65 replies to this topic

[soran1985]

also, knuxman(right?) that's my favorite MUSCLE as well.

[Tortle]

If a figure goes up or down by market value, then that is okay. But if you paid $300 for a figure, then it’s value went down because of a bunch of fake figures then you would probably be a little bummed.

I'd think you'd be more than bummed... you'd be pissed out of your mind. But here's my take (as if it matters since this situation would never happen because nobody's willing to take the risk of sending Godbeast their super-rares so he can make molds)...

In my opinion, "cloning" of the super-rares wouldn't hurt the hobby, it would actually help it. More people would be able to expand their collections to include the super-rares. Most of us have absolutely NO hope of ever owning a super-rare. We simply can't shell out the dough, so a cloned figure would be great for us. The only people it might hurt would be the 3 or 4 people who actually own the super-rares because the value of their figures may decrease.

I say "might" and "may" because sometimes reproductions don't hurt the value of an toy. For example, there are a few Vlix repros floating around, and hell, Vlix is still worth thousands of dollars. And think of all those vinyl caped Jawa repros. They might make authentication a bit tricky, but they don't really hurt the value of the original. Then again, the price of loose vintage A-Wings DID decrease after the POTF2 version was released. So, I guess if you have enough people who are willing to shell out the big bucks for an original toy, the market value won't decrease.

Basically, I'm all for cloning the super-rares because I would never even try to buy an original. I can understand arguments against it, but I think the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

-Nathan

[soran1985]

tortle, you make a good point. i myself could never afford an authentic rare figure either. but i just want to make more figures for the fans to collect. that's all. i understand the ramifications this could have, but who wouldn't love to have a complete set of the characters from the kinnikuman manga without paying over $500? i know i would.

[soran1985]

i can probably find the stuff at reasonable prices. when i list a price, i always mean AROUND the written price. don't take it so literaly guys

[Adamantiumwulf]

If you want to reproduce them ok, but do it in a way that makes it easy to tell that it isn't authentic. Ie the color and the trademark.

It is kinda like satan cross. when he first started poping up everyone wanted him and auctions started getting more expensive just cause he was in it. Now he cominders a little bit more but no where near what he used to. He isn't as rare as everyone thought.

Everyone loves godbeasts repros. because the detail is awsome and the variety of colors are sweet.

[THEGODBEAST]

Thanks to all for their more than kind words about my work! This group has always been way cool and appreciative of my work! That is why I like it here!

As far as another "Godbeast," without sounding too kocky, ??? C'mon Soran, I appreciate your kind comments about me and my work, but, seriously, why on earth would you shell out $2,000+ on equipment, supplies, classes, etc... just to make figures. My evolution to what I do now took 10+ years and this was not even my predetermined destiny. I picked up all kinds of experience, knowledge, and talent along the way. I just applied it to something I have always wanted to do (sculpt toys and reproduce toys). My ultimate goal is to not clone other's toys, but, to do more of the original type stuff like the ScorpioSting and the 2 Godbeasts. I want to create some kitbashed and custom sculpt Muscles also, however, I am an artist first and then a toy collector. So eventually I will ultimately focus on something all my own. This is truly a stepping stone for that goal. I have mastered my techinques and materials in this area, all that is left is to apply all this to my own sculptures. I am not saying that will happen today, next week, next month, next year, next 5 years, etc... but, it will happen.

What sort of bothers me, is in one breath you say, "if anyone was interested in obtaining them, i'd sell 'em for about a quarter or so each just enough for the postage costs." (that is totally insultive to me and my work)and in the next breath you say, "according to my mom, my dad knows a guy that might be able to make the molds. hopefully we'd be able to strike a deal." (that sounds like your mom and dad saw my stuff and said, "hey we can do that and look at all the $$$ we can make!!!") and you say in another breath, "i myself could never afford an authentic rare figure either." (Huh???), and in another breath, "i just meant i knew it'd be expensive. i knew my methods wouldn't possibly be over $2,000. "(Huh???), and in yet another breath you say, "actually i expected it to be around $10,000 or so. i knew it was EXPENSIVE."(Huh???) So exactly what in the hell are you saying (I am trying real hard to be nice about all this, but, my patience is in short supply on this topic)?

