105 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Okay, Topher has emailed me some pics of the colored MUSCLEs he has that are needed for the MCIA.

Unfortunately, the pics are pretty blurry. Not too blurry that the figures can't be identified, but too blurry to use for the MCIA.

In any case, Topher has given me an image of #071 in Dark Blue. This figure belongs to Part Five, Tree One which was previously "Uncertain" in Dark Blue!

That means there are now only 3 uncertain trees/colors, all which happen to be Orange.

Attached is a picture of #071db.

Thanks Topher!

Attached Files

•  071fdb.jpg   7.9K   39 downloads

[rlek2]

Hi Soupie... double checked my muscledb... found a couple more you have listed as needs (nothing major though)

Cheers, Ryan

red 113

Attached Files

•  red113.jpg   19.96K   27 downloads

[rlek2]

light blue 61

Attached Files

•  lb61.jpg   20.56K   31 downloads

[Soupie]

Hi Soupie... double checked my muscledb... found a couple more you have listed as needs (nothing major though)

Perfect, thanks!

[arforbes]

You say there's usually two of a figure on a Tree, correct?

What if that figure didn't have the "thematic" element they wanted to be apparent, but still had the "cool" factor they wanted, or was a figure that had several other forms but wasn't "forefronted" on the packaging (like sunshine's top, for an example of both).

Why wouldn't they just plug one of the sculpts on the tree?

Well the two figure thing is really just hypothesis, but Arforbes find gives us reason to believe so.

Also I don't think theme or cool factor was of any concern when picking and choosing sculpts for the Muscle line. Most of the Non-Muscle sculpts are quite unique. Also have you looked at the sculpts that did make it? There are like 20 Kinnikumans alone.

Also characters on the packages didn't have any significance either. They hadn't finalized the run yet apparently, because the back of the 28 pack has numerous Non-Muscle characters pictured such as Brocken and Black Kamfu.

All in all, if they even did use plugs, there had to be a very good reason why they didn't use some sculpts. Another possibility may have been that the plastic they were using wouldn't fill out the molds properly for some reason, and all the Non-Muscle sculpts we know of always or most of the time came out with defects. This may also explain why the 28 packs had posters with 400 figures on the back of them. Maybe they planned on using all the sculpts available, but the molds kept screwing up on them, so they said, "Screw just use the ones we can make." We will probably never know.

So getting back onto the topic of "trees" a bit here...we have established that the same tree molds that produced the Kinkeshi also were used to produce the M.U.S.C.L.E. line. And since the trees corresponded to the Parts of the Kinnikuman line, then some figure molds would have had to be either plugged to prevent certain figures from being made into M.U.S.C.L.E.s, or pulled after production of the Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts that were created if plugs were not the method used to make only the M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts.

I believe this is the origin of our Super Rares, some plugs either fell out...or if plugs were not used, then some Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts were surely overlooked and put into packaging instead of being discarded.

We have seen all of our Super Rares in FLESH only though. Wouldn't it be safe to say that at least some Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts slipped under the radar of sorters or some plugs broke free during the production of colored M.U.S.C.L.E.s too?

So why haven't we seen and Colored Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts?

[Soupie]

Actually, the current SR origin theory that I subscribe to is the MUSCLE Plastic Theory.

It goes like this:

(1) Bandai used the same exact family molds to make both the Keshi and MUSCLEs.
(2) When Bandai used the MUSCLE plastic in the molds, they found that the plastic didn't consistently fill all the cavities. (Particularly those on the ends of the molds.)
(3) This means the cavities (sculpts) that did not fill consistently will be rare.
(4) Eventually, or immediately, the Bandai workers simply irreversably blocked the cavities that were not filling consistently.
(5) Thus, no more SR sculpts were made in FLESH, and none were made in COLOR.

Check it all out here beginning with this post.

[arforbes]

Actually, the current SR origin theory that I subscribe to is the MUSCLE Plastic Theory.

It goes like this:

(1) Bandai used the same exact family molds to make both the Keshi and MUSCLEs.
(2) When Bandai used the MUSCLE plastic in the molds, they found that the plastic didn't consistently fill all the cavities. (Particularly those on the ends of the molds.)
(3) This means the cavities (sculpts) that did not fill consistently will be rare.
(4) Eventually, or immediately, the Bandai workers simply irreversably blocked the cavities that were not filling consistently.
(5) Thus, no more SR sculpts were made in FLESH, and none were made in COLOR.

Check it all out here beginning with this post.

That makes sense, and would explain the rarity of the Non M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpt figures. This also explains why we have only seen them produced in flesh, since flesh figures were produced first. But out of all the molds made, the chance of a mistake in the factory is possible too. What if a plug came loose or the seal on a blocked mold broke free, producing a colored Non M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpt that was added in with the rest of the figures and packaged up for sale. Unlikely, but still possible...

I've always wanted to find a GREEN Satancross!

Edited by arforbes, 15 July 2006 - 03:20 PM.

[Soupie]

But out of all the molds made, the chance of a mistake in the factory is possible too.  What if a plug came loose or the seal on a blocked mold broke free, producing a colored Non M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpt that was added in with the rest of the figures and packaged up for sale.  Unlikely, but still possible...

