385 replies to this topic

[rafael]

guys, sorry for the really really noob question, and if its wrong to ask here, feel free to erase this:


as far as i understood, some new super rare figures was found not a long ago.
how come?
how is this possible?
isnt the series a couple of decades old?

nobody ever notice or found any of these new super rares till recently?

[arforbes]

guys, sorry for the really really noob question, and if its wrong to ask here, feel free to erase this:


as far as i understood, some new super rare figures was found not a long ago.
how come?
how is this possible?
isnt the series a couple of decades old?

nobody ever notice or found any of these new super rares till recently?

Yes, to answer your first question...

The Magnificent 11 were discovered by Jkaris not too long ago, here is a link to Nathan's Muscle Page describing the Super Rares and their discovery...

http://www.nathansmu...asp?menu=muscle


They were discovered on Yahoo Japan in an auction for a complete Muscle 28-Pack

We are still unsure of how the Super Rares came about or why they were made, but the top theories are that they were produced early in the Muscle line and that they were pulled or stopped production on once Mattel had decided which 233 figures were actually going to make up the Muscle toyline. It is also believed that they are mistakes that slipped past the radar and were just accidentally produced. Others think that they are salesman samples.

And for your last question, yes Muscles are over 20 years old, they first came out in 1984 I believe.

[rafael]

guys, sorry for the really really noob question, and if its wrong to ask here, feel free to erase this:


as far as i understood, some new super rare figures was found not a long ago.
how come?
how is this possible?
isnt the series a couple of decades old?

nobody ever notice or found any of these new super rares till recently?

Yes, to answer your first question...

The Magnificent 11 were discovered by Jkaris not too long ago, here is a link to Nathan's Muscle Page describing the Super Rares and their discovery...

http://www.nathansmu...asp?menu=muscle


They were discovered on Yahoo Japan in an auction for a complete Muscle 28-Pack

We are still unsure of how the Super Rares came about or why they were made, but the top theories are that they were produced early in the Muscle line and that they were pulled or stopped production on once Mattel had decided which 233 figures were actually going to make up the Muscle toyline. It is also believed that they are mistakes that slipped past the radar and were just accidentally produced. Others think that they are salesman samples.

And for your last question, yes Muscles are over 20 years old, they first came out in 1984 I believe.

gee, isnt this the coolest collection ever!?

i mean, 20 year since they stop making this rubber fellows and we STILL have surprises!!!

"yey" for us!


oh, tx for the quick answer, btw

[arforbes]

Surely no problem.

[Neo Muscle]

Hi guys I have not been on this board as long as some of you here but I have looked around enough to know the theories thrown around about the Super rares. I work in a steel fabrication and we make various items of all sizes. Now every once in a while a part is made too big or too small or backward in some rare cases. Now do we throw these parts out? No, we call the company who ordered it and they decide to either keep it or have us redo it. Now 9 times out of 10 they keep it as they can use it for another apllication. Now isn't it possible that the Kinkeshi and M.U.S.C.L.E. toys were made in the same factory? Isn't it also possible that a "new" employee or an inexperienced one used the wrong mold or wrong rubber mixture. Now instead of tossing them out couldnt they have still packeged them because lets face it kids wont care if they arnt on the poster. Does this seem plausible or am I too naive?

[Soupie]

Okay, I think I have stumbled upon something SIGNIFICANT here! Of course, I'll need Jkaris, Veers, and URS to rip it apart and tell me where I'm wrong... if they can.

I think I have good evidence to PROVE that the non-MUSCLE sculpts were purposefully LEFT out of the MUSCLE line. (And unlike Part 16, where it looks like a WHOLE tree or two was left out of the line -- Part 16 -- in this case, I think I can pin point where certain sculpts were purposefully left out of the line -- as opposed to being purely an accident.)

In other words, I think this would negate the idea that the non-MUSCLE sculpts were some type of error.

Exhibit A:

First look at Part 5 on Naochin's site. Check out the 5 sculpts set apart at the bottom.

