125 replies to this topic

[bachamn]

I recently completed a trade for my authentic Skull Grotess laser, and in the process took some comparison photos of the authentic laser vs. the reproduction laser that I display with my collection. I thought it would be helpful to share those comparison pics with the community so you can all be informed consumers.

 

As you can see, the reproduction weapons are made of a firmer plastic which causes the details to be slightly more rigid. The color of the authentic weapons are also a darker shade and the plastic has more evident texture in the coloring whereas the repro lasers are made of a noticeably flat-colored plastic. You can also tell the difference in the weights as the repros are much lighter. When dropped on a table-top, the repros make a noticeably higher pitched *clacking* noise than the authentic lasers again because they are made of a denser, less rigid plastic.

 

I'll get some comparisons of a silver weapon soon and post those here as well.

 

 IMG_20130821_123852.jpg   212.88K   33 downloads   IMG_20130821_123844.jpg   227.02K   44 downloads

Edited by bachamn, 21 August 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[eightystoynut]

I recently completed a trade for my authentic Skull Grotess laser, and in the process took some comparison photos of the authentic laser vs. the reproduction laser that I display with my collection. I thought it would be helpful to share those comparison pics with the community so you can all be informed consumers.

As you can see, the reproduction weapons are made of a firmer plastic which causes the details to be slightly more rigid. The color of the authentic weapons are also a darker shade and the plastic has more evident texture in the coloring whereas the repro lasers are made of a noticeably flat-colored plastic. You can also tell the difference in the weights as the repros are much lighter. When dropped on a table-top, the repros make a noticeably higher pitched *clacking* noise than the authentic lasers again because they are made of a denser, less rigid plastic.

I'll get some comparisons of a silver weapon soon and post those here as well.

IMG_20130821_123852.jpg IMG_20130821_123844.jpg

Is this a Godbeast repro Skull Grotess laser or one from the Chinese teacher seller on eBay a couple of months ago?

[bachamn]

Is this a Godbeast repro Skull Grotess laser or one from the Chinese teacher seller on eBay a couple of months ago?

my repro set is from China

[BlacktownWalrus]

Thanks Bachman for the information very helpful.  Any way you have have a small digital scale and could weigh the two?  

[tokyonever]

Very nice repro Bachamn, where you ontained it please? It was on the Bay?

[bachamn]

Very nice repro Bachamn, where you ontained it please? It was on the Bay?

Yeah, I bought this set the last time they popped up on eBay a few months ago. Due to language barriers I wasn't able to get any details from the seller regarding how he was actually having them made, but I'm assuming he had some sort of factory he was working from as he was also selling chariots and shields in gold/silver chrome. (bought a few of these as well) I think in all the guy has popped up and sold 3-4 incomplete sets of 33 repro weapons, all of which were inexplicably missing Fight Horn, Strong Hurricane, and Dino Gator lasers (to my knowledge). Not really a reliable source; which is why I was excited to hear you were making reproductions the legit way.

 

Do you have any interest in molding/casting the lasers as well? I know there are members here who would be happy with repro lasers but they don't seem to turn up very often.

Edited by bachamn, 24 August 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[bachamn]

Thanks Bachman for the information very helpful.  Any way you have have a small digital scale and could weigh the two?  

Great idea! Why didn't I think of that?

 

Unfortunately I've already mailed off the Grotess gun, but I do have some others to compare. Here's a comparison between the repro and authentic Sea Panic lasers I have. 

 

 IMG_20130824_070839.jpg   156.65K   24 downloads

 

As you can see, there is a .5g discrepancy. I also compared Salmomancer and Rainbow Sam weapons, and while they all had varying weights due to different sizes, they were all about .5g in difference, with the authentic weapons always weighing more.

 

Hope this helps!

Edited by bachamn, 24 August 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[tokyonever]

Do you have any interest in molding/casting the lasers as well? I know there are members here who would be happy with repro lasers but they don't seem to turn up very often.

 

Thx for your answer Bachamn, yes it is something that I envisage to do

[Beastformers]

If repro guns would become reality as well please don't forget to leave a repro mark somewhere! Those Chinese repro guns have already done more bad than good and they'll only do more harm if they end up in the wrong hands.

 

I did actually have contact with the Chinese seller for a while and he had them casted by a friend in a factory where they actually had the original molds available this can be confirmed by the fact that these casts made were almost perfectly. Normally the original molds are destroyed which might be the reason that 3 of the guns have not been reproduced. Where the difference on the Silver ones is pretty clear the Brown colored ones are pretty hard to distinguish but the weight comparisson might show the outcome concerning the Chinese weapons.

