Attempting the impossible?
#51 Guest_General Veers_*
Posted 24 May 2010 - 04:24 AM
It makes it SO much easier for me.
#52
Posted 24 May 2010 - 05:02 AM
This is really going to be a cool project and I'm excited to see it develop!
#53 Guest_General Veers_*
Posted 24 May 2010 - 05:19 AM
Doc:
The 7th picture (second from the left, bottom row) those figures are cosmix/exogini, right?
And the rest of the figures, that are MUSCLE sculpts, are random bootlegs?
nanoFatato:
The first row (in the first picture) are figures inspired by MUSCLE or bootleg Kinnikuman?
And the bottom row are cosmix/exogini too?
And does anyone think that Blue guy in the 1st picture is even MUSCLE related?
walker13.1:
Does the #141 have his eyes filled in?
If so, what does that make him? It's not a true copy and it's not an amalgam.
The closest fit might be an "original" sculpt, but maybe it's a new category – the lazy edit?
And if it is a lazy edit, then until more surface it should probably be categorized under original sculpts, right?
And one final question, what's the best way to organize the Frankenstein figures? I'd like them all to be visible at a glance, so my first thought is that they are placed randomly, because there really isn't a way to organize them. Having said that, I think it might be useful to assign each figure a letter and that becomes their identifying "name." I wanted to avoid numbers to avoid confusion with MUSCLE figures. Then, as that grouping builds, it might makes sense to have some type of "index" that allows users to see all the figures connected to #208, #143, or whatever.
#54
Posted 24 May 2010 - 06:45 AM
1- yeah I think they could be bootleg kinkeshi, that yellow guy resembles me Black Hole though.
2- no, I collect exogini/cosmix and these are not their colors! (they are those from Doc instead)
3- upon closer inspection not at all, d'oh!
Edited by nanoFatato, 24 May 2010 - 06:46 AM.
#55
Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:25 AM
Ok, now that I'm sorting through pictures I need a little help. If anyone can answer these questions before the person I pose them too – that would be a huge help.
Doc:
The 7th picture (second from the left, bottom row) those figures are cosmix/exogini, right?
And the rest of the figures, that are MUSCLE sculpts, are random bootlegs?
I think they are Future men, they are not from my exogini collection and dont think the sculpts are exogini (id have to check) or the colors the same as exogini.
The other figures are random bootlegs yes, some from hong kong, some from china etc...
Ok I just looked, the sculpts are exohini, but the colors are not from what I know about exogini.
#56
Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:14 AM
but every once in a while a figure in other colors (transparent orange, transparent green, transparent violet and transparent yellow) pops up, and they are quite rare among collectors!
... hope this helps!
#57 Guest_General Veers_*
Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:58 AM
Among the list of questions I've already posted, I have one more. Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?
As I've said before I see both sides of this argument. My belief is that we do not include the above mentioned figures. While I have several reasons for that belief, I think it hinges on two main points:
1. Marty and Wolf are creating custom pieces, not designed for mass retail. While both technically copy MUSCLE figures the goal is not to delude people into thinking they are authentic. I believe the majority of counterfeit MUSCLE figures were designed to be close enough to have parents and children not care or even not notice.
2. Exogini-like figures were released, unlicensed, by as an actual product. A company took the time to structure them as a brand for their company. I see them as similar to Uzay Star Wars figures. While both are unlicensed reproductions, their quality and comprehensiveness somehow given them a different identity than crudely made cheap knock-offs.
But as this is everyone's virtual collection I wanted to get a sense of what people thought.
#58
Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:03 AM
First, thank you to all the people helping with this project. I actually feel overwhelmed with pictures and information – but that's a good thing and I hope it doesn't deter anyone from sending in pictures of their figures. I think this virtual collection is going to turn out great!
Among the list of questions I've already posted, I have one more. Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?
As I've said before I see both sides of this argument. My belief is that we do not include the above mentioned figures. While I have several reasons for that belief, I think it hinges on two main points:
1. Marty and Wolf are creating custom pieces, not designed for mass retail. While both technically copy MUSCLE figures the goal is not to delude people into thinking they are authentic. I believe the majority of counterfeit MUSCLE figures were designed to be close enough to have parents and children not care or even not notice.
2. Exogini-like figures were released, unlicensed, by as an actual product. A company took the time to structure them as a brand for their company. I see them as similar to Uzay Star Wars figures. While both are unlicensed reproductions, their quality and comprehensiveness somehow given them a different identity than crudely made cheap knock-offs.
But as this is everyone's virtual collection I wanted to get a sense of what people thought.
Veers, just an idea, but maybe a write up with pictures of peoples' creative figures from Marty and Wolf (to extend beyond MUSCLE)?
#59
Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:09 AM
Among the list of questions I've already posted, I have one more. Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?
As I've said before I see both sides of this argument. My belief is that we do not include the above mentioned figures. While I have several reasons for that belief, I think it hinges on two main points:
1. Marty and Wolf are creating custom pieces, not designed for mass retail. While both technically copy MUSCLE figures the goal is not to delude people into thinking they are authentic. I believe the majority of counterfeit MUSCLE figures were designed to be close enough to have parents and children not care or even not notice.
2. Exogini-like figures were released, unlicensed, by as an actual product. A company took the time to structure them as a brand for their company. I see them as similar to Uzay Star Wars figures. While both are unlicensed reproductions, their quality and comprehensiveness somehow given them a different identity than crudely made cheap knock-offs.
But as this is everyone's virtual collection I wanted to get a sense of what people thought.
I think you've totally nailed some of the big differences in #1 there between customs and boots. Everything is really different, from the production scale, to promotion and intention.
