430 replies to this topic

[PimpNugget]

It's P! that needs to explain their responces to the issues and killing of KS.

No matter who is responsible for the unraveling of events the whole project needs to be looked at very closely and determine if it is still a sound decision. Is to much interest lost?

For the guys crying about their "free toy" and what they're owed, stop it, you're not out or owed anything.

[albaldwin83]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd join in the debate. I have to say that my biggest disappointment was that when it was cancelled, I honestly believed from the message that it was because of a fantastic new opportunity that was going to make this whole thing feel even better. When I saw the explanation for the cancellation, my heart really did sink as it was nothing like what I expected. I definitely felt decieved on that front.

When we got the first tasters of this toyline I was not immediately sold at all and it took me quite a while to really get interested. Infact I can say for sure that it was only when the Kickstarter Project was in full flow that I started to really feel the love for ROTB and wanted to be a part of it, and indeed felt like a part of it. I have to say that a lot of the magic for me has died as a result of the cancellation.

However, I do sympathise with Jon on this because he was put in an extremely difficult position and had to make a call and infact I think he did exactly what I would have done myself. This is just one of those things and is a real shame but I wish this project the best of luck for the future.

I know this line will still go ahead, but I do definitely feel a little bit gutted at what has just unfolded. Oh well, on with the show I guess.

[walker13.1]

I'm not gonna lie guys, im still gonna rub one out to that video later.

Too much information!

[McCTXToys]

Sure is a lot of hissy fittin' over no ones money spent. Imagine the nerd rage when y'all would have received 80mm figs instead of 60mm figs.

Good call jkaris.

[Muscle Things]

Sure is a lot of hissy fittin' over no ones money spent. Imagine the nerd rage when y'all would have received 80mm figs instead of 60mm figs.

Good call jkaris.

Well said

[jkaris]

Phil Reed at Battlegrip posted a speculative piece on his blog, so I figured I would clear a few things up. Here is my response. It's a bit longer than I anticipated.

Hi guys!

Just to give some clarification here.

My work with the guys at Plastic Imagination has been ongoing since June of last year when they approached me to help them get their start-up toy company going. This specific project has been in the works for over 8 months now. Just about every option has been looked at since then. From everything domestic to using China. The original intent of the project was to release one figure at a time and let the sales of that figure fund the next. In pouring over dozens of possibilities, we ended up going with a factory in China that has a proven track record of making high quality PVC toys. Why them? They had a great quote and a good reputation.

Throughout the process, dozens of factories were talked to and over a dozen of them provided quotes. When a factory was selected, two quotes were revised. One for a smaller run of 1 figure (to be run initially) and the other for a larger run of multiple figures (to see what kind of price break on a longer run, more sculpts). Funds were put in place to make the smaller run, to see how well they could produce the figures at the 60mm scale.

Once that was settled, we decided to look into the viability of funding the large run via Kickstarter instead of releasing them 1 figure at a time. As far as the $11k goes, that works out to about $10k after KS and Amazon take their cut.
$10k factored in:
Costs already put into the project
The cost of the large order
Inspection fees
A high estimate on shipping from China to here
and the cost of shipping out x reward packages

That is where that number came up, plus a little extra in case of any unforeseen costs. And while the success of OMFG on Kickstarter is definitely where the idea to use Kickstarter to fund the larger run came from, the funding number itself was definitely not arbitrary or based on OMFG at all.

Leading into the Kickstarter project, the order had already been placed for the smaller run and was only awaiting payment, which was made shortly thereafter. The factory said that they would have pictures of samples 20 days after payment was received. Being that they had a solid reputation online we didn't doubt them. They had been saying for over a month prior that yes, 60mm was no problem at all, the basic articulation was no issue and the paint apps and packaging (originally intended to be a blister pack, later changed to a blind box) was no problem. We also saw examples of current and past items they had manufactured.

So the Kickstarter was launched, the payment was sent and the idea was to have a working sample about a week before the end of the Kickstarter project and a final product from the first run in hand before any of the pledgers money was ever used. This created 2 fail-safes.

