140 replies to this topic

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

They are cute when they are still trapped on the runner like that. It looks like they are trying to get away but can't.

[Jamesullivan]

Here are some useless numbers that have been in my head. I would like to share with you them. 45 missing sculpts, 46 with Satan Cross. Plus 2 wrestlers(wrestling ring figures) that are not included on the poster.
 fullM.U.S.C.L.E.poster_mystery_of_non_sculpts_.jpg   347.15K   25 downloads
If you count the missing spaces on the poster you will come up with 27(11+9+7=27)
48-27=21
Add in one side of the poster to get =20
21-20 =1
And one on the top.
This doesn't have to mean anything, it just bugs me that there are these missing spaces and the poster asks (Can you collect them, Fill in the star as you catch each one.) this with a big blue, green, and orange stars in the background.
Perhaps there is only 27 missing rare sculpts to be found that were made in M.U.S.C.L.E. sculpts.
I just like to point out the rarest of instances that could happen. Thats what Indiana Jones would do!

Edited by Jamesullivan, 24 February 2008 - 12:58 PM.

[jkaris]

http://www.littlerub...d...st&p=191457

Comparison pics on the new re-issues versus the originals. Exogini part II?

[89cpe]

i didnt read all the posts so this could have been mentioned. but did anyone take into account human error. like a new guy starts at the factory and puts the wrong mold in or forgets to plug one off. providing the interchangable theory. lets say 1st shift is kinky sculpts, 2nd shift muscle. some new guy on second shift isnt sure so he messes up and puts the wrong molds in, they gone unoticed and make it into packaging, whamo you have your super rares. or someone forgets to block off the moldings for that theory and they go unseen, whamo.... super rares. that is very easy for something like that to happen. i worked in a few factories over the years and seen the people who work there for little money. do you think they really care if something like that happens, and even if they did notice and fix it, too late a few already slipped through.

[Soupie]

Yeah, that has been discussed. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though, and I'm glad you're thinking about it! However, even if this were the case, it doesn't tell us why the "super rares" were excluded from the MUSCLE line in the first place.

It's either (1) there was some type of non-production issue with certain sculpts/characters being included in the MUSCLE line and thus they were purposefully excluded, or (2) there was some type of production/molding problem with certain sculpts (perhaps connected to where they are on the family molds) and thus there were problems with their production.

There may be a 3rd scenario too, I guess.

Edited by Soupie, 21 July 2008 - 11:57 AM.

[89cpe]

i wish it was as easy as picking up the phone and just calling someone and finding out everything. it seems like it could be very easy to get the info needed but clearly its not.

[NamaNiku]

Nice - I think you just may have something there.

[mrjayberry]

Are there any theards I've missed on the 28 packs? Specifically why 28 and not 20,25, or 30. Just wondering what popular consensus was on the orgins.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, not only did 28 packs originate with the Kinkeshi line, but it is curiously interesting to note that figures (muscle or Kinkeshi) were packaged by Tree and Part coordinations that equaled 28 when added together.

Part = The name designated to Kinkeshi figure series, such as "Part 1" or the First set of Kinkeshi figures released.

Tree = A Runner that contains specific figures from a given Kinkeshi Part when injection molded.

Muscle 28 pack Example (not actual info): There are 2 trees of figures from Part 10 that when the total sculpts on these 2 trees were added together they would equal 16 sculpts. They then would pick another 2 trees from say Part 8 that when the number of sculpts on these trees were added together would equal 12. They would then package these 4 trees of figures into a 28 pack.

I don't know how in the world or for what reason though they had tree molds so arranged to where they could equal 28 when added to other trees in the first place.

Soupie will surely give a response that makes more sense than I ever will.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 01 August 2008 - 02:55 PM.

[mrjayberry]

Thats awesome, thanks Universal, I was hoping it was reused packaging and that it might contain a slight clue. If it was just random or if it was a finacial decision (i.e. 28 figs weigh in at 1/2 a pound so you can ship more figures) it wouldn't be much help.

Are all kinkeshi set up so that they can be grouped in groups of 28 in the way you explained? Well at least in the first 21 parts.

[Soupie]

Thats awesome, thanks Universal, I was hoping it was reused packaging and that it might contain a slight clue. If it was just random or if it was a finacial decision (i.e. 28 figs weigh in at 1/2 a pound so you can ship more figures) it wouldn't be much help.

Are all kinkeshi set up so that they can be grouped in groups of 28 in the way you explained? Well at least in the first 21 parts.

Well, since MUSCLE figures were made using the same molds that were used to make Kinkeshi, yes, they were also divided into the same groups/trees for molding.