Don't get me wrong, I am not worried, or sweating, (this was also said in the BB group by a dealer who thought he could get someone to make BB and sell them for .50 each, needless to say, that is not only impossible, however, it is IMPOSSIBLE and never happened.) your questions, statements, I am actually just amazed at your optimistic outlook on custom clones. I actually encourage you to look into reproducing muscles or any figure for that matter. Actually, by the time you have spent the money on the equipment, supplies, classes (not sure what classes you plan on taking), and of course the figures to make the molds of, I would love to see how cost effective an enjoyable all this is for you, not to mention the quality of your work. Now, I am not saying this to be an A$$, however, if you or anyone thinks I am rolling in $$$, I have to almost laugh. 50% or more of what I have produced has went to trades! Ask Johnny, I just completed a $550+ trade deal with him, not to mention another possible $400+ deal in the future. As far as cash, I have spent probably $500+ on supplies for just this new year, and I can honestly say that is a huge chunk of the money I have made, so as far as profit vs. labor, I am probably in the end spending money out of my pocket to make these for collectors and to benefit my own collection. But, in the end since my goal was to master these materials for my own art, I have accomplished the mastery part and eventually on to my own stuff! So for your reason to be, "i just want to make more figures for the fans to collect." and "if anyone was interested in obtaining them, i'd sell 'em for about a quarter or so each just enough for the postage costs.", then you my friend are a noble person with deep pockets! I think everyone should be excited that you are going to spend $2,000+ in order to sell everyone figures for .25 each! That is effing amazing! You will be loosing anywhere from $5-$15 per figure (total production costs). If you look at the big toy companies, they won't make a figure if they don't think they can sell 100's of 1,000's of figures, in order to make a good profit. So think of what one person doing all the work/labor (molds, casting, emailing, packing, shipping, etc...) and putting up all the overhead costs should make to make it even worth their time, so that collectors can have something unique and new!?! I think your .25 is pretty funny.
Ya know, I am rambling I think, I am tired, I am irritated, and I am sorry again to everyone for being like this. I know I have to sound arrogant and pissed off. I probably am. Sorry, I am done for now.
THEGODBEAST

[Kinnikux]

Alright my take on things... I also have made my molds and have the plastic sitting in my garage unopened just waiting to be poured. However I have not poured yet because that plastic in liquid form is pretty nasty stuff. You need the propper gear and place to make these toys which can cost an arm an leg. I personally am lucky because my uncle owns a shop with the propper ventilitation and equipment, its just a matter of me getting free time to drive a couple hours to the shop (which I can't seem to find). Just make sure you know what your doing when you mess around with this stuff. Also like Marty said, making your own mold is a form of art. After the mold is finished theres just something about it being hand made that gives you satisfaction. I mean seriously those molds take a lot of work and time to make, and to just hand a figure to a guy and say make this mold takes all the pride out of the art. Twenty five cents is nuts though, I mean if you can afford to basically give us all free muscles im up for it geeze, but when you complete the whole process you may think a little differently.

[ToyMan]

You had shelled out your money for a valuable figure only to have a bunch of fake figures take away that value. Remember I’m talking market value here, not personal value.

again, i understand that you have different motivations than i do.

it's just that when i buy a toy, i don't look at it like i'm "tying up my assets in investments".

so, no- i wouldn't feel bad if a toy i bought was devalued. i couldn't care less. (i think i already said that earlier in this thread, actually...) i actually have toys that were bootlegged, and i haven't even thought to check on the value.

when i buy a copy of toyfare, the first 70 pages get worn down, but the final 30 pages are practically untouched.



i dunno what else to tell ya'. i'm just not one among that school of thought.

[ironmask]

i see no problem in recreating hard to find figures, like SC, or SHA, or whatever... sculpts like that would be nice to have.
and while it would be cool for everybody to have one in m.u.s.c.l.e. plastic... that can't happen. and i understand the appeal to having something rare...
to recreate it literally would devalue the line... but to make them in colors m.u.s.c.l.e.s weren't released in, seems reasonable to me.
to hold an original up to a bootleg, shouldn't devalue the original... should it?

but to just try to bolster your collection by that means is stupid.

(btw, working with plastics isn't easy at all...)

[THEGODBEAST]

Ya Veers,
I saw that other thread too at about 3:00 am central time last night. He will take orders for figures to be produced in 2005. Holly Cow! Now I don't feel so funny taking orders for figures that I can have ready in 2 weeks tops (except for poor Doc J Moore, but, I made it up to him). Maybe I am a big jerk, however, I am totally starting to think that Soran1985 is a "clownshoe." Maybe I will have to eat those words, but, I doubt it. For anyone making all the comments he has, and then saying he will be taking orders for some other figures in 2005, is absolutely ridiculous! Not to mention, if he really didn't want to eff with me, he wouldn't have said anything until he had something to show for it. All his talk of .25 a figure, however, $2,000-$10,000 to make them is just garbage! I hate to be like this, however, I am beyond irritated!
THEGODBEAST

[jkaris]

Look guys, if the guy wants to spend whatever amount of money on trying to make pigures, that is his choice. And if he wants to sell the figures at .25 to $1 each, then that is also his prerogative. If you go back and re-read this thread, you folks are being obnoxious to this guy.

