385 replies to this topic

[doc_moore_j]

They are all unpunched too.

I punched mine.

A few times hahaah.

I also folded the corners in and stepped on it to make it look more authentic and used.

[Kevin Mayle]

The one on the left is the one on the back page of MPS Newsletter #5 taken from an Ebay sale in 1998. That is the best quality I can provide for that. Darrin (MUSCLETOYS) had the original color photo for that. Maybe he still has it burned off on a cd somewhere.

[Kevin Mayle]

Here's another bit of info. Since the modern revival of MUSCLE collecting, I believe Brant Snell was the first to discover a loose Satan Cross in February 1998. This is a picture of it taken back then.

[Kevin Mayle]

Here's a question though. Where does that Buffaloman that comes with the wrestling ring come from if he was never a kinkeshi sculpt?

[jkaris]

Here's a question though. Where does that Buffaloman that comes with the wrestling ring come from if he was never a kinkeshi sculpt?

That I haven't been able to figure out yet. I am thinking that he was a special sculpt available in a set in Japan, like a ring or something. But that is only speculation.

I will say this, in my 3+ years of buying stuff off of Yahoo JP, I have never seen a Kinkeshi version.

[arforbes]

Here's a question though. Where does that Buffaloman that comes with the wrestling ring come from if he was never a kinkeshi sculpt?

That I haven't been able to figure out yet. I am thinking that he was a special sculpt available in a set in Japan, like a ring or something. But that is only speculation.

I will say this, in my 3+ years of buying stuff off of Yahoo JP, I have never seen a Kinkeshi version.

Possibly this figure does not exist as a Kinkeshi? It is conceivable that Mattel produced the figure just for the board game and wrestling ring. I think that if this is true, it is a very interesting aspect of the M.U.S.C.L.E. toyline.

Edited by arforbes, 16 November 2005 - 10:41 PM.

[Kevin Mayle]

And with the wrestling ring originally coming from the Japanese line, the need for a new sculpt to fit the prongs wouldn't be a factor. Obviously no one has seen this sculpt on Naochin's site. I wonder if Taka (Stingerwolf) has anything to say about this sculpt.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

The sculpt appears to be a U.S. release. The Kinnikuman although just a shrunken version of #141 isn't exactly a carbon copy itself. here's what I think happened. The Muscle plastic is stiffer than Kinkeshi, so the U.S. figs wouldn't exactly fit too well in the prongs. The result would usually be a broken prong. So to compliment the prong's size and original design for softer figures, they took a couple of easy sculpts and then had some smaller versions sculpted for the ring. They just took Terri's jacket off in the process. Sounds reasonbale to me. Of Course I think it would have been easier to just make the prongs adjustable or even rubber so that the figs could fit nice and snuggly without the problem of breakage. Just my view on the matter.

[Kevin Mayle]

If it's an American original sculpt then the would also have to have made a mold for it and a factory to produce casts of that single figure while all the rest came from Japan's factory. America didn't get the other molds because Japan still had them in 1991 when they did the reissues. Also Toyfare had an article years ago about the cost of making a mold. It was about a McFarlane toy that was accidentally the wrong size. Todd said that when they discovered the mistake it was after the mold had been made and so they had to go along and start casting them anyway because the cost of making a new mold (like $50,000) meant they could never recoup the cost from the figure. Godbeast's molds are inexpenive because they aren't designed to produce 10s of thousands of casts. They could have made a new sculpt and mold and then sent it to Japan to be produced but still, why spend the enormous cost on a single fig when they had 300 plus to choose from. Their are tons of figs that fit in those prongs.

[Soupie]

They could have made a new sculpt and mold and then sent it to Japan to be produced but still, why spend the enormous cost on a single fig when they had 300 plus to choose from. Their are tons of figs that fit in those prongs.

Great, just what we need: another Mattel MUSCLE mystery.



Well, if you don't think Mattel created an exclusive American sculpt, what is your alternative theory?

Hey, take it from me, theorizing is the best part of MUSCLE collecting!

