71 replies to this topic

[TMAN]

6 away for me. Would be been 4 if I hadn't been picked up those 2 dyed figures

That’s very impressive !!

[fuzzbuster]

Hi. When I came across this post I felt compelled to contribute. I am a long time lurker but a first time poster. I am not a Muscle collector but I collect other mono minis. I acquired the figure in the attached pictures in a bag full of robots and other little figures last year from my local thrift shop in Toronto. I was disappointed when I opened the bag to find the previous owner had mutilated several of the figures - you can see the headdress of this figure sliced off at the back. The horror!

Let me know what you think. It looks like a red 131 to me but I’m no expert. I’ve included a picture of some other random Muscles for colour comparison. Thanks for your time.

 

That does appear to be legit from your pics. Just being able to see the figure from multiple angles in full size pics makes a big difference, as opposed to a single thumbnail.

 

Finding it in Canada would make sense, and even though damage is generally a tragedy, in this case it appears to show that the figure is the same color beneath the surface.

 

If you have another red M.U.S.C.L.E. to compare it with it would help to show that it is indeed the proper hue. If not, I am sure one of us would be happy to send you a red M.U.S.C.L.E. to take some side-by-side pics. If you decide to sell it, such comparison pics would be helpful. Even the damage on this figure would likely not affect it's final sale price, since it is apparently a very rare color for this sculpt.

[BaltanII]

Maybe some of the jaded nature of others on this board over the years is rubbing off on me, but feels awfully convenient that as this topic comes up, suddenly not only a new red 131 appears, it also happens to be damaged to indicate it's not a dye or anything... though the most surefire way to distinguish a dyed figure is damaging it somewhere new.

[BadLarry]

That was my first thought as well. More MUSCLE related drama. Speaking of which, looks like some brigading of LRG going on?

 

 

Thank you

[fuzzbuster]

Anything can possibly be too good to be true, but a dye job could be easily proven or disproven once in hand. The figure is already damaged as it is, so a tiny core sample would hardly depreciate any value.
It's also worth mentioning that PayPal always sides with the buyer, granting that the transaction was done under their Goods and Services category.

I can understand skepticism at just about any level, but personally I think terms like "drama" and "shenanigans" tend to be used more loosely than their actual definitions would allow.
Being suspicious is hardly dramatic.

And I honestly am not sure what "brigading of LRG" means.

[Bones]

I've purchased purple, salmon, and red fakes. All without real comparison at the time. It seems very convenient, the timing of this figure showing up now. Right after talking about it.
I mean, Tarm did a huge write up about the likely possibility that this figure was never produced not long ago. Why wouldn't this fig pop up then?

Also coincidently someone I've never heard of or met just spammed my reputation with 7 or so negative comments saying I'm a scammer and a cheat. My belief is that they intend for the owner of the said red 131 to see this and not want to sell to me seeing as how it's one of six figures that I need to complete a master set. That they are also a master set chaser and are just being juvenile.

To prove the red 131 is legitimate outside, trustworthy people, would need to compare the figure with other reds. In hand, not through photos. For look, feel, smell, etc.

There is also the chance that maybe certain nefarious people would float out fake reds to prove that their claim of having a complete master set is real or that a master set isn't possible without this figure.

[fuzzbuster]

Tarm did a huge write up about the likely possibility that this figure was never produced not long ago. Why wouldn't this fig pop up then?
 

Where was this write-up posted? This thread is the first discussion I have seen about this particular set of figures in recent times.

[cloning007]