Now, look at MUSCLE Part 5 of the MCIA. Check out the 4 sculpts at the bottom.

Now look at the graphical representation of Part 5.

Part Five



The tree you want to be looking at is tree 4 (you can tell by the color pattern). Now, the 1st thing we notice is that I got it's sculpt number wrong... as we know from looking at Naochin's site, this tree should only have 1 of the non-MUSCLE sculpts, not 2. The 2nd thing we should note is that this tree belongs to the EXCLUSIVE Cosmic Crunchers, which needs exactly 28 sculpts.

Therefore, we can conclude that Mattel/Bandai new from the start that this tree would ONLY be producing 4 figures, which is why it was chosen to be in a 28 pack. Obviously, they needed a tree with 4 sculpts. (Now, dare we say they left a sculpt off SO it could be used? I think that is pushing things a bit far.)

Exhibit B:

First look at the 4 guys on the bottom of Part 6 at Naochin's site.

Now look at the 2 guys on the bottom of Part 6 of the MCIA.

Now look at the graphical representation of Part 6:

Part Six



You should be looking at the 2nd tree. Again, we know now from Naochin's site that this tree should actually have 4 sculpts... so once again, I was wrong to only place one of the non-MUSCLE sculpts with this tree. (Which goes to show that most of my non-MUSCLE sculpt placements are probably inaccurate.)

And once again, we see that this tree is part of a 28-pack. So, once again we can conclude that Mattel/Bandai knew this tree would not be producing the normal amount of sculpts BEFORE production began as it was chosen to be part of the 28 packs!

What's more, both of the trees in this part were chosen, and this part is definitely missing 2 sculpts!

So, while this may not be a HUGE discovery... I believe it does close the case on the idea (my favorite ) that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were the result of errors during the molding process.

(1) Of course, this might not apply to ALL the non-MUSCLE sculpts, but it does tell us for a FACT that certain sculpts -- right from the start -- were chosen not to be MUSCLEs.

(2) It is also still possible, I suppose, that these non-MUSCLE sculpts were on their own, individual trees, but looking at Naochin's site, that seems unlikely.

Edited by Soupie, 02 August 2007 - 03:49 PM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Okay, I think I have stumbled upon something SIGNIFICANT here! Of course, I'll need Jkaris, Veers, and URS to rip it apart and tell me where I'm wrong... if they can.

I think I have good evidence to PROVE that the non-MUSCLE sculpts were purposefully LEFT out of the MUSCLE line. (And unlike Part 16, where it looks like a WHOLE tree or two was left out of the line -- Part 16 -- in this case, I think I can pin point where certain sculpts were purposefully left out of the line -- as opposed to being purely an accident.)

In other words, I think this would negate the idea that the non-MUSCLE sculpts were some type of error.

Exhibit A:

First look at Part 5 on Naochin's site. Check out the 5 sculpts set apart at the bottom.

Now, look at MUSCLE Part 5 of the MCIA. Check out the 4 sculpts at the bottom.

Now look at the graphical representation of Part 5.

Part Five



The tree you want to be looking at is tree 4 (you can tell by the color pattern). Now, the 1st thing we notice is that I got it's sculpt number wrong... as we know from looking at Naochin's site, this tree should only have 1 of the non-MUSCLE sculpts, not 2. The 2nd thing we should note is that this tree belongs to the EXCLUSIVE Cosmic Crunchers, which needs exactly 28 sculpts.

Therefore, we can conclude that Mattel/Bandai new from the start that this tree would ONLY be producing 4 figures, which is why it was chosen to be in a 28 pack. Obviously, they needed a tree with 4 sculpts. (Now, dare we say they left a sculpt off SO it could be used? I think that is pushing things a bit far.)

Exhibit B:

First look at the 4 guys on the bottom of Part 6 at Naochin's site.

Now look at the 2 guys on the bottom of Part 6 of the MCIA.