And... Holy shizznit! (Damn, I have written so much about this that I forget if this has ever been mentioned before...) Since the Part 1-21 Kinkeshi were divided up in the same trees/groups that the MUSCLEs were, maybe dissecting the Kinkeshi 28 packs would give us some more clues as to which trees/groups some of the non-MUSCLE sculpts were on -- including some of the SRs!

Since they had to mix and match trees/groups to equal 28 figures for the 28-packs, I'm guessing they had to use sculpts from different parts, just like they did for the MUSCLE 28-packs. Also, I'm pretty certain non-MUSCLE sculpts were included in the Kinkeshi 28-packs, right? (Something tells my URS already worked on all of this...) Anyhow, breaking down the sculpts in the Kinkeshi 28-packs could conceivably give us some more insight into the non-MUSCLE sculpts.

[Soupie]

Here's the page on Naochin's site with all the Kinkeshi 28-pack info. Obviously, certain sculpts had to be left out to make a perfect 28. However, it looks to me as if they weren't arranged by trees/molds... though I could certainly be wrong. They released a unique 28-pack for each the first 11 Parts. It just looks like they picked 28 sculpts from a Part and released them in the 28-pack for that Part.

URS, you have worked on this before, right?

Anyhow, check out the cool Satan Cross pic on the left of this 28-pack box:

Edited by Soupie, 01 August 2008 - 06:20 PM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Yeah, I have done some dabbling with the keshi 28 packs, but I could never find any pics to help me. And I couldn't really confirm the contents to be legitimately placed in the ones I did find pictures of. For a while I though the biggest clue to helping figure the Part 21 Super Rares out was the Clear Glitter Part 21, 28 pack, set. But I believe all of the Part 21 figures were the same color or something. I'm almost certain to a T though that all of the SR's from Part 21 were in fact on the same tree, and that is why we have found most of them in muscle plastic. So far I think the New Ashuraman is the only one not found right? And the Robinmask's Father sculpt is the only one found not to be confirmed. Still could be wrong, but if only I could find some 100% legitimate 28 pack images we may could find out.

Naochin has his lists, I think I should scour over for a bit to see if I can actually understand it myself. Looks like he has somehow confirmed the contents of each box set.

http://ulala69.hp.in...co.jp/28BOX.htm

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

AWESOME!!! Just awesome what sitting down and scrounging can come up with! <---this emoticon is officially mine now. And so is this one. --->

Ok, so Naochin's site gave me the numbers of the figures in each box, he obviously has confirmed the contents, but his pictures are a bit sub standard. So I picked one 28 pack that was straightforward. Box28 Part 4, which according to Naochin consists of Kinkeshi figures #96 to 123. That's 28 figures. Naochin's pic sucked so I searched Yahoo Japan, and found the perfect auction that had pics of this set. Here is the auction.

http://page15.auctio...ction/t80995931

So what did I find, here is what I found!

These Kinkeshi figures in this box consist of perfect representations of each of these trees, and a very special new 99% confirmed tree, that I think most anyone who knows what I'm babbling about will love.


Part 7 Tree 3
6 figures

Part 7 Tree 4
4 figures

Part 7 Non-Muscles
Cyborg Kid
Dogu Man

Part 8 Tree 1
5 figures

Part 8 Tree 2
4 figures

Part 8 Tree 3
4 figures

Part 8 Non-Muscles
Tall Man
Tail Lamp
Poltergaist

Aside from the 5 Trees that Soupie can confirm from the pics himself by comparing it with all our past information, you will note that 5 of the sculpts in this set are indeed NON-MUSCLE SCULPTS!!! 2 of these sculpts are from Part 7, and 3 are from Part 8. However that is irrelevant, as anyone following the Magenta Atlantis thread will see, Part doesn't mean everything all the time. It is obvious to me that these 5 NM sculpts infact belonged on the same tree. However this leaves 2 more Non-muscle sculpts from Part 8 out in the rain. Which leads me to believe they were part of another tree of Possibly Non-muscle sculpts from a different part.

LALALALALAL!!!Blahlalahlhls!! I don't care if anyone understands me, cause I'm too excited to care!!! It's been too long since I felt this rush.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I just did it again with the Part 5 28 pack. I found an odd discrepancy which makes me doubt my previous posts excitement over a newly confirmed Non-muscle sculpt tree, yet at the same time can confirm it.

Part 4 and Part 5 were the only 2 28 packs I could find pics of so far. Here are the 2 auctions I used as references, I used 2 this time to counter any contradiction I may have had with the discrepancy. The Player Man figure is the Discrepancy by the way.