1. If the samples came back less than what we were promised, we would have ample time to cancel the Kickstarter, and
2. If the samples were great, we would have a final product in hand before the other order was even placed, let alone paid for.

There was a bump in the road in getting payment to the factory though, that delayed them receiving it by 12 days, which was entirely on the sending bank. That being said, it delayed the sample enough to where it might not be in before the end of the project. Had that not occurred the 60mm/80mm issue would have been known 10 days earlier and the project would have been updated or cancelled then.

To be honest, up until Friday, I did not expect it to hit the goal. We were no longer on track to hit and it looked like interest had waned. That wasn't really an issue as the plan would have then reverted to 1 figure at a time. However, Friday night a couple large backers came through and we passed $11k. From there it was a matter of trying to go even higher to be able to fund more figures in the initial wave and get a better price on volume. The factory had been communicating fine, they were tooling the figure for the mold and it wasn't until the very end when they came back and said, "Sorry, 60mm is just too small. 80mm is the minimum for these figures". We got some clarification from them last night as to why and there is an issue in keeping the detail in the mold at the smaller size via the process they use.

So there we were, past $11k, past $14k and right at the tip of $17k when the current factory dropped the bomb with little time left on the clock. What do do?

Well, there was certainly not a mad rush to find other factories, although throughout the entire process other factories were still being contacted and quotes acquired. Why vet other factories when you have one already? Lots of reasons. Getting better prices, making different style figures (4", 7"), not putting all your eggs in one basket, etc. etc. So there were other options for factories already in place. Could we have let it fund and then taken the quote from another factory? Sure, we could have. But what if these other factories couldn't run the 60mm figures? We had just had one factory back down as to what they said they could do, so why trust another 100%?

There was one factory that we would have trusted to give the business too, that I had been talking to about a HE-Man sized figure and the Series 3 figures. The subject of having them do the Kickstarter run came up the day prior, too (I would have pushed to switch factories in a heart-beat). After hearing the news about the 80mm that morning, I was anxiously awaiting a response from the aforementioned factory. If they had come back with a yes before the end of the Kickstarter, then the $17k would have funded and they would be making the figures instead of the current factory who is making the 80mm lion. But they hadn't gotten back in time and I wasn't willing to trust another factory 100% with someone else's money. The the only other option was to cancel. When they did get back that morning they said that they would not have been able to meet the numbers or time frame for this order anyways.

Up to that point I was talking to my buddy at Plastic Imagination about what to say after I cancelled the Kickstarter. I wanted to explain up front about the 80mm thing, He and the other guy at P! did not. They wanted to put a happy face on it. The happy face being two of the current factories (one local to him in Canada and the other one mentioned above) giving better options and lower runs than the current factory, plus one other option that I can't disclose. I told them that I though it was a mistake, but as Plastic Imagination is theirs and not mine, I acquiesced. Huge mistake. The shit hit the fan in a big way and I emailed him back saying that I needed to post about the factory issue. If they didn't agree, I would likely do it anyways and take heat from them for it. Anyone who has known me for years knows that I try to be as open as possible and don't spin anything. Having to, or rather agreeing to, post their statement put me in very a bad position and now my reputation has taken a pretty good hit.

So yes, two very big mistakes were made. The first was not having a final product in hand prior to launching the Kickstarter. We trusted that an established factory could do what they promised exactly and got burned for it. The other mistake was leading with their spin piece. I think that in itself was the bigger mistake. Had I come out with the factory issue initially, things would have not blown up and my personal reputation would not have taken that hit.

So now the positive. The factory in Canada is cutting a mold in the next 30 days, direct from the 3d. If they work out, that cuts down a lot of time and money for this and future projects. The other factory I mentioned is also still in talks. We will see how that goes. Myself, I would love to be able to work with the latter as there are some major benefits. There is also the 3rd option that looks very, very promising. I am really excited about it, but can't give any details yet.