Now look at the graphical representation of Part 6:

Part Six



You should be looking at the 2nd tree. Again, we know now from Naochin's site that this tree should actually have 4 sculpts... so once again, I was wrong to only place one of the non-MUSCLE sculpts with this tree. (Which goes to show that most of my non-MUSCLE sculpt placements are probably inaccurate.)

And once again, we see that this tree is part of a 28-pack. So, once again we can conclude that Mattel/Bandai knew this tree would not be producing the normal amount of sculpts BEFORE production began as it was chosen to be part of the 28 packs!

What's more, both of the trees in this part were chosen, and this part is definitely missing 2 sculpts!

So, while this may not be a HUGE discovery... I believe it does close the case on the idea (my favorite ) that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were the result of errors during the molding process.

(1) Of course, this might not apply to ALL the non-MUSCLE sculpts, but it does tell us for a FACT that certain sculpts -- right from the start -- were chosen not to be MUSCLEs.

(2) It is also still possible, I suppose, that these non-MUSCLE sculpts were on their own, individual trees, but looking at Naochin's site, that seems unlikely.

Sorry, I just don't see it. Both bottom rows of figures from the parts mentioned fall into the same conundrum that #161 Atlantis comes from. Naochin only separates these figures from the rest because they were not initially released with the first wave of figures from those parts. He makes notes at the bottom of both parts page that states that these bottom rows were released some time after the first rows. Just like #161, each figure could have had it's own separate tree for all we know. The way Naochin words his notes makes it appear that he is unsure whether the bottom figures were released at the same time. It really isn't far fetched for a single figure, or even two figures to have been released on their own tree in multiples, especially when the figures might need to catch up with the other figures released before they were. I'm just not sure you should place the non-muscle sculpts on any tree until we can be pretty sure they belong there. I still would like to see some Kinkeshi 28 packs as well. This may back up your thoughts Soupie. I just don't think there is enough data to back any of this up. Although it really is just hypothesizing. I will agree though that I think the Super Rares are production errors.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Okay! Now here are some results! Check this out! Remember what I said about Naochin's notes at the bottom of the pages. He also makes note that the bottom figures are advertised on the mini booklets from their parts, but they were basically listed as coming soon. So they were listed as being from those parts, but they were released later on in the line. Here is what I found with Part six figures #'s 80 and 94.


Take a look at the Dark Blue figures in this Mighty Maulers 28 pack Jkaris sent me pics of. They are Part 6 tree 2's 80 and 94, and Part 7 tree 2's 87 and 115.



Now Check this out!!! This is just the bar graphs, but Soupie look at the numbers of these two trees on the original word graphs I sent you.



I'm gonna look to see if I find some other similarities with the other similar trees. It seems that these 2 part 6 figures were made after the first part 6 figures, and seem to have been released with part 7 figures. It is more than likely that these part 6 figures were made on the same tree as the 2 part 7 figures. Man I love this hobby!

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Forgot to mention that this info is relevant to the Super Rares and other Non-Muscle Sculpts, cause it means that it's possible some of the nonMusscle sculpts from parts 5, and 6 could have been released the same way.

[Soupie]

Excellent work, URS. I knew those little anomalies could reveal something! (And you'll see that I followed up on this idea, and I think the #161 sculpt actually belongs to a tree from Part 2.)

Sorry, I just don't see it. Both bottom rows of figures from the parts mentioned fall into the same conundrum that #161 Atlantis comes from. Naochin only separates these figures from the rest because they were not initially released with the first wave of figures from those parts. ... Just like #161, each figure could have had it's own separate tree for all we know.

Yes, and I did mention that was a possibility...

But, like you show with those two sculpts from Part 6 actually being from part 7, though we can't know for certain, but since ALL the figures Naochin has set apart were late, I'd bet they were ALL on the same tree. (As opposed to all being on their own tree.) Especially if -- as I now strongly suspect -- that #161 wasn't on it's own tree, but part of a large tree from Part 2.

And URS, what about the other suspicious tree ones in Part 6 and 7? It also looks like these two tress are also ONE tree with sculpts from two different parts!