 

Concerning the photo of Bacham on which there is a clear difference in color between the genuine and repo weapon I'd like to place a side note because guns which have been kept in the original packaging automatically tend to be quite a bit darker than the genuine ones which have been around and out of the boxes for years so the clear difference in color as shown there shouldn't be a solid guide!

 

For now its clear that the repro's do have a direct effect on the market value of the genuine items as I've been in touch with a couple of fellow collectors offering genuine shields and or figs with shield and all prices have clearly dropped with serious amounts. On the long term the effect is expected to be less but I hope all people who are in this reproduction business realise that this development goes two ways resulting in happy collectors on one hand while they can get there hands on items they'd never be able or willing to purchase while on the other hand its slowly killing this line which for most of the diehard collectors is based on nostalgia, and nostalgia isn't produced in 2013.......

 

They are and always will hold a certain threat in them concerning the reliability of the whole Battle Beasts line so the producers of these repro's should be well aware that they hold a piece of liability here for the sake of the whole vintage line!

[Coelocanth]

...while on the other hand its slowly killing this line which for most of the diehard collectors is based on nostalgia, and nostalgia isn't produced in 2013.......

 

Come on - that's kind of a ridiculous statement. I get where you're coming from, but vintage Star Wars isn't dead because of knockoffs. Vintage Transformers isn't dead because of knockoffs.

[BlacktownWalrus]

Awesome thanks bachman very good to know bout the weight difference 

[tokyonever]

If repro guns would become reality as well please don't forget to leave a repro mark somewhere!

 

Yes, a distinctive sign will be added on them if I am doing something, It is important at my eyes to be able to differentiate the things between them.

[Beastformers]

Come on - that's kind of a ridiculous statement. I get where you're coming from, but vintage Star Wars isn't dead because of knockoffs. Vintage Transformers isn't dead because of knockoffs.

 

So knockoffs are not harming these lines in your opinion!? I'm not into any of those lines but from what I've heard from it the whole collecting field got f#cked up due to the fact that you've to be almost a professor to get the differences between some ko clearified so there are a lot of (new) collectors that are getting burned by spending tons of money thinking they buy the real deal while they actually end up buying a ko which is only a fraction of the price. Especially in those lines there are some serious $$ going around which means it also brings a lot of scams and this is something I'd like to prevent as I keep fighting for all repro's to be clearly marked in a way so that also the (new) collectors who might not have the view or experience some of us out here have are getting burned in the future. As longs as it stays amongst the good people its all safe but the moment it ends up in the wrong hands and people are there to make $$ with it they will..........

 

Think Bacham's weight difference test is already telling more than enough because if someone would've listed those on Ebay as Genuine Weapons a lot of people out there would not have known about this and pay the full prices. Its already ridiculous to have them tested for their weight or another kind of tiny little difference the moment they come in. But we've been experience this in the past with these guns showing up on Ebay and we all know how that has ended, but there might come a moment they pass by unoticed.

[FANtomCore]

So now you can tell the difference between those 1st gen repros by color, firmness and weight.

[Coelocanth]

...

 

I didn't say the lines weren't harmed. That's undoubtedly true.

 

But you said that the repros were slowly killing the line. And that's entirely different.

[bachamn]

Think Bacham's weight difference test is already telling more than enough because if someone would've listed those on Ebay as Genuine Weapons a lot of people out there would not have known about this and pay the full prices. Its already ridiculous to have them tested for their weight or another kind of tiny little difference the moment they come in. But we've been experience this in the past with these guns showing up on Ebay and we all know how that has ended, but there might come a moment they pass by unoticed.

I was doing this to inform the community simply because I have access to them, and as an extra reassurance to the member I traded with. I wasn't asked, so we don't have to do it. You say that like weighing them was something we all have resigned to doing every single time but I don't believe anyone else has even done this before I pulled out my scale this weekend, I just thought it would be an extra bit of info for the communty to digest. So no, this is not a "ridiculous sign of our times", it's just my proclivity for over-sharing.

 

Also, I feel it's necessary to mention that the incident you referenced on eBay that 'we all know how that turned out' but in fact, we don't. Nothing was ever resolved, I just remember a lot of speculation and finger pointing, much of which was provided by yourself. I'm not really interested in revisiting all the rest of that since it's all in the earlier parts in this thread. Moving on, there was no point in asking Johnny if he was planning on adding a repro mark to lasers if he created them since he's already clearly marked the stuff he's made with "REPRO". It seems that you were just looking to create another opportunity to rant about this again :/

 

I mentioned before that I feel like you're primarily approaching this discussion as a re-seller, so I don't think we're ever going to agree on this point. It seems that for you there is simply too much money invested in the figures to ignore any potential depreciation in their value without outcry, but for me and lots of other collectors who could give two damns about the actual resale value of these figures, repros do absolutely nothing to kill or diminish the collect-ability of the line but instead breath life into the line. Nostalgia drives all of us to collect toys from our childhood, and the way I look at it the fact that there are people 25 years later still creating accessories and reproduction casts that support those very toys is an amazing stroke of luck and a very good thing. 2013 or not, it's never going to 1987 again.