Granted, I'll wager that alot of "naivette" has to do with his decisions, but hey, I'm sure he thinks it'll be a blast making custom figures. A man can dream, can't he?

My point is, don't harass the guy because he has an idea of making custom figures. Let him be. He will discover on his own how difficult it is. And who knows, he may succeed in his dreams.

Be nice guys......

[phillymadison]

ya seriously I didn't want to say anything but now that the big "J" said something Im gonna seconded it

If someone came on Akia and said They want to be a wrestler (this is the only thing I can compare this with) and that they will be in the WWE in about a year but haven't even started training. I wish them luck tell them it will be tough and drop it.

For the first time since I've been on Akia I have been a little disapointed

when it was harassing guys like checkmaterulz and deadtroll they deserved it

This is a new memeber with a dream of making his own toys thats all

This isn't the Akia family I know (well except for veers but thats just veers lol)

Im sorry for being off topic and Im sorry about this post in general

[THEGODBEAST]

Sorry Johnny and Phil,
But I am going to have to respectfully disagree with both of you on this topic! I really don't think that I am, "being obnoxious to this guy" at all! I am seriously pissed off! To be a total new guy, throwing out prices out of both ends, asking for advice, and then saying that figures won't be ready till 2005 is not only insultive, it is irresponsible! So what if he is new, I do realize Johnny that the more users the better, however, I think as far as the realm of reproducing figures there should be a little responsibility. Someone should not come in here and start talking sh*t about this and that off the top of his uneducated head, getting good collectors all worked up about prices and whether or not just anyone can do this, and on and on and on. I think Veers is not just trying to rail this guy, but, rather Veers is being intelligent and pointing out that this guy isn't dreaming, he is thinking out loud and saying things that aren't even close to accurate or even in reality for him. If he wants to persue this whole clonning thing then he should and until he has something in the here and now or at least an intelligent knowledge of the area, then I personally think that he should keep it to him self until then. I didn't come in here and spout my mouth off unintelligently, saying this and that without first knowing what it took to do what I planned on doing with the materials I had already mastered. I think some of you truly know what I am talking about after you have seen my figures first hand (Veers knows this obviously without even owning one of my figures) and so many of you probably realize where I am coming from with all this crap that soran1985 is spouting. If I am reacting in a bad way, then how come I didn't act this way with Andrew? Maybe because Andrew came off as a sincere and intelligent person! Andrew sent several pm's and emails to me prior to me giving him advice. I was reluctant at first, until I realized his purpose and level of knowledge. Also, Andrew didn't just start posting crap that made no sense! So sorry Johnny and Phil I think you are both way off on this one and you are both going out on a limb for the wrong reason (just because he is new and you are trying to be extra nice). He is wrong and irresponsible, period. That is my opinion. I am also slightly offended that the 2 of you cannot see all of this for what it is ....irresponsible.....try to understand Veers and my stance.
THEGODBEAST

[THEGODBEAST]

Also, as far as the BHS, SHA, and DM, I am not against making them, infact I have talked to 2 people about possibly borrowing or getting a Japanese BHS to reproduce. I do think that if I were to make them in exact flesh Muscle plastic, that would be irresponsible on my part. Not that I have not thought about doing that or discussed it with people like Alex (on the phone). It was a thought, however, how would that be fair for people like Alex? It wouldn't. I respect Alex's opinion, I also respect the amount of $$$ he spent on that BHS too much to even try to make some exact clones of BHS, SHA, or DM. I do think it would be cool and total fine to make unique colors of these 3 rares and it would never even come close to damaging the value of the rares, never! Then everyone could have one! My SC clones have not hurt the value of SC at all and it never will. Now if I had made them in flesh and left the hole in the back, it might have.


Let's get back on track with this topic, it is not really about making clones of the 3 rares, it is about soran wanting to know what exact type of plastic muscles are made out of and that he wants to start clonning figures with toxic plastic, super expensive equipment, and then he wants to sell them for .25 each to everyone!

THEGODBEAST

[jkaris]

Let me start with this:

I am not "being extra nice to the new guy" although I do that alot.