As far as Kickstarter goes, we won't be taking a 2nd bite at that apple. At least not anytime in the near future. Being hosed by the factory like that last minute and having to dash the hopes of hundreds of people has pretty much killed it.

Going forward?

I still have full faith in the guys at P! and will still continue to work with them to get Plastic Imagination going strong. There is a lot more than Rise Of The Beasts in the pipeline and one bad judgement call on their part (the spin piece) doesn't change my friendship or respect for them. I have known them both personally for a long time know and they are great guys. They just made a bad call (as did I).

Rise of the Beasts will still be released, starting in June when the Gold Lion hits. People who were at the $45 level or higher before I cancelled will be getting a free gold lion as our way of saying thank you for supporting us and sorry for having to cancel like that. The remainder of that run will be sold. A free gold lion is great, but 80mm is not a very good in-between size so we don't want to continue the run at that height. That being said, the mold has already been paid for, so reorders will be cheap. I can see other 80mm lions down the road.

We have a lot of other possible pieces in the pipe for ROTB, a 6" He-Man styled figure, a GI Joe/Marvel sized figure, a comic, playsets, etc. We are getting quotes on these and if they are viable, we will do small runs to make sure we have a winner. But the focus right now is on Series 1 and getting them at 60mm. When (not if) those have come to market, the other sizes and stuff will be looked at closer.

[ironmask]

Well, in my opinion, take it with a grain of salt, if you like, is that the moment P! asked you to cosign onto their gimmick, they needed to accept how you choose to do business.
I'll reiterate, that I see no egg on your face, Jon, just maybe on theirs.

[oOMoSOo]

I myself have said some harsh things since this situation hit, I wasn't a fan of 3d printed static figures from the get go, I eventually changed my tune.
I get rude during situations of such nature I realize this.

Although I must admit I've heard a lot from Jon about this situation but not a word from P! that is where I continue being frustrated.
Having one guy stand here and take a beating from a HUGE group of people for a decision made by a group of people is burning my last nerve.
I for one would like to hear directly from P! as to why they felt it would be best to be dishonest from the get go!

As a community we toy collectors can go two ways, we are incredibly supportive when dealing with honest people with an honest mistake albeit bad judgment, or we can become enraged and eat said company alive when we feel lied to and/or used. P! needs to come out with a video apology directed to the KS supporting folks, it is a lot harder to be taken seriously and at your word while hiding behind a screen typing your explanation. Jon's said his part a thousand times over, I get it there were circumstances out of their control, but why just him taking the beating?

All that said, if this situation gets cleared up I'll be supportive once more. Its a good project with a fun direction and we can always use that.

[walker13.1]

All that said, if this situation gets cleared up I'll be supportive once more. Its a good project with a fun direction and we can always use that.

Yes, that is all I care about too. On to the next company that will provide the figures.

[Metalmonkey]

^ ditto. No point crying over spilt milk, let's just get these bad boys out there, @ 60mm like originally planned.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Spilt milk is very annoying though. It's not as bad as spilled soda though...if you miss any, it gets all sticky when you walk through the kitchen in the moring.

[Metalmonkey]

Lol. Yeah, I hate that! I'm the worst with cordial.How do the ants always know it there, huh? Mystery...

[Articulationnut]

...why would someone create a negative speculative piece rather than simply ask the source for the full information? Jon provided a very detailed explanation but a lot of people unfairly jumped the gun. According to Jons explanation there are other , superior factory options. Whats the problem with that? Nerd rage would have been insane had 80mm figures been delivered instead of 60mm. Better factory options seem like they saved ROTB. Well at least from being 80mm only.

If anyone has egg on their face it seems to be the folks that doubted that Jon or the people Jon trust wouldnt do the right thing. I want Rise of The beasts figures as much as the next member but we are talking toys here folks. We live in a weird age.

Ah well. The golden lions will be here soon

[nanoFatato]

Jon, you need to get paid from P! for your role of Public Relations Manager

[ironmask]

Jon, you need to get paid from P! for your role of Public Relations Manager

THIS.