Edited by bachamn, 26 August 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Coelocanth]

...for me and lots of other collectors who could give two damns about the actual resale value of these figures, repros do absolutely nothing to kill or diminish the collect-ability of the line but instead breath life into the line. Nostalgia drives all of us to collect toys from our childhood, and the way I look at it the fact that there are people 25 years later still creating accessories and reproduction casts that support those very toys is an amazing stroke of luck and a very good thing. 2013 or not, it's never going to be 1987 again.

 

Well said.

[bachamn]

Concerning the photo of Bacham on which there is a clear difference in color between the genuine and repo weapon I'd like to place a side note because guns which have been kept in the original packaging automatically tend to be quite a bit darker than the genuine ones which have been around and out of the boxes for years so the clear difference in color as shown there shouldn't be a solid guide!

This is an interesting point, however the Skull Grotess laser in the photos above was the one I picked up from a loose lot on YAJ a few months ago that did not come with any of the original packaging, so the coloration of that particular laser doesn't seem to fit that condition. Has anyone else noticed darker weapons from packages specifically? I've definitely seen variations in the colors of weapons but I thought this had more to do with different production runs and variations in the plastic dyes than it did with how they were stored? 

[Beastformers]

I was doing this to inform the community simply because I have access to them, and as an extra reassurance to the member I traded with. I wasn't asked, so we don't have to do it. You say that like weighing them was something we all have resigned to doing every single time but I don't believe anyone else has even done this before I pulled out my scale this weekend, I just thought it would be an extra bit of info for the communty to digest. So no, this is not a "ridiculous sign of our times", it's just my proclivity for over-sharing.

 

Also, I feel it's necessary to mention that the incident you referenced on eBay that 'we all know how that turned out' but in fact, we don't. Nothing was ever resolved, I just remember a lot of speculation and finger pointing, much of which was provided by yourself. I'm not really interested in revisiting all the rest of that since it's all in the earlier parts in this thread. Moving on, there was no point in asking Johnny if he was planning on adding a repro mark to lasers if he created them since he's already clearly marked the stuff he's made with "REPRO". It seems that you were just looking to create another opportunity to rant about this again :/

 

I mentioned before that I feel like you're primarily approaching this discussion as a re-seller, so I don't think we're ever going to agree on this point. It seems that for you there is simply too much money invested in the figures to ignore any potential depreciation in their value without outcry, but for me and lots of other collectors who could give two damns about the actual resale value of these figures, repros do absolutely nothing to kill or diminish the collect-ability of the line but instead breath life into the line. Nostalgia drives all of us to collect toys from our childhood, and the way I look at it the fact that there are people 25 years later still creating accessories and reproduction casts that support those very toys is an amazing stroke of luck and a very good thing. 2013 or not, it's never going to 1987 again.

 

I appreciate your effort and time on the weight results so I might have explained some things a little bit in the wrong way or you've understood mine different somehow. My comment was and is not concerning these results you've shared with us but it was related to the completely unmarked repro guns in general meaning that is would be rediculous knowing that the only way we'd be able to test if we have bought an original or a geniuine gun off of Ebay is to weigh them. For me that would just be rediculous but than again it is at least a way to figure it out. So your test is for sure helpfull but it shouldn't have been needed in the first place which is the point I've been trying to make here. A simple mark does the whole trick and we can all be happy.

 

Well the whole Ebay issue has died slowly but it has continued behind the scene's and I've been in touch with JKaris about it a couple of times since he was the one who'd actually gave us the outcome right? The guns would've been send his way so we would all be happy when he would let us know it were indeed geniune guns. Well those guns were never shipped out to him and also the communication with the concerning member stopped completely. So its up to everyone on its own to decide what they think but I believe enough has been said about that back than and with not shipping those guns out for the check which was generaly agreed with is just an addition to the whole story.