Hey everyone, Brian DeMars has spent a lot of time and research on this great write up. Please give your feedback. And thank him for this Awesome information!
Hello! My name is Brian DeMars, but some of you may know me as Tarmogoyf from the LRG forums a few years back. I’ve collected M.U.S.C.L.E. figures since I was about 3 years back in 1986 and became more interested in refining my collection and understanding the rarity of figures about 10 years ago.
Today, I’d like to lay out my theory for why three elusive and mysterious Class A figures that “should exist” (040DB, 131R, and 135R) were likely never made and do not, in fact, exist.
The good news, for nearly every Class A Master Set collector on the planet, is that if this is true, we can all cross three of three extremely Rare figures off our lists!
The first and second pieces of evidence I will present are observations. I have seen every other M.U.S.C.L.E. Class A figure multiple times, but have never seen one of these three. The second piece of evidence is that no collector I believe is credible and trustworthy has seen them either.
If I were to extrapolate the sheer number of figures gazed upon by myself and other die-hard collectors over a decade of searching that’s hundreds of thousands of figures. That is just an observation, let’s get to my theory and supporting evidence that extends beyond simply “seeing is believing.”
M.U.S.C.L.E. & KINNIKUMAN
As many other collectors will attest, M.U.S.C.L.E. is the gateway drug to collecting Kinnikuman Kinkeshi and as I learned more about the various Kinnikuman figures it also helped me better understand M.U.S.C.L.E. collecting.
Soupie’s M.U.S.C.L.E. Parts / Tree page is an invaluable resource for any serious collector to reference because it shows which figures “go together” in terms of production to better understand their relative rarity.
http://soupie.little.../MUSCLECIA.html
M.U.S.C.L.E. is Mattel’s North American rebrand of the Japanese Kinnikuman toyline. The reason M.U.S.C.L.E. has so many unique sculpts hinges on the fact that Kinnikuman had been around for a long time in Japan beforehand.
North American kids encountered the line with 236 unique poster figures right off the bat, but that wasn’t how it went down the first time around in Japan. The Kinnikuman figures were released typically 12 figures at a time in “Parts” or “Series.”
Part (series) 1: had 12 figures and was released.
Part (series 2): added 12 new figures.
And, so on and so forth, as we’d expect to see a toyline introduce new figures or characters ten or so at a time. The massive number of sculpts included in the M.U.S.C.L.E. line feature figures from the first 21 Parts / Series of Kinnikuman.
I’ll be looking at Part #13 (which includes the Kenda Man figure 040 that ‘should’ exist in Dark Blue, but does not) and then applying the same line of thinking to Part #11 which features the non-existent 131R and 135R figures.
PART #13
Part #13 was the 13th release of new Kinnikuman figures and featured 12 new, unique sculpts. 11 of those figures would later become M.U.S.C.L.E. poster figures (014, 015, 016, 029, 030, 034, 056, 058, 096, & 111). Series #13 also features 1 non-poster sculpt, the kneeling Geranimo figure.
These figures are divided into two M.U.S.C.L.E. “TREES” and we know this because the figures come in different sets of colors.
PART #13, Tree #1 features figures: 014, 030, 034, 058, 096, and 111. These figures feature no rare Class A and all of the figures come in the following colors: Salmon, Purple, Dark Blue, Light Blue, Magenta, and Orange (all colors EXCEPT Red and Green).
Part #13, Tree #2 features figures 015, 016, 029, 040, 056 and all of these figures come in Purple (Class A), Salmon, Magenta, Red, Green (all colors EXCEPT Light Blue and Orange).
With the mysterious exception that 040 was not made in Dark Blue (at least that is my theory). I’ve been peddling my “Dark Blue Kenda man is a hoax” theory to anybody who would listen to me, but I think I’ve finally got some solid groundwork laid to start to explain why that is likely the case thanks to some interesting conversations I’ve had with fellow collectors Brian Bonano and Nick McMakin over the past week.
The first thing that has always stood out to me, and to every collector who has ever investigated the Parts and Trees of M.U.S.C.L.E. is that Dark Blue 040 SHOULD be a common figure and yet it’s non-existent. The other four figures on that Tree (Arch Sunshine, Neptune Man with his fist in the air, Budo the Big, and Terry Man) are all common in Dark Blue.
The first part of the theory involves “how were MUSCLES actually made?”
