel Masters card, both creatures and spells, can also be used as a mana card! The game has no "lands." Instead, you can put one card a turn from your hand into your "mana zone." Once there, it does nothing but produce mana. When you tap it, it will make one mana of its color that you can use to cast other creatures and spells.

"Answer 2: No way. Never. Not a chance."

Most of you know Gottlieb as a demented deckbuilder that needs to be smacked with a dowel rod every now and again, but he's actually contributed quite a bit to the game of Magic through his excellent names and flavor text. (Perhaps he should take over those roles on Duel Masters as well. That game has vanilla 2/2's with names like 'Blood-Skull Francona, Death Governor.'Weird.)

Edited by theorgg, 25 July 2004 - 04:09 PM.

[Rokk]

That was beautiful, Imp!

[Imp]

Lands, mana zones, color wheels....

All it means is more cash from the kids pockets to the manufacturers.

And a big ol' headache for me trying to figure it all out...

Rokk Posted on Jul 26 2004, 09:08 AM

  That was beautiful, Imp! 

Ah, you are welcome. I just wish I could have seen it in person, but the video was pretty good.

Edited by Imp, 26 July 2004 - 02:09 PM.