 

The discussion about me as a reseller has been held a couple of times again and I've always tried to clearify my point of view but I don't feel the urge and need to defend myself here because the fellow members out here which who I have contact and done deals/trades with know me and I thinkn if you'd like to judge me on just the word of reseller below my title it says more about you than about me. But if that's how you feel I've to accept that. I do have 'invested' a few $$ in my figures but I never mention anything about the time and efforts I take to try and complete figures in the best possible conditions and complete with weapons so that if someone is interested in them I am able to offer them a complete piece of history in a good condition instead of a damaged beast without rub and weapon. For some collectors the condition is not so important but for some it is and only those who have complete figs will contribute to spread out the complete story of the BB history because its not about just the figure. But that's my vision on it and as you might have noticed I'm quite a perfectionist and completionist when it comes to these points so I like to see this history to be  passed on in the same way. And luckily for me there are still quite some collectors out here who think about it the same and that do appreciate the effort and time I spend to bring these disonnected pieces together again to be able to tell the whole story....

 

This is an interesting point, however the Skull Grotess laser in the photos above was the one I picked up from a loose lot on YAJ a few months ago that did not come with any of the original packaging, so the coloration of that particular laser doesn't seem to fit that condition. Has anyone else noticed darker weapons from packages specifically? I've definitely seen variations in the colors of weapons but I thought this had more to do with different production runs and variations in the plastic dyes than it did with how they were stored? 

 

Like the Golden Serie 2 weapons which might turn out a little Greenish over time due to different storage conditions or external influences the Brown/Bronze LB weapons have the same issue in some cases which results in the fact they might turn out a bit more dark. So it might have to due with some specific storage conditions in relation to the box or anything connected to that because I can also remember I've seen a lot more Greenish Serie two weapons in the boxed ones I got than the weapons that've been out in the open for much longer. Its hard to tell the exact reason but I just wanted to point out that the obvious color difference your pics show might not be as obvious for others, because as we have been able to see on other side by side pics the color differences in most cases were impossible to spott.

[Beastformers]

I didn't say the lines weren't harmed. That's undoubtedly true.

 

But you said that the repros were slowly killing the line. And that's entirely different.

 

IMHO something that harms a line is contributing to the decrease of quality and that will eventually lead to killing the line but maybe my perspective here is a bit strange.

Anyway looks like we both agree on the fact its not doing a lot of good so far and than its up to everyones own extend to decide how muh harm its doing

[Skullcruncher]

I collect BB becuase they are mostly well designed figures and in an affordable price range plus they also have the important link to transformers.  I do not collect lasers because - well they are too much for me! Eventually I can see all the high end lasers being KO'd (thats the figures) on a larger scale and I will then buy them for sure - as they will be affordable for the common man! ha. Until then I have no real interest in following laser beasts or learning any more about them. So to me as someone who has no lasers, repoductions do the opposite of killing the line - it would make it more available and would allow me to have a wider range of figures! Carry on

[bachamn]

The discussion about me as a reseller has been held a couple of times again and I've always tried to clearify my point of view but I don't feel the urge and need to defend myself here because the fellow members out here which who I have contact and done deals/trades with know me and I thinkn if you'd like to judge me on just the word of reseller below my title it says more about you than about me. But if that's how you feel I've to accept that. 

I think you might have read something into this that wasn't intended. I wasn't passing any judgement on you, I was just just pointing out that as someone who has money invested in the resale of these figures, the prospects of them depreciating in value due for any reason is going to have more on an impact on you. The cost of the figures alone means that all of us who collect LBs have invested money in our collections (some more than others), however the fact that I'm not selling my collection and I don't seek more figures than I need for my own private collection means that it doesn't really matter to me if they go down in value. I'm not out to loose anything other than missed opportunities to have bought them for a cheaper price, whereas for you this essentially means the depreciation of inventory. This doesn't makes you any less of a collector or fan, but it undoubtedly has an effect on your perspective.

 

My only issue here is your tendency to get so hyperbolic about it with the whole "reproductions are eventually going to destroy the line" thing. That's a pretty big leap to take from where we are now, and it also infers that those of us who support and create reproductions are directly contributing to this perceived downfall of the line that we enjoy so much. This is silly, but a little offensive in itself, The people who repro LB items aren't doing it from a desire to hurt the hobby and they're already taking measures to make them distinguishable. The sets that came from China being the exception, but there is no indication that the Chinese seller has any intention or ability to flood the market with them. I recognize that you're entitled to your opinion on this, I'm just saying it would be nice if the rest of us could discuss reproductions (including providing data on how to identify them) in the forums without having to hear the full doomsday speech every time. 

 

I'm really not trying to get into a debate or argument with you man, just calling it like I see it. I've said before that I respect your dedication and thoroughness to your collection; we're just not going to agree on everything and I'm saying I think this is one of those things.

