2319 replies to this topic

[Jenny]

Super Phoenix has the power of a chojin god within him. This automatically makes Super Phoenix top tier since the chojin gods are the highest beings in the Kinnikuman universe. I'm not sure who would win those match ups, though.

This automatically makes Super Phoenix top tier

Super Phoenix top tier

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yeah, no.

[Tubba]

Super Phoenix has a large arsenal of techniques and skills, so he's a formidable contender no matter how you look at it. And I know this isn't like DB, for I've even stated before that chojin power levels are not accurate indicators of who's stronger than who. I just disagreed with you when you said, "Neptune King and Akuma Shogun could probably easily wipe the floor with Phoenix". In shonen manga, final antagonists are never weaklings.

Actually, it's mostly his team that's powerful (Especially Mammothman). And he's the favourite of the gods.

There is a major problem with that: he still kept his Neptune Mask! My guess: he really can't go back to being Kenkaman due to everything he did as Neptuneman so he's sort of stuck with this ID for the arc. (besides, he was wearing the Neptune Mask since he first appeared as a shadowy figure)

And yeah...having Choujin God powers means nothing: it may just boost your power level but if you don't have techniques or skills, you still suck. This isn't like DB or something where higher power level = instant victory; it's just something to provide an extra kick to your techniques.

I wonder where he picked up the Neptune Mask. Didn't it break from the Muscle Docking?

[SoldierAtaru]

Super Phoenix has a large arsenal of techniques and skills, so he's a formidable contender no matter how you look at it. And I know this isn't like DB, for I've even stated before that chojin power levels are not accurate indicators of who's stronger than who. I just disagreed with you when you said, "Neptune King and Akuma Shogun could probably easily wipe the floor with Phoenix". In shonen manga, final antagonists are never weaklings.

It's not the same as it was then. Phoenix is the final villain only because he's the final enemy that Suguru has to face. That has nothing to do with him being uber or powerful, just that he was in the right place at the right time. He was actually nearly wiped out several times in Ataru's fight with him (need I remention Napalm Stretch prior to Mammothman's fan maneuver) and has uber-powerful teammates (Mammothman is a secret genius wearing the disguise of a bruiser, Samson Teacher was essentially the God of Intelligence's tool due to regaining his legs, Prisman has a weapon even Phoenix fears in the Capillaria Rays and Omegaman is a Perfect Choujin who can possess ghosts in his Oni no Te...well so far). Yeah, Phoenix can put it up but he probably could have problems with the big boys...heck, I even remember a Muscle Fight footage where Akuma Shogun could easily change his hardness and slip out of Muscle Revenger! All in all, Choujin Strength means nothing about whether someone is truly powerful: it's just a number that adds kick to the techniques and abilities a Choujin has already mastered.

[SoldierAtaru]

Chp. 358: Yeah it's obvious now: Geronimo's tribe = the "Generic Indian People who Sort of are Native Americans But Exhibit Traits from All of Them": http://mangahelpers..../releases/20180
Chp. 359: Remote controlled teeth = awesome: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20181
Chp. 360: Can someone please revoke the license from Planet Kinniku 8th Choujin Hospital?: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20182

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

@Jenny - It would be nice if you actually gave a reason why you disagree with my stance. If you're not going to bother contributing to the discussion, then don't post.

It's not the same as it was then. Phoenix is the final villain only because he's the final enemy that Suguru has to face. That has nothing to do with him being uber or powerful, just that he was in the right place at the right time. He was actually nearly wiped out several times in Ataru's fight with him (need I remention Napalm Stretch prior to Mammothman's fan maneuver) and has uber-powerful teammates (Mammothman is a secret genius wearing the disguise of a bruiser, Samson Teacher was essentially the God of Intelligence's tool due to regaining his legs, Prisman has a weapon even Phoenix fears in the Capillaria Rays and Omegaman is a Perfect Choujin who can possess ghosts in his Oni no Te...well so far). Yeah, Phoenix can put it up but he probably could have problems with the big boys...heck, I even remember a Muscle Fight footage where Akuma Shogun could easily change his hardness and slip out of Muscle Revenger! All in all, Choujin Strength means nothing about whether someone is truly powerful: it's just a number that adds kick to the techniques and abilities a Choujin has already mastered.

You could say the same thing about final villains in other shonen manga. And the rest of your post doesn't really prove me wrong. All of the big boys in this series encountered their share of problems, so it's ridiculous to single out Super Phoenix all the time. I can understand if you don't like a character because they don't appeal to you, but give them credit where it's due.

[SoldierAtaru]

You could say the same thing about final villains in other shonen manga. And the rest of your post doesn't really prove me wrong. All of the big boys in this series encountered their share of problems, so it's ridiculous to single out Super Phoenix all the time. I can understand if you don't like a character because they don't appeal to you, but give them credit where it's due.

OK I admit: every final villain from Buffaloman on has a trick as to why they're so uber and powerful and each trick has a weakness.