I'm certainly no expert, but I actually don't think it is possible. The reason being that blocking cavities appears to be a pretty major opertation. It seriously affects the way a mold behaves by changing its "balance."

When a cavity is blocked, it entails more than simply adding a plug that could fall out. Instead, the mold is permanently changed into basically a new mold with fewer cavities.

It also does not seem to be the "proper" thing to do among mold makers. However, the reason I think Bandai did was because (1) they didn't want to spend the time and money to make new molds, (2) Mattel perhaps was intent on using the firmer MUSCLE plastic, and (3) Mattel knew Americans wouldn't miss any of the sculpts being blocked off.

[arforbes]

But out of all the molds made, the chance of a mistake in the factory is possible too.  What if a plug came loose or the seal on a blocked mold broke free, producing a colored Non M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpt that was added in with the rest of the figures and packaged up for sale.  Unlikely, but still possible...

I'm certainly no expert, but I actually don't think it is possible. The reason being that blocking cavities appears to be a pretty major opertation. It seriously affects the way a mold behaves by changing its "balance."

When a cavity is blocked, it entails more than simply adding a plug that could fall out. Instead, the mold is permanently changed into basically a new mold with fewer cavities.

It also does not seem to be the "proper" thing to do among mold makers. However, the reason I think Bandai did was because (1) they didn't want to spend the time and money to make new molds, (2) Mattel perhaps was intent on using the firmer MUSCLE plastic, and (3) Mattel knew Americans wouldn't miss any of the sculpts being blocked off.

Do you think Bandai did this mold blocking even though it would affect the mold's balance?

[Soupie]

Yes. Note that the string you found had doubles of each sculpt. Well, when one or two cavities were having problems filling correctly, and they made the decision to block them off, in order to maintain the balance of the mold, they would block off the cavity on the other side as well -- which happened to be the double.

That's why we see no (or very few) non-MUSCLE sculpts, even though it seems there were two identical sculpts per mold.

(This theory explains a lot of stuff, including why kinkeshi being made in the same year as MUSCLE seem not to be missing any sculpts, and why, perhaps, we don't see any non-MUSCLE sculpts in kinkeshi released lines after the MUSCLE line. All non-MUSCLE sculpts prodeuced after the MUSCLE line appear not to have been made from the original molds.)

[arforbes]

Yes. Note that the string you found had doubles of each sculpt. Well, when one or two cavities were having problems filling correctly, and they made the decision to block them off, in order to maintain the balance of the mold, they would block off the cavity on the other side as well -- which happened to be the double.

That's why we see no (or very few) non-MUSCLE sculpts, even though it seems there were two identical sculpts per mold.

(This theory explains a lot of stuff, including why kinkeshi being made in the same year as MUSCLE seem not to be missing any sculpts, and why, perhaps, we don't see any non-MUSCLE sculpts in kinkeshi released lines after the MUSCLE line. All non-MUSCLE sculpts prodeuced after the MUSCLE line appear not to have been made from the original molds.)

So say that Bandai did perform this blocking process, but on one single mold (or on an overlooked few molds) out of all the molds made by Bandai they forgot to block let's say the end figure on the tree, which happened to be a Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpt, thereby leaving two Non-M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts open for production since they were made in pairs on the tree. Say this happened in only one factory and the other molds in other factories were blocked correctly for the M.U.S.C.L.E. toyline. What if this single figure was produced in color as well later during color production because no one ever noticed this one mold. That would leave a few colored Super Rares out there within the toyline to be discovered out of the millions of colored figures produced. A possibility?

[Soupie]

Say this happened in only one factory and the other molds in other factories were blocked correctly for the M.U.S.C.L.E. toyline.

That's assuming there were multiple factories and multiple duplicate molds.

I've done some research in the past trying to find a book or anything about Bandai. From reading their Web site, it appears that they only have one factory. Though I could certainly be wrong.

Also, I believe jkaris has said the molds are extremely expensive... in the thousands of dollars. It is very possible that there were only one to two molds. (We can guess that there were at least two because of the multi-part figures that come with the attachements on either side -- although they could technically have come from the same mold, I suppose, as there are two identical sculpts per mold. Perhaps the extra pieces are attached to the main sculpt differently on the two identical figure sculpts on either side of the main family mold for some reason.)

In any case, though, you may be right. Hell, I'm not even sure the Plastic theory is what happened.

Why are you being so damned persistent, anyway? DID YOU FIND A COLORED SUPER RARE!

[jkaris]

Why are you being so damned persistent, anyway? DID YOU FIND A COLORED SUPER RARE!

Now THAT would be something!

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well seeing as muscles were quite cheap to make and pulled in such a profit as they were, I don't think Mattel made a big hissy fit about mold damage. They probably didn't realize anything was wrong with any molds, until they sent them to the factories that made the figures. Chances are the factory called up and said, " were having molding problems." Then Mattel would have been like, "Are they really bad?" Then the factory would have been like, "No not really, only a few sculpts are acting up." Then Mattel would have said, "Well, a few figures aren't a big loss, so as long as you guys can get most of them out then you can do what you want." Then the factory said, "O.k." ......................