Which makes perfect sense as I'm sure some of the parts and what sculpts they would have were mapped out together. Which brings me back to the 4-5 sculpts per tree issue. The "designers" of these molds/trees seem to have done a pretty good job of keeping them balanced and at an "efficient" size.

I'm going to go out on a limb -- especially with the new info about #161 -- and say that I don't think the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were on their own trees. You can now see that Bandai was willing to combine extra sculpts with trees from another part -- probably all in the name of efficiency!

Awesome, awesome work URS! I'm sure there's still more to uncover. I'll kick out some more data and graphs, throw out some more theories, and we'll see what bubbles up.

Edited by Soupie, 04 August 2007 - 03:25 PM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Hopefully we will find something else. If it wasn't for your pretty colored graphs, I would have never really put two and two together! A large number of Super Rares, may in fact have been on larger trees from different parts. Maybe Parts 1 and 2 were not significantly far apart from each other on release date, and maybe Brocken from part 1 was released on the Part two tree with the other nonmuscles. This crap just keeps popping out from the woodworks doesn't it! Too bad me and you are the only ones that really understand what's happening. We will try to make up some way to explain it, but only Veers and Johnny will probably really care. Ah well, I'm still liking this.

[arforbes]

This crap just keeps popping out from the woodworks doesn't it! Too bad me and you are the only ones that really understand what's happening. We will try to make up some way to explain it, but only Veers and Johnny will probably really care. Ah well, I'm still liking this.

I care dude! I have been watching this thread too, these theories are blowing me away and the data too back them up is astounding...imagine that 1 little tree discovery and the dedicated work of a few Muslce heads would produce this type of data...amazing!

[Soupie]

I care dude! I have been watching this thread too, these theories are blowing me away and the data too back them up is astounding...imagine that 1 little tree discovery and the dedicated work of a few Muslce heads would produce this type of data...amazing!

Yeah, speaking of that 1st tree you found... when are you planning on revealing the next one? Hurry, up, would ya?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I care dude! I have been watching this thread too, these theories are blowing me away and the data too back them up is astounding...imagine that 1 little tree discovery and the dedicated work of a few Muslce heads would produce this type of data...amazing!

Yeah, speaking of that 1st tree you found... when are you planning on revealing the next one? Hurry, up, would ya?

Yeah I know! If you didn't even find or at the very least show that string to us, we would have never figured any of this crap out! That string truly is a part of Muscle Collector History! There are surely more of them out there to find! I hope that some surface soon. Who knows what info they could reveal.

[meatcutta78]

Little by little im starting to understand this.What really blows my mind is that you guys put some solid work into all of this and for that alone
im checking up everytime something new pops up.I am eager to understand so keep on teaching and ill keep on learning.I will try to help any chance i can,Im not going anywhere so please keep on going with this.Funny as my collection grows so those my understanding for this little hobby of ours.

[Tortle]

Here's a little tidbit I got in an email recently :

I had a Spinning Head Ashura Man when iI was a Kid. He was a MUSCLE but I dont remember what package he came in. When I bought them I lived in Palmdale Ca, a which was a small town 1hr north of Los Angeles Ca.

I guess this can be considered evidence against the theory that Super-Rares were exclusive to foreign countries. Unless you think they came from Mexico. But MUSCLEs weren't even available in Mexico, right?

[Tortle]

I agree it's always iffy to rely on people's memories (including my own) but isn't that what we're basing the theory on? Claims from other people?

[Soupie]

You also have to consider that (1) of the Super Rares found, SHA along with BHS are the most "abundant," and (2) of the SRs claimed to have once been owned in childhood by people from time to time, again it is SHA and BHS that are most often sited.

At some point, one has to say: "Hey, maybe these reports of people having owned SHA and BHS are true." After all, there are people out there with uncommonly good memories, and not everyone is seeking to impress us nerdy toy collectors by saying they once own a small piece of pink plastic.

[jkaris]

All SRs so far have been found in the US,save for the 11 I found in Japan.