My point is, what is the big issue with him wanting to
"know what exact type of plastic muscles are made out of and that he wants to start clonning figures with toxic plastic, super expensive equipment, and then he wants to sell them for .25 each to everyone!"
?

I don't see it. Now if he were asking folks for cash up front, for figures that won't be available until 2005, then I would post something to the effect of warning the board members not to be dumb and give away their money to someone who has nothing to show for it.

But he's not. He's just some guy who want's to start making MUSCLE figures and came to a MUSCLE board to ask some advice. And he gets lambasted, or at best, ill-received, for reason which for the life of me I can't figure out.

And what of it? Who cares if he wants to make figures? Who cares if he wants to pay $10,000 for the equipment, and then try to recoup his costs at .25 each? Is it not his money? It is.

So I fail to see the reason behind the criticism. If the plastic is toxic and he dies, well then, that's his fault, isn't it. How does that bother any of you?

If I were on the outside looking in, I would think that Veers was just being an arse for arguments sake, and that may possibly be it. Veers calls people on many things that most overlook. That is why I chose him to moderate the sandbox, which is generally the hardest forum of any message board to direct.

And I would think that you were afraid of possible competition. But I know you on a somewhat personal level, and I am assured that you are not petty like that.

So I am perplexed. Why all the uproar about him wanting to make bootlegs? I don't get it.

From everything I read, he is some guy who wants to make repro MUSCLEs.

I could understand the argument, if he were trying to make exact replicas of some of the Super Rares or even Satan Cross, but I didn't read that in any of his posts. Just that he would like to make some of the Japanese figures that were never released over here. If for nothing more than a lark, or if it goes good, then sell them for whatever price he can get for them.

Again my question is this? Who cares? What harm is he doing?

I fail to see the harm.

[smackman]

Also, as far as the BHS, SHA, and DM, I am not against making them, infact I have talked to 2 people about possibly borrowing or getting a Japanese BHS to reproduce. I do think that if I were to make them in exact flesh Muscle plastic, that would be irresponsible on my part. Not that I have not thought about doing that or discussed it with people like Alex (on the phone). It was a thought, however, how would that be fair for people like Alex? It wouldn't. I respect Alex's opinion, I also respect the amount of $$$ he spent on that BHS too much to even try to make some exact clones of BHS, SHA, or DM. I do think it would be cool and total fine to make unique colors of these 3 rares and it would never even come close to damaging the value of the rares, never! Then everyone could have one! My SC clones have not hurt the value of SC at all and it never will. Now if I had made them in flesh and left the hole in the back, it might have.

I would definitely buy a BHS DM or SHA in different colors. I think its a great idea to make them, then, like you said, everyone could have one. I don't think the value of the super rares would go down. It would be super cool to have these in my collection.

Btw I agree with ya godbeast. I don't wanna be an arse, but I wouldn't take this too seriously until he makes them. If he's really serious, then we will just have to wait. I wouldn't worry though man. I have one of your customs and they are WICKED BAD!! I can't wait to get the others you sent me. Nothing compares to them.

[THEGODBEAST]

Phil,
Ya know, I wasn't going to post this, however, I re-read your last post and you are right, "This isn't the Akia family I know."

I might have been wrong about the AKIA site. It seems to me like the same sh*t is starting here that was going on in the BB yahoo site. It all started just like this, with one uninformed individual claimming this and that, then everyone split into fractions. The ones who knew what the hell they were talking about, collected customs, understood their value and the hard work/money invested into them and voiced their opinions in support of me. Then there were the ones that thought the same thing, but, kept their support of me under wraps (due to deals going on with the others in disagreement with me) and didn't not stand up for what they thought. Then there were the 3 and yes I can count them as 3 that were dealers and jealous SOB's that wanted to bee-eye-itch and moan, make up crap about others that could make the same stuff I did for .50 each, and crap upon crap, upon crap. There was also the 2-3 that up an quit the group just due to the arguing! I ended up leaving that group due to the BS and to be honest the people that wanted my stuff contacted me through my email, my web site, the phone, and ebay. So I learned real fast just to leave the group alone due to all the BS. I am starting to feel that here for the first time. I am totally wondering if maybe I should re-think my whole purpose for joinning these groups, posting my opinions, and everything. It really is too much negativity and energy to try to explain my views after all the hard hours upon hours of work and all the money I am pumping into this custom stuff. I have pondered this before, "Maybe just doing the Ebay thing and letting those who want to contact me and leave it at that." I don't expect everyone to understand my view, especially if they don't own a figure of mine, know the true work involved, or the true money I pump into my work. I do however, think that some individuals should understand my opinions and views of my work almost totally. Maybe, I shouldn't.