[Kevin Mayle]

I haven't come up with a theory for them yet, but I do think we have the super rare theory backwards. They weren't part of a cancelled second wave. They didn't come out after the poster. They were part of the first (1985) wave. When the poster proposal on the 28 packs featuring many more characters came out. They weren't recalled, they just decided to stop production on SHA and BHS early on, before any lawsuit problems arose from the small parts. They just removed the back half of SC in the Japanese factories so they could fit in the American 4-pack packaging. Then by the end of the year they figured it wasn't worth the trouble to remove part of the figure so they decided not to continue him in the 2nd (1986) wave. When the actual poster came out that year, of course these three figures wouldn't be put on there. BHS and SHA were stopped early on, making them super rare, and SC lasting that first year makes him more readily available. The 3rd (1987) wave of colored figs and the 2nd (colored) poster of course would not include these long canceled figs either. This theory accounts for their differing rarity, their flesh only color, no recall, no cancelled wave of 3 figs that somehow slipped out and no reason for them to be on the poster. As for DM and DE, I personally don't feel these have been authenticated as MUSCLEs. I also don't think there are going to be any more non poster sculpts show up that are actually MUSCLEs. As for both wrestling ring figs that are not kinkeshi sculpts or on the poster, I haven't a clue.

[Soupie]

First off, let me say welcome to the wonderful world of theorizing! Now, to business!

They weren't recalled, they just decided to stop production on SHA and BHS early on, before any lawsuit problems arose from the small parts.

1) There really isn't any evidence for this besides their rarity.
2) There is actually evidence against this as there is no record of Mattel cancelling production-level toys.
3) Despite your opinion of DM and DE, their existence does challenge this theory -- as has been said before.

They just removed the back half of SC in the Japanese factories so they could fit in the American 4-pack packaging.

Why would they not just have removed BHS's chest insert if they were removing SC's back half?

If anything, they would have fixed the molds to simply not produce the SC back half and the BHS plug, rather than throw those pieces away after production.

Seems kind of drastic to just totally can the figure, especially since they didn't can Satan Cross.

When the poster proposal on the 28 packs featuring many more characters came out.

It's likely that the poster with all the many figures on it had absolutely nothing to do with the actual American MUSCLEs to be produced. (Note the American commercial that featured Kinkeshi.) I really don't think it offers any insight into why SHA, BHS, and SC (not to mention DM and DE) are not on the later, official MUSCLE poster.

As for DM and DE, I personally don't feel these have been authenticated as MUSCLEs.

I agree that DM and DE are not confirmed, but the fact that your theory doesn't have an answer for them is a flaw, I think.

Arforbes and Philly have shared very convincing, detailed pictures of both DM and DE. In my opinion, it is possible to tell the difference between a Kinkeshi and a MUSCLE via a picture.

That being said perhaps Arforbes would be willing to show us a comparison picture when he receives his recently won Kinkeshi DE in the mail.

and no reason for them to be on the poster.

Was the Flesh poster not available at the start of the MUSCLE release?

If it was available at the start, I see no reason why SC and the others would not be on it, even if they were cancelled (especially Satan Cross as he must have run for a while).

If the poster was available later, after they were cancelled, then their absence makes sense through the lens of this theory.

[Kevin Mayle]

1) There really isn't any evidence for this besides their rarity.

True. It's just a theory.

2) There is actually evidence against this as there is no record of Mattel cancelling production-level toys.

The toy wasn't canceled, just 2 out of 235 were stopped being produced. There is no record of the first wave of GI joe figures from 1982 being cancelled but production was stopped on them by 1983. And we have no surviving records from Mattel regarding MUSCLE at all.

3) Despite your opinion of DM and DE, their existence does challenge this theory -- as has been said before.