I think #2 is a little more subjective, but would still agree with them being separate, if more for the spirit of the thing than for technical differences. Cosmix and Exogini have their own brand identity, even if they technically are copies. I think they are in their own category, even if it's a little hard to define concretely.
#62
Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:26 AM
Maybe a good way to identify a bootleg line is to compare the market in different countries, here in Italy the Exogini was not a line sold in gumball vending machines, but was sold under the italian leader of toys at that time (GiG, acquired later by Giochi Preziosi, the brand of Gormiti) and generated a hype never saw, only recently the same kind of hype was reached by Gormiti one or two years ago, now even the lords of nature begun to weaken.
The customs should be not included too, they are not mass produced and they not have a wide distribution.
#63
Posted 25 May 2010 - 04:13 PM
The customs should be not included too, they are not mass produced and they not have a wide distribution.
I agree with his statment. I have to say customs are not bootlegs.
#64
Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:02 PM
It's not really a matter of opinion actually. A rose by any other name is still a rose. "Customs" are unauthorized, exact copies of toy figures sold for profit. That also happens to what bootleg toys are, haha.I agree with his statment. I have to say customs are not bootlegs.
The only question here is whether this type of bootleg MUSCLE should be included in Veers/Biffard's project.
Personally I think they should be included because TGB only ever reproduced popular MUSCLE sculpts such as MEAT, SC, Claw, and Sunshine. these also happen to be sculpts that weren't often reproduced by Asian bootleggers. in short, you may need TGB's figures to complete the set.
#65
Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:57 PM
It's not really a matter of opinion actually. A rose by any other name is still a rose. "Customs" are unauthorized, exact copies of toy figures sold for profit. That also happens to what bootleg toys are, haha.
The only question here is whether this type of bootleg MUSCLE should be included in Veers/Biffard's project.
Personally I think they should be included because TGB only ever reproduced popular MUSCLE sculpts such as MEAT, SC, Claw, and Sunshine. these also happen to be sculpts that weren't often reproduced by Asian bootleggers. in short, you may need TGB's figures to complete the set.
So what your saying is glow in the dark, mixed colors, GITD, growing, black light reactive, magetic or other type of attribute customs figures are bootlegs. It just dosent make any sense. They been customize in a way. It doesnt fall in a bootleg/counterfeit catagory.
#66
Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:09 PM
A bootleg is any unlicensed reproduction. Pretty straight forward.So what your saying is glow in the dark, mixed colors, GITD, growing, black light reactive, magetic or other type of attribute customs figures are bootlegs. It just dosent make any sense. They been customize in a way. It doesnt fall in a bootleg/counterfeit catagory.
#67
Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:16 PM
Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?
I agree 100% with soupie with the fact that exogini and customs are bootlegs. No doubt about it they are the definition of bootlegs no matter what we call them.
However, to answer veers's question, I say they should not be included in the Counterfeit Collection. While they are technically bootlegs, I think they fall under a sub-categorization of bootlegs and deserve their own attention due to their origins and history. Exogini were mass produced and marketed so their history is fairly well known. Customs usually are not mass produced but their history and origins are usually easily identified. Most other bootlegs are missing the explanations of their origins and history and are more questionable in nature because of all the mystery surrounding them. That is why, in my opinion, exogini and customs should be considered sub-categorizations of bootlegs and thus excluded from this particular project.
Now for my contradiction, sort of. I personally think that in order to complete a full set of muscle figure bootlegs exogini and/or customs will have to be included. However for veer's and my projects the goal is to see if a complete set is even obtainable. I think as time and documentation continues we will reach a point that in order to complete a full set of all 233 bootlegs, we will have to include customs and/or exogini but for right now we should exclude them just to see if it is even possible with the more "mysterious in nature" bootlegs.
I'm glad we are trying to clear this up and figure out what's what a little better and someone please respond if they think differently than me. I'm excited to see this topic evolve and I hope others will post their opinions so we can get more feedback
Edited by Biffard, 25 May 2010 - 06:18 PM.
#68
Posted 25 May 2010 - 09:38 PM
#69 Guest_General Veers_*
Posted 26 May 2010 - 05:11 AM
However, if there comes a point where it appears that the set cannot be completed without those figures, then there are not any objections to using them. And the goal would still remain to replace and Exogini, Wolf, and/or Mart figures if they are ever used.
#70
Posted 26 May 2010 - 04:01 PM
A bootleg is any unlicensed reproduction. Pretty straight forward.
Quite true, but at the same time the literal definition isn't a straight jacket here. I think there's some consensus that there are different "styles" and this project can target whichever one they want.
#71
Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:35 PM
DSC00129.JPG 553.46K 29 downloads
Edited by Ericnilla, 27 May 2010 - 01:37 PM.
#72
Posted 29 May 2010 - 05:21 AM
In my opinion, this is the way to go.Ok, what I'm hearing is - the goal will be to complete the counterfeit set without Exogini-type figures nor figures made by Wolf and Marty.
However, if there comes a point where it appears that the set cannot be completed without those figures, then there are not any objections to using them. And the goal would still remain to replace and Exogini, Wolf, and/or Mart figures if they are ever used.
This is a really interesting project, good stuff everyone.
I vaguely recall having some bootlegs a few years ago and I think I might have traded them to fuzzbuster, that mad fool!
#73
Posted 31 May 2010 - 04:36 PM
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#74 Guest_General Veers_*
Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:48 PM
I was re-reading the thread and it left me with one main question: Are we absolutely sure that pink #153 is a bootleg?Apparently you can narrow that list: Gilgar's find.
There wasn't much discussion. Is that a result of it being a slam dunk bootleg or not want to disagree with jkaris?
#75
Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:56 PM