[FANtomCore]

I don't think Repros are killing the market at all, they are certainly having an effect on it, yes. But it's a bit overstated to say they are killing it. I'm greatful for repros, and the only one that "hurt" the market are the ones sold by the Chinese seller. But repros from others, past and present are easy to recognize as repros. TGB made it especially apparent when he made repro stuff, to make them in clearly a different color. I think BB or LB isn't in any immediate danger, if anything I see more and more sellers overcharging for their original BB and LB stuff, compared to 5-7 years ago.

[Beastformers]

I think you might have read something into this that wasn't intended. I wasn't passing any judgement on you, I was just just pointing out that as someone who has money invested in the resale of these figures, the prospects of them depreciating in value due for any reason is going to have more on an impact on you. The cost of the figures alone means that all of us who collect LBs have invested money in our collections (some more than others), however the fact that I'm not selling my collection and I don't seek more figures than I need for my own private collection means that it doesn't really matter to me if they go down in value. I'm not out to loose anything other than missed opportunities to have bought them for a cheaper price, whereas for you this essentially means the depreciation of inventory. This doesn't makes you any less of a collector or fan, but it undoubtedly has an effect on your perspective.

 

My only issue here is your tendency to get so hyperbolic about it with the whole "reproductions are eventually going to destroy the line" thing. That's a pretty big leap to take from where we are now, and it also infers that those of us who support and create reproductions are directly contributing to this perceived downfall of the line that we enjoy so much. This is silly, but a little offensive in itself, The people who repro LB items aren't doing it from a desire to hurt the hobby and they're already taking measures to make them distinguishable. The sets that came from China being the exception, but there is no indication that the Chinese seller has any intention or ability to flood the market with them. I recognize that you're entitled to your opinion on this, I'm just saying it would be nice if the rest of us could discuss reproductions (including providing data on how to identify them) in the forums without having to hear the full doomsday speech every time. 

 

I'm really not trying to get into a debate or argument with you man, just calling it like I see it. I've said before that I respect your dedication and thoroughness to your collection; we're just not going to agree on everything and I'm saying I think this is one of those things.

 

Were all good here mate, think I might've been overreacting a little reading over your reply there thoroughly. Its ok we both have a different vision on it so I'm not blaiming your but its just that our opinions sometimes do come face to face which might sometimes feels like it becomes personal due to the fact were both intense collectors in our on way. That's good and it has to stay that way because all these types of visions and opinions makes what keeps the board interesting eventhough it might devide some in two camps on certain issue but than again in the end were all a fan of the Battle Beasts. I'll try to settle myself on the background a little bit more when it comes to the repro topics, and I did for quite a while I felt, but its sometimes hard not to react when some things are discussed I'm totally against or don't see the value in.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm 100% backing the project you (Bachamn) did especially because its showing the creative and artistic side of the collectors and even more because they bring something new to the collections whereas the TokyoNever shields are the 1 on 1 repro's which I'm not to happy about as mentioned, simply becaus the job done there trying to copy the shields just worked to good. Which is proven by the fact that even some of the most diehard collectors out here switch camps and cross over to accepting the repro's. I can't blaim them because they look good but its just something that's in conflict with my vision.  

 

History has been written the way it is and I'm not completely understanding why mankind feels the urge to reproduce items from the past in the present days just because they'd like to hold a piece of history. It just doesn't match the whole story in my opinion and it takes away the romance and a bit of the collectors value (which isn't directly related to money IMHO) of the original pieces. If every Chinese would start buying a perfect 1 on 1 copy of the Mona Lisa the urge for them of having to travel to the Louvre in Paris becomes much less so it will take away an experience for them as the whole journey might even be more important than to actually see it and I'd even say its disrespectfull for the true master who made it. I know this is all about a toyline which was spread worldwide and of each and every items probably thousands are out there but I hope this shows a little bit of my thoughts. For me the actuall hunt and trace for items I'm after is the whole fun part, so its the journey that does it for me, because in the end when I get the item whether its for my own collection or someone a fellow collector requested me about its checked and done the moment it comes in. With these out there the urge and excitment of having to wait and hunt for an item your looking for is all gone as you can simply order a perfect copy for much less, so in the end its the same result but with a completely different mindset. And thus the reason why visions and perspectives of members are in conflict with each other once in a while.

[Chogokin Jawa]

Yes, a distinctive sign will be added on them if I am doing something, It is important at my eyes to be able to differentiate the things between them.

 

I *REALLY* hope you will make this repro weapons project come true. That would be such a great opportunity for many collectors (including me) to finally get complete LB figures. And an added sign to make the difference between genuine/repro ones is the best solution to avoid to "kill" the market.

 

Keep us updated!!!