I just had a brain hernia......

[matthewf1tz]

Why are you being so damned persistent, anyway? DID YOU FIND A COLORED SUPER RARE!

Now THAT would be something!

hmmm......

and the fact that you've mentioned a figure in particular gives me a little bit of hope for the actual figure you've mentioned. If anyone were ever to find a coloured super rare I'd put money on it being Alex AND if it was found I would also put money on it being Satan Cross (although not a super rare in flesh in colour I'd consider that super rare). The reason I reckon it would be SC is pretty obvious due to the sheer number of flesh figures of this non-poster sculpt.

Alex........have you got something to share!?!?

[Soupie]

I would also put money on it being Satan Cross (although not a super rare in flesh in colour I'd consider that super rare). The reason I reckon it would be SC is pretty obvious due to the sheer number of flesh figures of this non-poster sculpt.

Exactly! If the mold blocking did take place, it's obvious that the SC cavity was not blocked until the end, as SC in FLESH is by most accounts uncommon, if not common! (However, it appears that his legs most certainly were blocked.)

Maybe SC was not blocked until they started running the molds in color and one or two colored SCs slipped through in color...

Part 21, Tree 2 -- the tree that SC may belong to -- a tree that looks like it got majorly effed up -- just happens to be common in GREEN.

[arforbes]

Why are you being so damned persistent, anyway? DID YOU FIND A COLORED SUPER RARE!

Now THAT would be something!

[rlek2]

Wow... if this is true... does this mean we have that many more super rares that could exist...?

Edited by rlek2, 17 July 2006 - 09:32 AM.

[THEGODBEAST]

Why are you being so damned persistent, anyway? DID YOU FIND A COLORED SUPER RARE!

Now THAT would be something!

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE Avatar Alex!!!

A SUPER RARE RED GERONIMO crouchin'!!!

Holy CRAP!!!

NICE SCORE!!!

TGB

Edited by THEGODBEAST, 17 July 2006 - 09:43 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, if he found it in a Japanese lot then I (personally) wouldn't consider it a genuine muscle figure, even if it is made of the same plastic. Like the 11 Jkaris found, they could have easily been made by an employee who worked in the factories that produced the figures. But if I'm wrong, and Alex found it in an american lot of colored muscles, then congrats. It's a most unexpected find in either case. It also opens up the possibility that other Super Rares that havn't been found in flesh, may in fact be found in color. Quite odd.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

And to add......Here is the page on part 13 on Soupies site.Part 13 As you can see tree 2 is common in red, which would lead us to believe that Jeronimo is from the second tree of figures, and indeed the factories used plugs when molding for some unknown reason. The molds are small, and I honestly don't think that plugging a mold or two on a tree would really affect the flow of material much.

[arforbes]

Well, if he found it in a Japanese lot then I (personally) wouldn't consider it a genuine muscle figure, even if it is made of the same plastic. Like the 11 Jkaris found, they could have easily been made by an employee who worked in the factories that produced the figures. But if I'm wrong, and Alex found it in an american lot of colored muscles, then congrats. It's a most unexpected find in either case. It also opens up the possibility that other Super Rares that havn't been found in flesh, may in fact be found in color. Quite odd.

It was found in an American Flesh/Colored M.U.S.C.L.E. lot on ebay.

[Soupie]

As you can see tree 2 is common in red, which would lead us to believe that Jeronimo is from the second tree of figures

Furthermore, the first tree in this part consists of 6 figures, while the second tree, minus Geronimom only has five. Thus, if we assume Geronimo was part of the second tree, the trees will be an even 6 and 6.

Nice find, Arforbes! eBay auction pictures, if you managed to save them, and some more details (location, etc.) would be awesome.

Oh, yeah, a picture for the MCIA would be cool too. (Along with the PURPLE sunshine pyramid.)

[Soupie]

And OF COURSE I'm skeptical that TGB was the first person to respond... I'm sure mixing up a MUSCLE-RED plastic wouldn't be too hard.

[arforbes]

As you can see tree 2 is common in red, which would lead us to believe that Jeronimo is from the second tree of figures

Furthermore, the first tree in this part consists of 6 figures, while the second tree, minus Geronimom only has five. Thus, if we assume Geronimo was part of the second tree, the trees will be an even 6 and 6.

Nice find, Arforbes! eBay auction pictures, if you managed to save them, and some more details (location, etc.) would be awesome.

Oh, yeah, a picture for the MCIA would be cool too. (Along with the PURPLE sunshine pyramid.)

Sure thing...

Here's the auction pic attached. Once again this Super Rare surfaced in the northern east coast area, New York! I think I am going to start a new thread for this figure for ease of finding it for reference in the future.



And don't worry Soupie, this is not a joke like the Red Hole Sunshine...this is the real deal. Here's the link to the new Red Geronimo thread with pics...

Super Rare RED Geronimo Discovered

Edited by arforbes, 17 July 2006 - 12:05 PM.