I haven’t been able to track down this information in my quest to learn exactly what the Tree-Based Kinnikuman look like or how many figures are made by each MOLD. However, it makes a ton of logical sense from a manufacturing standpoint that Mattel would have done one of the following: licensed the right to use the actual Kinnikuman Molds or created identical replicas. My assumption is supported by the fact that aside from three exceptions (040DB, 131R, and 135R) there is a perfect correlation between Parts, Trees, and color combinations of M.U.S.C.L.E.
The second insight came from my father who spent several years as a CFO of manufacturing for a company that produced injection molded plastics. He told me it was much more likely that figures were produced many at a time, as opposed to few at a time, when I asked him for insight about how M.U.S.C.L.E. figures would most likely have been produced.
I believe he said something along the lines of: “If an engineer would have suggested making thousands of tiny, cheap figures six-at-a-time using multi-million dollar injection mold machine, I would immediately fire that person.”
The key piece of information is that a Mold for a TREE doesn’t make six unique figures one time, but more likely makes the same six figures a multiple number of times. The exact number as far as I know is unknown, but also arbitrary. All I really know for sure is that M.U.S.C.L.E. figures were manufactured in Japan because it’s written on the packages.
You have likely noticed various nubs or tufts on various places on your figures. These are often on the top of the head. When the plastic material is injected into the molds, these tufts show us where the chamber that molds each figure is connected by a small channel to the main sprue. If the small channel is blocked, no material will flow into the chamber to create the figure.
In the case of the MOLD for PART #13 TREE #2: if you don’t want to make any kneeling Geranimo figures because it’s not on the poster all one would need to do is simply block the channels leading to the chambers that form that figure. Rather than build incredibly expensive new molds, simply block the figures you don’t wish to produce as part of the line, such as Kneely-G.
Since PART #13 TREE #2 is incredibly common and yet one specific figure (Kenda Man) doesn’t exist, I think it’s clear the channels leading to the chambers were likely blocked and I have a simple theory as well as a slightly more complicated theory and either one could actually be correct, but both “make sense.”
The simple reason is that it was an honest mistake! For one reason or another whoever was in charge of setting the dyes for that MOLD when it was making Dark Blue figures plugged the Kenda Man and Kneeling Geranimo channels thinking those were both non-MUSCLE sculpts and thus none of those figures were manufactured.
I’ve theorycrafted various reasons for the anomaly that is 040DB with Nick and Brian for years. Maybe it didn’t form right in that color. Maybe it didn’t test well in that color with kids. Maybe there was a quality control issue. While these “might” be true, these theories always felt flimsy to me and honestly “Oops! Plugged a figure I shouldn’t have!” seems more likely to me as a plausible explanation.
However, I think there’s also an extremely interesting coincidental overlap between 040DB and 131R and 135R that I was able to surmise after Nick and Brian shared their feelings that the Red Figures were also likely not produced. I’d always assumed they did exist because it makes sense that they SHOULD exist based on what we know about Parts, Trees, and Color figures.
My theory for why we hadn’t seen them show up over time was: “I’ve only seen each of these figures a handful of times total in over ten years, it’s not statistically significant that there are a few I haven’t seen yet.” In my three year absence from the hobby, these guys have kept their nose to the grindstone watching eBay and talking with other collectors. More of the other Red figures have continued to surface with nary a 131R or 135R.
I also learned that the archive photos of 040DB, 131R, and 135R that we’ve all seen came from known-counterfeiter and peddler of dyed figures, Alex Forbes. The guy is an absolute cancer in the collecting community and when I learned he was the source of these photos I quickly became skeptical of their authenticity.
I’ve always thought the archive photo of 135R looked a little bit funky, but not out of the realm of poor camera and lighting. It’s astounding to me that a “University” of M.U.S.C.L.E. information would never question information from such a discreditable source for over a decade as a fact.
After that extremely significant piece of information was finally brought to light, I was much more willing to consider the possibility that there could be some connection between the mysterious 040DB and 131R and 135R and I found one.