Well the reason why I don't feel compelled to have to include them is because, take all the MUSCLEs the members of this board have. Add that to all the lots we've seen on E-bay. What's that, 50,000 MUSCLEs? And there is only 1 of each of DM and DE. That's 5 times rare than the MUSCLE Hauler, which was only a prototype. And why do they just happened to be owned by:

User ID                        Bid Amount  Date of bid
yapiel ( 1 )                    $910.00        Jan-17-05 18:14:44 PST 
phillymadison ( 328)      $900.00        Jan-17-05 18:14:57 PST 

It just makes me a bit sceptical.

Why would they not just have removed BHS's chest insert if they were removing SC's back half?

They wouldn't have to remove BHS' attachment to fit him in the packaging. When they decided they didn't want the trouble with the small parts, it would be easy to just not include thoe figs in the line.

If anything, they would have fixed the molds to simply not produce the SC back half and the BHS plug, rather than throw those pieces away after production.

They probably didn't throw them away. SC back half was probably recycled. Then eventually they figured, why bother? It's not like anyones going to miss him considering we didn't know who any of the figs were anyways.

Seems kind of drastic to just totally can the figure, especially since they didn't can Satan Cross.

It's not to drastic to stop producing 1 fig. It' would be more drastinc to resculpt them to include them when there were plenty of other unused figs. And they did can SC. Just later on after BHS and SHA because it was for a different reason. It's conceivable with so many figures to start with they could have made adjustments to their thinking of which ones should be included during that first year of production.

It's likely that the poster with all the many figures on it had absolutely nothing to do with the actual American MUSCLEs to be produced. (Note the American commercial that featured Kinkeshi.) I really don't think it offers any insight into why SHA, BHS, and SC (not to mention DM and DE) are not on the later, official MUSCLE poster.

The proposal poster on the 28 packs and the commercial using kinkeshi were made during the early stages before thing were completely finalized. When the "actual" poster was produced in 86' the line was finalized.

Arforbes and Philly have shared very convincing, detailed pictures of both DM and DE. In my opinion, it is possible to tell the difference between a Kinkeshi and a MUSCLE via a picture.

If DM and DE are actual MUSCLEs they can also have their own reason for rarity. There can be as many different reasons as there are figures. There doesn't have to be one single reason that covers every oddity in an entire toyline.

First off, let me say welcome to the wonderful world of theorizing!

Thanks! This is fun.

[Soupie]

They weren't recalled, they just decided to stop production on SHA and BHS early on, before any lawsuit problems arose from the small parts.

The other thought about this theory is this: Would a company such as Mattel really make such a blunder?

Are we saying they okayed these two figures for production and then a month or so later said, "wait, they may be dangerous."

Seems unlikely to me. They would have known up front that they were dangerous and simply not made any.

[Kevin Mayle]

The other thought about this theory is this: Would a company such as Mattel really make such a blunder?

Are we saying they okayed these two figures for production and then a month or so later said, "wait, they may be dangerous."

Seems unlikely to me. They would have known up front that they were dangerous and simply not made any.

Remember the era MUSCLE was being made. SW toys were loaded with small parts, GI Joe too, so it’s unlikely that Mattel was worried about children choking on small parts. Especially on a toy line that was given a relatively small launch (e.g. no cartoon, no back story, etc.).