(Naochin doesn't have Kinkeshi numbers listed for the contents of Part 5)
Naochin's pic was more reliable as well in confirming the contents along with the 2 auctions I used.

http://page17.auctio...ction/v55389926
http://page6.auction...ction/f66294919

Part 9 Tree One
4 figures

Part 9 Tree Two
3 figures ???? Player Man missing?

Part 9 Non-Muscle Sculpts
Black Kamfu
Back Fire
Black Sumohman
Nachiguron

Part 10 Tree One
4 figures

Part 10 Non-Muscle Sculpt
Brocken Jr. ver B

Part 11 Tree One
10 figures

Part 11 Non-Muscle sculpts
Brutal Superman A
Dr. Bonbe

As you can see PlayerMan is oddly missing, when he should be there if he is in Part 9 Tree 2. However, if he was, then there would be 29 figures. One Non-Muscle Sculpt is missing as well, RobinMask ver. b (hoodie) At first I was excited again, for there were many Non-Muscles in this set, and still do believe all of them are on the same tree, however the missing Player man blows my mind. I'm thinking though of the 2 missing Non-Muscle sculpts from the Part 4 28 pack as well. Could they have simply pulled 2 figures from both of these sets to make them a 28 count? and if so, why? Why not just add two extra tray slots and make them 30 packs? I think if I can find images and confirm contents for each of the previous 28 pack sets, then they may hold the answer. My thinking is they had a count that worked at the beginning and were just too lazy to change it up for future packs.

So to recap.

28 Pack Part 4 was nearly perfect with regard to Tree configuration. Only 2 unplaceable Non-Muscle Sculpts make things less than 100%. These 2 could have been part of another Part Tree, or have been Pulled from the 28 Pack due to "not fitting in" with the other figures (they were Queen Kinniku, and Okamaras) and may have been indeed part of the alleged Non-Muscle Sculpt Tree.

28 Pack Part 5 was on a roll to being perfect! But the missing PlayerMan figure blew things out of wack! Along with the missing RobinMask Non-muscle sculpt as well, that makes another 2 figures missing. Could these 2 figures also have been pulled from the 28 pack to make things "fit in"? Possibly, Nachiguron is in this set and doesn't exactly fit in, however he is a smaller figure, and easily fills the Smaller slot in the tray that the other 2 would not have fit in. We have proof that PlayerMan belongs in his predesignated tree, so he must have been pulled for a reason, which further makes it reasonable to believe the Robinmask sculpt was also on a tree with the other Non-Muscles from this group, and was just pulled for lack of space in the set.

Final thoughts. We have 2 new Trees that consist of nothing but Non-Muscle Sculpts. To think otherwise would be inconsistent with the packing methods seen thus far between both Muscles and Kinkeshi. However 3 of those Non-Muscles can neither be confirmed to be on either of the respective trees, or denied possible placement from them. Further study is needed.

Thanks Mrjay for getting my fruit juices flowing. Hope this makes sense to at least Soups.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 01 August 2008 - 09:20 PM.

[Soupie]

Nice work, URS! Like I said awhile ago, I really like the "non-MUSCLEs on their own trees" theory. I think it is a very simple, logical explanation.

As to the Kinkeshi 28-packs, have you come across any trees that are in both the Kinkeshi and MUSCLE 28-packs? I think that might provide a little more comparison info as well. I think it would be interesting to see trees that were in both Kinkeshi 28-packs and in MUSCLE 28-packs, and determine any figs that appeared in one and not the other... kind of like Player Man for the Kinkeshi and the non-MUSCLEs for the MUSCLE.

-----

Here's a little (complex) experiment, URS. Take a look at MUSCLE Part One, Part Two and Part Three.

First a quick re-cap of the graphic boxes:

Example:



(1) Each individual box (see above) represents a tree within a Part. At the bottom of the box, you can see which Part the tree belongs to, followed by which tree it is in the Part, and then the next line tells you which tree it is overall. So, in our example above, we see that this tree belongs to Part One, is the first tree in Part One, and is the first tree out of all the trees.

(2) The bottom row of colored boxes represents all the MUSCLE colors. The colored rows above that first bottom row represent the sculpts in that tree. In our example above, we see that Tree One has 9 sculpts in it. Since this tree was not made in magenta and orange, those color boxes are left white.

(3) The gray row of boxes at the top represents the non-MUSCLE sculpt. (I'm not certain it belongs with this tree, however. In fact, that is precisely what URS and I are trying to determine.)