The two Red figures I now believe “DO NOT EXIST” both come from the Kinnikuman Part #11 series which features eleven M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts: 068, 104, 125, 131, 133, 134, 135, 136, 139, 140 (as well as two non-muscle sculpts which likely had their chambers blocked during production.
Soupie’s Chart speculates that Part #11 has one Tree with 13 unique figures (11 MUSCLE, and 2 NON MUSCLE). Based on the observation that most Parts have to Trees (MOLDS) I’m also willing to consider that Part #11 has two TREES that were coincidently made in the same combination of colors.
Here’s how I framed the question: There are three figures that SHOULD exist but DON’T. What do they have in common and is there any overlap?
The answer is YES.
Regardless of whether Part #11 is one or two Trees, there is an interesting coincidence that connects these figures: these 3 TREES feature the six bulkiest figures in the M.U.S.C.L.E. line (015 Arch Sunshine, 056 Budo the Big, 064 Octopasu Dragon, 134 Footballer, 136 Buka, and 139 Buka).
It’s an unbelievable coincidence that these three figures that “should” exist according to Tree Logic, but don’t seem to exist, all appear on the same tree as the six bulkiest figures. Another interesting tie-in is we have another example of a particularly bulky figure with variable production: SATAN CROSS.
If Part #13 is two Trees, it’s also worth noting that each Tree could have two big figures, one unmade non-muscle sculpt, and 131R and 135R are approximately the same size, mass, and shape.
Why would this matter? In theory, if there is a finite amount of dyned material to make figures and you want to make as many complete batches as possible with as little leftover waste material as possible, it’s possible to calculate the volume of an individual figure and multiply it by the number of times the figure appears on the MOLD.
MOLDS must be completely filled. If they are only partially filled the plastic material won’t completely fill the chambers and will produce figures without hands and feet. It’s possible the correlation between figures that should but don’t exist and figures that are between 1.25x - 1.5x the volume of an average figure and how that relates to the volume of material needed to run the MOLD.
My brother also pointed out that having figures of different sizes on the same MOLD could potentially cause quality problems during manufacturing. The obvious counter argument to this is “It worked fine in all the other colors, so why wouldn’t it work in these specific colors?”
It’s also possible Part 11 in Red was also an “OOPS” where figures that should have been made were mistakenly blocked or plugged during manufacturing.
Clearly, there are still unknown pieces of information regarding how M.U.S.C.L.E. was produced, that if we knew, would form a clearer picture for why these three figures are such an anomaly and remain so elusive. With that being said, I feel like there is enough information available that I believe there is a significantly greater chance these three figures are more likely a hoax than legitimate figures.
Obviously, these are my opinions and you’re welcome to disagree with or challenge them. With that said, I do think there’s mounting evidence that supports the likelihood these figures are fakes, which I think is worth discussing and being made aware of since a legitimate copy of any of these three figures would likely sell for over $1000.00.
I know there are a lot of new collectors to the Hobby lately who are looking for Rare items and I would hate to see anybody taken advantage of. Getting ripped off by Alex with fake dyed-figures is a M.U.S.C.L.E. rite of passage in the community, but I’d just assume you learn from our mistakes and avoid that pitfall. If it seems too good to be true, it often is!
M.U.S.C.L.E. has always been a niche hobby that requires a ton of niche information that isn’t easily accessible to newer collectors to help them make informed purchases. Useful information is often guarded by small communities of collectors in order to gain a competitive advantage in the marketplace on buying Rare items. I also believe some collectors spread outright misinformation about their collections and the values of various items.
Case in point, it’s taken me years of looking for and gathering information via legitimate and trustworthy sources to even attempt to debunk what I believe to be fraudulent claims made by an illegitimate collector over a decade ago.
I’d love to find a legitimate version of one of these figures in the wild, and if I do, I would make that information public and share it with the M.U.S.C.L.E. community. At the same time, I’d love to see a Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot in the wild (and I’m not talking about MIMP), but I’m not going to hold my breath on that ever happening!