Talking about Star Wars and blunders: The initial batch of Star Wars figures only contained 12 figures. Sometime after they hit the market they stopped production on the cloth robed Jawa and started replacing it with a vinyl caped fig. Here is a change in a major toyline consisting of only 12 figures. Wouldn't it be conceivable to make a few minor adjustments to a toyline with 230 plus figs. And wasn't it Star Wars that advertised and developed the missle firing Boba Fett that was then altered before production to not fire the missle due to potential lawsuits? Why? My Transformers figures had firing missles. And wasn't it Star Wars that released a small blue Snaggletooth figure to the market before realizing he had to be completly resculpted and repainted and rereleased again, because they didn't have adequette reference material the first time? And wasn't it Star Wars that had to rerelease a new Han Solo with a newly sculpted head because the first one was way too small for his body? The point isn't why these figs were removed from the toyline, the point is that they were removed and it took place during the first year. Here is the evidence. Mattel released 3 pieces of proof that they were tinkering with the eventual choice of figures during the first year of production.
1) The commercial contained non MUSCLE kinkeshi sculpts, showing they hadn't finalized what figs they would use.
2) The pre-production poster art. Here it is on packaging of released MUSCLEs during production showing they weren't exactly sure how many of the figs they would eventually settle on by the time the poster went into production. I don't know the exact date the poster was released, but we can assume it was after the pre-production art for it.
3) Blocken Jr in the comic strip on the 28 packs. More evidence of the kinkeshi sculpts used as reference material for the MUSCLE line during production while the final line-up was yet to be finalized.
This does not constitute a major blunder. This is a company continuing to make decisions about their toyline after they hit the market.
Maybe when the first fiscal year was up, they had to make some financial cuts and maybe there was some kind of added expense using figs that consisted of two part and those were the ones to go. Whatever the reason, they were removed from the line. It just stands to reason that they would be removed during the initial run while they gathered data and finalized their toyline. That's why they weren't there when the poster came out. That's why they weren't there when the multicolored versions came out. If they have to make the commercial using kinkeshi, they were obviously trying to quickly get these to the market while they were still working on it. All toylines are tinkered with while they are being produced. This isn't a major blunder. It's just that companies don't do 100% of the work before anything is released and then just sit back and reap the fruits of their precognisence. If they could see in the future, why produce a toyline that didn't do to well. Why make a switch to multi-colors. Everything happens this way. Look at how Street Fighter II had arcade upgrades every 3 months in the 90's to fix unnoticed glitches and to stay a step ahead of the pirated boards. Look at how Return of the Jedi was advertised as "Revenge" of the Jedi to great expense. Then look at how he went back and made the special editions. Look at how movies are screened for test audiences and then expensive and time consuming scenes are cut from the film. It makes a lot more sense than a toyline to start with over 230 figs in it's first wave, then be followed by a second wave consisting of only 3 figs that all happen to have an attachment but be immediately stopped after a few hit the market and replaced with the first wave in multicolors, just so they can somehow slip in during the time period after the poster and before the multicolored.

[Soupie]

I do think we have the super rare theory backwards.

It makes a lot more sense than a toyline to start with over 230 figs in it's first wave, then be followed by a second wave consisting of only 3 figs that all happen to have an attachment but be immediately stopped after a few hit the market and replaced with the first wave in multicolors, just so they can somehow slip in during the time period after the poster and before the multicolored.

If DM and DE are actual MUSCLEs they can also have their own reason for rarity. There can be as many different reasons as there are figures. There doesn't have to be one single reason that covers every oddity in an entire toyline.

If you've read the entire second post in this thread, then you know that AKIA members have considered many different theories over the years (including the extra/small parts theory), and that "we" know the answer may be a mixture of all the theories listed in the second post.

Moreover, everyone has their own favorite theory and to say that "we" have the theory backwards doesn't make sense, as all we are really trying to do is consider the strengths and weaknesses of all of them. There is no official AKIA theory about the SRs.

Personally, I agree with you on the parts theory, as far as it making the most sense. All three most abundant rares have extra parts, thus that must be the reason they are rare.

However, there are issues with this theory, especially when applied to all the SRs, i.e. DE and DM.

I agree with your statement that different theories may fit different mysterious figures, that's why I added that concept as a theory several weeks ago.

Obviously, you are convinced SHA, BHS, and SC were eventually removed from the line because of their extra parts. That's cool. As I said, it is, in my opinion, a great theory. However, not everyone agrees that this is why they are so rare.

Now, as for DM and DE being suspect. I totally agree. As far as I know, no other AKIA member besides Philly has held DM and no other AKIA member besides Arforbes has held DE.

Could it be a hoax? Sure.

Would I like to have more proof of their authenticity than pictures? Sure.

[Kevin Mayle]

It's fun to try and figure these mysteries out. It would also be great if the history of this toyline were documented as well as some others, like Star Wars. It would also be great if someone that actually worked on the line would become a member of this forum. As cool as it was to imagine what these guys were back then, I think it is a shame we didn't get everything Japan got.