Johnny when you say, "And I would think that you were afraid of possible competition. But I know you on a somewhat personal level, and I am assured that you are not petty like that." You are 100% right. My work speaks for itself. Period. I am not worried about competetion, if I was, how do you explain Andrew and I? You can't, because I do not fear competetion. I respect my own work and the work of others. Soran1985 has shown no work, no knowledge, no anything! I can see you are totally missing my shear anger towards this BS topic, so I think I will quit now and leave all this for what it is. My opinion and other's opinions. I have also posted some more thoughts on this in this topic:

http://www.littlerub...7e19f8e956733af

THEGODBEASTe+

[phillymadison]

hmmmm...

everyone is making really valid points here

I can see how Marty's craft is being insulted by a new member and how that is pretty upsetting especially with all the time and effort Marty puts into his work

But what Johnny's saying makes sence to me and is how I go about people that upset me

A calm I dont care attitude is the best weapon when dealing with ignorance

If anyone dwells on things that upsets them it makes ya old before your time and is no way to live life

thats just my take overall there is no real easy answer to this ya just have to put yourself in the other guys shoes so to speak

I mean I'm pretty much on the outside looking in here Im not making my own figures nore am I gonna try I honestly dont see the problem with another guy trying to aspire to be "GODBEAST 2 " Personally I dont think it can be done so why worry and or get upset

I'm not by any means trying to start any trouble please dont take anything I say the wrong way

[pasvagrsvj]

Let's no do anything rash here, gentlemen! I think that this whole thing is out of proportion. 2005 will soon come and go; and this arguement will prove to be a moot point. My gut tells me that these "clones" will never see the light of day. Let's not ruin a good thing over, what I believe to be, idle chat coming from, what I hope to be, a child.

[THEGODBEAST]

Don't worry Phil, I have not taken your opinions the wrong way. At least you do see where I am coming from and that I am not totally crazy in going off.

You are 100% right in that, "If anyone dwells on things that upsets them it makes ya old before your time and is no way to live life."

You and Johnny are intitled you your opinions and I respect them (I don't agree at all with them though). Since you do not own any of my figures and you have not spoken with me on the phone like Alex and Johnny, I don't expect you to fully understand my shear anger with this particular topic.

Johnny's opinion on the other hand, I cannot for the life of me understand his lack of empathy or understanding of my anger and my feeling insulted with this topic.

I still ask you Johnny, explain Andrew and my relationship? How can you not see the difference in Andrew's approach and total respect and soran1985's pure irresponsibility? C'mon, how do you think you would feel in my shoes? For real, not how you would have to act because you run this site! You would not feel insulted at .25 a figure crap while he was asking for advice?

THEGODBEASTe+

[jkaris]

Marty, I think you are needlessly worried, and stressing yourself out for no reason. I'll leave it at that.

And you are REALLY stretching things at correlating this debate with the crap that went on on the BB group a while back. I see no splits or factions, or anything like that. Just a healthy difference of opinions between a few friends.

[THEGODBEAST]

The problem is, I don't think he is a child. He has hinted to his age in other posts. So that brings me back to how irresponsible it was for him to post the crap he did when #1, there are kids in this group who to be honest might get a wild hair and think, " Dude I can do this." Then order some plastics which are toxic and you can readily find and buy easily. Then they dable with them unsafely. Which also points to the other topic where someone says, " how does this hurt anyone?" Or to the adult collectors thinking, " Holly crap! He can or will make figures and sell them for .25! Wow!" So if he is a child, then you are 100% right pasvagrsvj, he did refer to "mom and dad" like a child. But, I still think he is not a young child maybe 17-25 which I would say is a young adult and should have a little common sense, well maybe not, .....................
THEGODBEAST

[Ridureyu]

I understand why you'd feel insulted, but since we're obviously dealing with a kid here, wouldn't it be smart to try to instruct him casually before getting angry about it? Realize, he's inexperieced, and doesn't KNOW why this would be such an issue. Heck, it makes sense that your customs cost a lot- since you're not a major assembly-line corporation, it will cost you more, and there is great artisanship involved in this. All the same, though, little people like this guy aren't really the worst threats out there- now, someone in his mid-late twenties saying the same things WOULD be an issue. But you could figue that out quickly. Did any of this make any sense?