[jkaris]

I split out the Rampageo stuff to the junk yard if anyone cares.

[Ridureyu]

You know what REALLY went wrong?

You guys didn't make an octopus figure. You angered Cthulhu.

[00Ice00]

The hell with all the Drama! Card not charged, no one ran with my money I don't care. Will follow the thread and see when I'm able to order these figures lol.

[Metalmonkey]

You know what REALLY went wrong?

You guys didn't make an octopus figure. You angered Cthulhu.

Lol, totally! I was thinking about doing one of these dudes!
My top 3 ideas.
1. Bat
2. Snake
3. Octopus/squid

[FANtomCore]

I should of pledged, I would of gotten a free Gold Lion, now I'll just have to buy when its available, oh well. As long as the ROTB continues forward, I'm a happy camper.

[imperfecz]

I will add comments to the big people sites when I'm sober and can organize my thoughts... but i put this:


To the guy running this crappy blog... you neglect to see the fact that China who we are in more debt to than I believe any country has ever been in lost a bid to someone closer to home.... and you're being a cockface on the board...

Check here for his foaming at the mouth bile:
http://www.littlerubberguys.com/forums/index.php?<link>showtopic=99382&view=findpost&p=390845</link>

Feel free to delete this post or alter it as you wouldn't want any truth to show here.

On cockface's cheezeball blog.....

Then I posted a non-pottymouth comment... if either survives I'll be surprised.

I want to come out in defense of Jon's character that is being attacked by people who don't know him and don't have as much knowledge of the situation as us... but when I can think a little clearer.

Love you guys and I'll say my piece when I can. Just been letting this all sink in and trying to not be reactionary. Thanks to this panty waste though I have someone to vent at and not care too much what I say.

Thank you all for your support. This is my extended family and group of all around good guys. We don't always get along, some of you rub me the wrong way.... but when the shit hits the fan we have each other's back.

To all the new faces around here...

Grab some popcorn and realize this is likely the tamest on board drama you'll read around here.

[Soupie]

Well, I just had a response written up also defending jkaris that was just wiped out due to a page refresh thanks to my effing ipad.

The bottom line is theres no reason to doubt jkaris's current explanation of things because hes proven to be an honest person, his current explanation makes sense, hes admitted making two serious poor decisions, and theres no benefit in further dishonesty.

For what it's worth, heres how I documented the situation on MXD:

Update: After shattering the goal of 11,000 pledge dollars and nearing $17,000, Jon Karis controversially cancelled the KickStarter campaign. He and Plastic Imagination initially indicated that the cancellation was due a better opportunity presenting itself to the company which they couldn't refuse. This left many individuals who had pledged money to the project feeling upset and even "used," as some people phrased it.

Shortly thereafter, Karis shared that the campaign had not actually been cancelled due to a better opportunity. Rather, according to Karis, it had been cancelled because he and PI had been informed by the contracted Chinese factory that the line could not be produced at the 60mm size, contrary to what they had been told earlier. The smallest scale in which the line could be produced by the factory was 80mm. Karis went on to explain that those individuals who had pledged at the $45 level would thus receive a free 80mm Golden Lion figure.

Some people who had pledged to the campaign vocalized anger and confusion, while others went on to criticize how the situation was handled.

Karis admitted mistakes were made: not having a working prototype from the factory before beginning the KS campaign, and not sharing the bad news from the factory with pledgers immediately upon canceling the campaign.

Karis went on to share the he and PI were pursuing other avenues to produce the line at the 60mm scale and plans to expand the line into several larger sizes as well as produce a comic and play sets.

When all is said and done, I think the most important things are that Karis and PI did not take anyone's pledged money as they couldn't guarantee a line of 60mm figures, and that they still plan to bring the ROTB line to fruition.

[ironmask]

Well said. And with all of this, we should all agree that Jon didn't piss down anybody's legs, and all of the belly-aching should cease.

[NamaNiku]

While we wait, how about a ROTB mini comic?