[arforbes]

That being said perhaps Arforbes would be willing to show us a comparison picture when he receives his recently won Kinkeshi DE in the mail.

Sure will...as soon as he arrives. Remind me, alright? I think you will be able to clearly see the difference between Kinkeshi and M.U.S.C.L.E. I just wish everyone could hold one to see for themselves.

Alex

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Could it be that Mattel was just cutting expenses. They pulled a couple of extra figs cause the sells may have been dwaining during the first release. Then as sells picked up they released some accessories (ring, battlin belt, etc.) which picked up some more cost. Then as it started to die again they took a leap of faith by introducing the colored figures to recoup the draining interest. Seems to me that they had already decided that the line wasn't worth the extra cost of adding new figures and striking new molds, so they pulled the rares to prevent slight confusion, since the poster was already released, and the chosen figures were finalized. Then they started clearing out their old flesh stock by mixing them with colored figs. Blah blah blah!!! (French Ascent) 20 years later. (/French Ascent) We are having a constant discussion about why the heck the Super rares were made!!!

Hmm. Sounds like a summary of Kevin's post.

Also! From the pics of Alex's DE, he seems more glossy like the muscles to me. Or he has yet again proved his great Photoshop skills!

I LIKE SKITTLES!!! YAAAY!!!

[Soupie]

Then as it started to die again they took a leap of faith by introducing the colored figures to recoup the draining interest.  Seems to me that they had already decided that the line wasn't worth the extra cost of adding new figures and striking new molds, so they pulled the rares to prevent slight confusion,

I'm not exactly sure how MUSCLE sales fluctuated, but I don't think it is how you theorized. I think they did surprisingly well right away, and then plummeted quickly.

As far as adding extra figures, remember that both ring figures are new, exclusive American sculpts. Thus, Mattel did have the ability to add offical new figures. (What that might mean in regards to the SRs, I don't know. Maybe that their rarity has nothing to do with trying to save money.)

Also, sometimes the release of the colored MUSCLEs is considered a spur of the moment decision, but considering the Kinkeshi had previously been released successfully in Japan in multiple colors make me think it was a potential plan of Mattel's all along.

The only difference is that perhaps if MUSCLE sales had stayed strong, Mattel would have tapped into more Kinkeshi parts, i.e. beyond part 21.

Another thing the extra/small parts theory doesn't consider is the interesting fact that BHS, SHA, and SC are all from the same part, as are DM and DE. (Not that a theory has to, but being in the same part may have something to do with their rarity.)

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, I guess that's what commercials are for, but were the commercials aired before, during, or after the initial release? I remember the commercials myself, but it wasn't till 88' that I bought my first Mixed ten pack from Wal-mart. It takes people 1: visiting a store and discovering the figures.
Or 2: Someone seeing the commercial and then wanting to buy them.
OR 3: One person seeing and buying the figures then telling everyone they know about them which causes tons of wittle kids to want to buy these things!

Personally I just don't think the line did Too well in the beginning or the end. I admit just about everybody had one of these things where I lived, but not every kid would buy 200 or more figures. Most of the auctions that pop up on eBay from peoples childhood collections only have 20-50 figs per bunch. I only had the one Ten pack I bought then numerous others that I had found, or bought at yardsales and fleamarkets. I had probably 30 before I got rid of them in the early 90's. Case in point it just takes the word spreading for something to gain success. I don't know myself. I'm just speculating of course. It could be that Satan cross was released with the first wave, then they slowly started adding figures such as Spinning Head Assuraman, then Black hole Sunshine, then DE and DM, but there was such a drop in sales that they made a quick decision to cut their losses, stop producing the new line, and start changing colors on us? I don't know how many factories were used to make them, but just to speculate. Couldn't one factory have been working on the initial 233 set, and then have received a couple other molds like the two ring molds and SC. Then they decided to start adding a new line, so they had a second factory start work on those figures, which included SHAM, BHS, DM, DE, but the sells started to plummet so before the new factory could get booming they told them to stop production, and just send in what they did make to the distributor? That would explain whey the rares are rare if it makes sense. They may have had the second factory start work on C.U.T.I.E.S. While the other factory started switching colors. I don't know. It's a mystery.