[fuzzbuster]

If the gist of your article is questioning the existence of figures that have only been poorly documented by a proven liar, I find it hard to believe that too many here would disagree with you.

It seems the general consensus is that alex most likely lied about having those figures and the reason they have not been documented beyond his initial lo-res pics is because no one has them.

[cougarmind]

Sorry but it was seriously not my intention to start any drama. Just wanted to share. I understand your skepticism and want you to know that I’m just a collector. I compulsively go to thrift shops and flip bags of toys to find treasure. I’ve never sold anything and I’ve traded a few times (once through gpkunderground). My wife and kids think I’m a toy hoarder but I see it as amassing treasure. I love discovering and researching toy lines. I thank everyone at littlerubberguys for being such a great educational resource over the years.

I can assure you that I did not dye this figure. The reason I’m sharing it now is only because the topic came up. I’d seen the figure mentioned in threads over the years but never so directly as this post started by greyeagle06 - I figured it was time to share. I’ve included a picture of the figure in the bag from the thrift store - I don’t usually photograph the bags I buy but I bought this one the night before I was going out of town for work and wanted photos of my new figures to do a little research in my hotel room after I was done for the day. As well, as suggested above, I photographed it with my only other red Muscle. And I’ve also included a picture of my favourite shelf just to show you the passion and enthusiasm I have for toys.

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[fuzzbuster]

I shall throw this out there: If you would like to have the figure authenticated, Jkaris or I would be happy to do so. We are both well-versed in this toy line, and neither of us are master set chasers. We would have nothing to gain from lying or stealing your figure. 

 

You could send the figure to either one of us, where it's legitimacy can be confirmed and documented for the community, then return the figure to you immediately.

 

Of course this would take a leap of faith on your part. I understand that blindly sending a piece of your collection to someone you do not know can be unappealing.

But on the other hand, potentially proving this figure exists would be a major event for M.U.S.C.L.E. zealots.

 

 

Another option I suppose would be to try and organize an international toy summit; Niagara Falls is only a 6-7 hour drive from me, and the wife has been saying we should go visit for years now! 

[BadLarry]

And I honestly am not sure what "brigading of LRG" means.

 

Someone anonymously bombed your feedback with a bunch of anti-LRG stuff. That appears to have happened within a few hours of someone coming forward with the only known non-Forbes example of this figure. A figure that many of the master-set collectors just declared to not exist.

 

Thank you

 

Edited to add: Bones mentions above that he was also hit with some fake negative feedback. I don't see it, so I guess it's been removed. As of this post, so have most of yours.

Edited by BadLarry, 31 August 2020 - 07:02 AM.

[fuzzbuster]

Ah, yes. That spam member account has been deleted, and not for the first time this year.

[jkaris]

Thanks for the pics cougarmind. I'd suggest taking a good picture outside in sunlight. It's easy to tell if it is dyed in good natural light or not. Hopefully they are legit and got scored yourself an excellent rare figure!

[cougarmind]

Thanks for the suggestion, Jkaris - I’ve added some new pictures. And thanks Fuzzbuster - if I do decide to sell it I would like to have it authenticated so I appreciate the offer.

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[jkaris]

I'd say that is definitely legit and not a dye-job.

[greyeagle06]

Ah, yes. That spam member account has been deleted, and not for the first time this year.

I was also given spammed feedback, but it has been deleted also.

 

 

Maybe some of the jaded nature of others on this board over the years is rubbing off on me, but feels awfully convenient that as this topic comes up, suddenly not only a new red 131 appears, it also happens to be damaged to indicate it's not a dye or anything... though the most surefire way to distinguish a dyed figure is damaging it somewhere new.

I don't know how to prove this, and I'm not sure if you are implying that I planned this, but I did not plan this whatsoever, and I was just curious about this topic because I did not know for sure.

[BaltanII]

Ahh, I didn’t mean to throw you under the bus like that, heh, it’s just that things have been bad enough in these parts before that basically that exact scenario has popped up in other instances. I’ve been here for ages and so eventually that level of skepticism rubbed off on me!

I am also not in the market for this figure actively, despite the signature, since I was unaware of red 131’s rarity years ago when I first asked for one, so ultimately the figure’s legitimacy is more a curiosity than anything else.

[greyeagle06]

Ahh, I didn’t mean to throw you under the bus like that, heh, it’s just that things have been bad enough in these parts before that basically that exact scenario has popped up in other instances. I’ve been here for ages and so eventually that level of skepticism rubbed off on me!

I am also not in the market for this figure actively, despite the signature, since I was unaware of red 131’s rarity years ago when I first asked for one, so ultimately the figure’s legitimacy is more a curiosity than anything else.

That's ok, no hard feelings!

[Bones]

Out of curiosity, who does own a red 139?

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[greyeagle06]

What if there were like a class S for figures like red #131 that are so rare, they have not even been proven legitimate? Just a thought...

Have a nice day!

Edited by greyeagle06, 25 September 2020 - 07:38 PM.

[Ericnilla]

What if there were like a class S for figures like red #131 that are so rare, they have not even been proven legitimate? Just a thought...

Have a nice day!

There have been some rare colors come up that go for crazy money and bring crazy drama. Haha