Part One



Part One NMS:



Part Two



Part Two NMS:



Part Three (I fixed the Atlantis sculpt to show that it does indeed exist in magenta.)



Part Three NMS:



URS, remember how since Part One had two trees, one of 9 sculpts and one of 10 sculpts, that we figured the Non-MUSCLE sculpt belonged to the tree of 9 sculpts. If it did, this would give us two trees of 10, which makes sense. (We also said that those two trees of ten, were actually maybe 4 trees of five -- just all made in the same color so it only looked like two trees of 10. I was hoping the Kinkeshi 28-packs would confirm which was the right interpretation.)

Anyhow, if your "non-MUSCLE on same tree" theory is correct, I'm thinking all the Non-MUSCLEs from these first three Parts are on the same tree! Maybe they had to scratch Broken for the Nazi factor and therefore had to scratch the other four NMS in Parts 2 and 3. (However, if that's the case, are neat grouping of Part One into two trees of 10 is ruined... Know what I mean?)

So if these sculpts are in one tree:



And if we know that Atlantis actually belongs with Part Two, Tree One... what does this do to our tree configurations? Is there any (new) way to make sense of Part One having a tree of 9 and 10, instead of two trees of 10? How about Part Two, now that we know Atlantis is part of it? Actually, if we assume that none of the NMS belong on the already established trees in Part 2, the addition of the Atlantis figure actually balances Part Two! By adding Atlantis to Part 2, we get two nice trees of 9. Also, by removing Atlantis from Part 3, we are then left with two trees of 5. Interestingly, if we group all the NMS together, they also give us a tree of 5. The only monkey wrench is Part One, which is left with a tree of 9 and a tree of 10. I'm not saying that Bandai couldn't have chosen to do it this way, but it still seems odd.

(I wish there was an easy way to represent the trees in a graphical form, but the little grid boxes are the best I can do.)

Edited by Soupie, 02 August 2008 - 07:27 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

My easiest explanation is that Part one is actually 2 trees, one with 4 sculpts the other with 5, and they were molded in color in such a way that we cannot tell them apart. I havn't done the 28 box set Part 1 yet, But I will if and when I can find a clear visible picture of it's contents to compare with Noachin's number information. I could probably do it anyway, but it makes more sense to me if I have an available visible representation.

I like where all this is going though. It may not reveal much, but it gives us a better idea of how so many figures can easily be left out of a line.

[matthewf1tz]

I found this and got really excited:

 ninijiji65_img600x450_1237303682kftsb635644.jpg   28.81K   21 downloads

but.....unfortunately it's a re-issue from the 29th Anniversary DVD Box Set.

I thought posting it here would avoid future confusion and also give this interesting thread a bump

[gilgar]

I found this and got really excited:

 ninijiji65_img600x450_1237303682kftsb635644.jpg   28.81K   21 downloads

but.....unfortunately it's a re-issue from the 29th Anniversary DVD Box Set.

I thought posting it here would avoid future confusion and also give this interesting thread a bump

I did the same thing a couple of days ago damn re-issues!!! They've made it where I'm afraid to buy some of the expensive pieces like the part 29 2 piece SC

So do you think the original SC had his legs attached like this? I don't recall ever seeing one attached, has anyone?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Nope, it's still up in the air, and still a possibility that his legs were never attached to the figure itself, but on it's own part of the production runner. Probably why SC is so common, and his legs were so easily discarded by the factory.

[TheOrgg]

So you're saying that the trees would've been sent down an assembly line and some poor schmuck's job all day would be to pull of, say, junkman in whatever color was being produced that month, and dropping both copies into the bin beside them? (or some variation of this)

[Soupie]

Were the bins only used with MUSCLE? If the bins were used for both Kinkeshi and MUSCLE, then the small part/bin issue doesn't seem likely as Kinkeshi had small part figures.

[Soupie]

Orgg: Yeah, I guess. I don't really know exactly how they would do it.

Soupie: The guy said bins would be used for a toy like MUSCLE. Because of the number of figures and some being exclusive to the 29-pack, you'd need a system to package them. He felt pretty confident that bins would be used.

Yes, but they had 28-packs for Kinkeshi as well. So what I'm saying is, unless they just started using bins when they made MUSCLE 28-packs, then because they used small-parted figures successfully with Kinkeshi, then they should have had a system in place to use them successfully with MUSCLE.

Why use a bin with MUSCLE and not with Kinkeshi? If we could prove that they used bins with MUSCLE but not with Kinkeshi, than I'd say your "theory" is a good one.

Edited by Soupie, 25 March 2009 - 09:37 AM.