[Kevin Mayle]

Personally I just don't think the line did Too well in the beginning or the end. I admit just about everybody had one of these things where I lived, but not every kid would buy 200 or more figures. Most of the auctions that pop up on eBay from peoples childhood collections only have 20-50 figs per bunch.

Yeah me too. I only got about 60 and all my friends got as many or less in 1986. Then everyone just stopped. It was a new inexpensive cool thing to collect. We saw the commercial, then we got some at the store, then some bootlegs out of the gumball machine. We'd trade to get rid of duplicates and try to get different figs, but there were so many too buy on our small allowances that we kind of gave up. We had kind of moved on to Thundercats or something when the multicoloreds came out, but by then it just seemed like no way of catching up.
If they had come in smaller waves like in Japan it might have lasted longer. We were all getting Micronauts and didn't have any cartoons for it and we got Masters of the Universe years before the cartoon. Same with GI Joe, but I was getting the comic. There was just too many all at once. It seemed cool on the commercial, and today it would be ok because we make more money and can just sit back and order them off ebay to be mailed to us, but back then at $7 a week allowance and a 45 minute trip into town it just wasn't going to happen. And back then I only knew one kid that actually got a 28 pack. And he only got one. As far as major blunders go, that would be it for Mattel. Total overwhelming bombardment all at once.

[Soupie]

Personally I just don't think the line did Too well in the beginning or the end.

If you've read some of the excellent information on Veer's site (Rare MUSCLE Stuff) you know that MUSCLE was rated a top ten selling toy by Playthings Magazine in 1986 and by 1988 was no longer even featured in the Mattel catalog.

When it comes to MUSCLEs, there is plenty about which to speculate. This isn't one of them.

Here's some thoughts about the Ring Figures and the SRs.

After American MUSCLEs were released here in the US, new Kinkeshi parts were made and sold in Japan.

Perhaps Mattel convinced Bandai to just make the two ring figures as American MUSCLEs, and not release them as Kinkeshi. In other words, Bandai was still making new sculpts and molds. So producing two as only MUSCLEs is not out of the question -- it just doesn't make sense. Unless the two ring figures have no real connection to the manga and Bandai didn't want to make them as Kinkeshi.

Also, as I said, there were many more new Kinkeshi sculpts made after parts 1-21 of which MUSCLEs consist. If Mattel really wanted two new figures (beyond the official 233) why not just use two Japanese Kinkeshi from parts beyond 21? Are there no Terri-man and Kinnikuman molds?

Here's another thought: The Kinkeshi versions of BHS, SHA, and SC came with directions for using the extra parts with the figures. MUSCLEs did not come with directions. Could this have been a factor in not releasing muti-part MUSCLEs?

A slight tweak on the small parts theory might be that rather than having purposefully released BHS, SHA, and SC with the regular MUSCLEs and then realizing they would not work, Mattel received completed MUSCLEs from parts 1-21 from Bandai with BHS, SHA, and SC included and realized before they went on the market (and the creation of the poster) that they could not use BHS, SHA, and SC.

Thus, they requested that Bandai make no more BHS, SHA, and SC, but sold the stock of these molds that they did have. (This obviously doesn't explain why there are more SCs or where DM and DE came from.)

Though this isn't much different than what others have said (including KM) it is different in that it explains why they aren't on the poster.

If the decision to remove BHS, SHA, and SC from the line was made after MUSCLEs were released then those three figures should be on the poster.

The major flaw with this theory is that Mattel would most likely not have released the remaining stock.

I tend to think that the best explanation is that the SRs were mistakes. Figures in parts 1-21 that Bandai accidentally made into MUSCLEs and shipped over. Mattel packaged them and sold them until they (or Bandai) fixed the error.

The biggest flaw with this theory is SC. There seem to be just too many of him to be an error.