[gilgar]

You also have to consider that (1) of the Super Rares found, SHA along with BHS are the most "abundant," and (2) of the SRs claimed to have once been owned in childhood by people from time to time, again it is SHA and BHS that are most often sited.

At some point, one has to say: "Hey, maybe these reports of people having owned SHA and BHS are true." After all, there are people out there with uncommonly good memories, and not everyone is seeking to impress us nerdy toy collectors by saying they once own a small piece of pink plastic.

BHA & SHA closely resemble regular MUSCLE figures and could easily create a false/faulty memory in those who were little kids 20 years ago

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I agree with you Gilgar, but I also agree with Soupie. If you had a Sunshine fig when you were a kid, you could easily misconstrue that you owned a Black Hole Sunshine. (though I wouldn't have forgotten that hole in his chest) But there are also people who have uncanny memories. I have a pretty good memory about alot of things from when I was a kid, but I also know there are things I now see and for some reason feel like I've seen it before, or actually had one. Although it is very unlikely.

Man I'm bored. I've been waiting patiently for some new info to pop up.....maybe I need to go rummage through the graphs and data somemore and see if anything catches my eye.

[Soupie]

BHA & SHA closely resemble regular MUSCLE figures and could easily create a false/faulty memory in those who were little kids 20 years ago

So does that mean people who claim to have these figures and then turn around and sell them for $$$ are mistaken too?

I agree that SHA and BHS have common MUSCLE counterparts that they closely resemble, but it's hard to be mistaken about owning a MUSCLE figure with "detachable" parts. For instance, I'm not a MIMP collector and never have been. However, as a kid and over the years I have owned many MIMP figures. I don't know what series they belonged to, what their names are, or how common or rare any of them were and in my opinion many of them look similar. However, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never owned a MIMP with detachable parts and if I had, I'd remember it.

But let's rewind several years to the time before the first SHA popped onto the scene -- the first of the SRs to be discovered. As we know now, there are several SHAs and headless SHAs out there. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet really good money that (1) there are SHAs out there that people don't know they have, and (2) there are SHAs out there that people have but don't know about LRG or don't care to tell LRG.

Let's say that someone stopped by LRG (AKIA) and said: "I was looking at that Naochin guy's site, and you know that Kinnikuman keshi Ashuraman with the head that spins? Well, I have one of them in MUSCLE plastic!" This claim would demand intense skepticism. However, fast forward several years to a time when multiple SHAs and HSHAs have been found as well as several other MUSCLE SRs. If someone were to make the same claim, I believe, knowing what we know now, it would be silly to treat it with the same level of skepticism. That is, to compare it to some kid who said he saw one at a Salvation Army.

I mean, I can't put a percentage on it or anything, but I'd say the chances that someone who comes off as half serious and sincere and goes out of their way to email Tortle has a pretty good chance of being correct when they say: I used to own a MUSCLE figures whose head could be spun around and even popped off.

[Soupie]

Out of curiousity, was Midge's SHA the first Super Rare figure to be found? I've read that there was another SHA that showed up on eBay around the same time and was won by someone who was apparently not a member of the MUSCLE Preservation Society or AKIA. Has that SHA ever been accounted for?

(Funny to think this all predated the arrival of Arforbes onto the scene.)

[Tortle]

All SRs so far have been found in the US,save for the 11 I found in Japan.

Also, the blue Colored Super-Rares were from Japan.

I think the theory is that the Super-Rares were available in a foreign country (like Canada) and managed to find their way over the border here. According to this theory, that's why they're so rare; not only were they exclusive to Canada, but also they had to somehow find their way over here.

But if this guy is correct, that would pretty much eliminate Canada as a possibility since he supposedly bought the figures in Los Angeles. Unless MUSCLEs were available in Mexico, and the Super-Rares were exclusive to many different foreign countries.

I think Soupie may have touched on something: SHA and BHS are, of the Super-Rares, by far the most common. So, different theories could apply to different figures.

But anyway, take that guy's statement as you may. But just remember, we're basing this theory primarily on what people say, whether it's this guy or a guy who's selling one on eBay and recounting how he bought it.