Buffaloman: possessed by Satan
Goldman: using the Devil Knights as an artificial body, preventing him from having a real one that can get hurt.
Neptune King: manipulating the Apollon Window near the stadium to gain Magnet Power and Apollon Power
Phoenix: being possessed by a Choujin God who holds 100 Million Choujin Strength

But it still doesn't excuse me regarding Phoenix because he just never showed himself as a threat. Yeah he had Muscle Revenger but, like every technique, it has a weakness that can be exploited. Meanwhile, even with his skill and threat, Phoenix has shown many moments of weakness both in the ring and out of it. Whenever he seems like he's ready to finally go down, something cheap or ridiculous happens to allow for him to get back up. He may be possessed by an Evil God, but he just feels like he's less evil and more just a jerk with superpowers. The real evil are the Choujin Gods themselves who tried to manipulate everyone so one of them could have a puppet gain the throne they can control to cause chaos and destruction.

Edited by SoldierAtaru, 24 February 2010 - 04:28 AM.

[Jenny]

@Jenny - It would be nice if you actually gave a reason why you disagree with my stance. If you're not going to bother contributing to the discussion, then don't post.

Yeah, should've done that from the start, my bad sorry. I was just so flabbergasted at the idea that people still believe Phoenix is superior to Shogun. Well lets see, where to start. Just the whole concept of Phoenix is bad enough. Nothing irritates me more then a villian that pulls the wangst card. He acts like because of his poor poor past he can be the biggest douche ever, it drives me nuts and no-one ever does anything about it.

Next we got his strength. Shogun himself WAS a god, and Neptune King was naturally strong due to being a Perfect Choujin. Phoenix? Phoneix was set up as "intelligence" or whatever, but in the end it was the God of Intelligence himself that came off as the intelligent one. Unlike the other characters, Phoenix didn't even set up his own team, that was all thanks to the God of Intelligence again.

Not to mention his team, like people before me have mentioned, his team were way more interesting, powerful and completely overshadowed him, making the final match of the series seem like a joke compared to the previous ones.

They just hyped Phoenix up so much, and in the end it was just fell flat on its face. Even with all the other God's powers thrown onto him. (so why didn't they do that with Mariposa or Zebra, since the main object of the God's plan was taking out Kinnikuman rather this whole fighting each other shtick, and those two teams were fighting Kin's team previously.)

[Tubba]

Chp. 358: Yeah it's obvious now: Geronimo's tribe = the "Generic Indian People who Sort of are Native Americans But Exhibit Traits from All of Them": http://mangahelpers..../releases/20180

I thought he was Cherokee. Wasn't Geronimo the name of the last Cherokee who made resistance against the colonialists or something?

EDIT: Yeah, Nazi Germany... Also nevermind, I read your elaboration on it.

and Neptune King was naturally strong due to being a Perfect Choujin.

Not only that - Remember that Neptune King was a legendary chojin from prehistory who was so powerful that he got bored of fighting and like Neptuneman jumped into the Thames.

Edited by Tubba, 24 February 2010 - 08:43 AM.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

@SoldierAtaru - The thing is, from a story telling perspective, it would be very boring and dull if Super Phoenix completely dominated his opponents in the ring. If he never came close to losing on more than one occasion, there would virtually be no suspense. And to be fair, the Scramble for the Throne arc is by far the longest in this series, so it does make sense that we would see Super Phoenix get his butt kicked more often than the final villains who preceded him.

@Jenny - It's no problem. I accept your apology. Like I said before though, I'm not sure if Super Phoenix can beat Akuma Shogun or Neptune King. It's a really tough call, I feel. As for the class of a chojin, there came a point where that differentiation didn't even matter anymore. The Hell's Missionaries (both of whom are perfect chojin) lost to the Machineguns (both of whom are inferior justice chojin). Kinnikuman defeated Omegaman (another perfect chojin) without his burning inner strength.

[Matto]

They just hyped Phoenix up so much, and in the end it was just fell flat on its face.

Haha, I remember how 4kids hyped up the new season back when they were airing the Poison Six Pack episodes. It was ROFLcoptors, but ironically it WORKED.

Shogun himself WAS a god. Phoenix? 1980s Sasuke.

Fixed for honesty.

[SoldierAtaru]

@SoldierAtaru - The thing is, from a story telling perspective, it would be very boring and dull if Super Phoenix completely dominated his opponents in the ring. If he never came close to losing on more than one occasion, there would virtually be no suspense. And to be fair, the Scramble for the Throne arc is by far the longest in this series, so it does make sense that we would see Super Phoenix get his butt kicked more often than the final villains who preceded him.

Most of Phoenix's threat was less himself and more the manipulations he pulled off. Yes, he was a tough bastard, but he still threw in a lot of nonsense like all the special rings (yeah...and not once did Suguru's side even get one ring for the advantage...I still think Harabote was bribed or had that anti-Suguru grudge) and just seemed to get every break in the book. Heck, even I'm still super-confused about how much everything, and I mean everything, can go according to some "non-existent plan" by either Phoenix himself or the God of Intelligence. Besides, the other Gods really did a crummy job choosing Choujin themselves: Flight had to pick the one guy that screwed Robin as a kid, Strength got a muscle-bound doofus, Techniques got some guy who just magically knew one of the Three Legendary Techniques of the Kinniku Clan (to the point of literally changing the display with them so Muscle Inferno can work) and Brutality just happened to face Ataru's wrath the moment he finally decided to do something.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Most of Phoenix's threat was less himself and more the manipulations he pulled off. Yes, he was a tough bastard, but he still threw in a lot of nonsense like all the special rings (yeah...and not once did Suguru's side even get one ring for the advantage...I still think Harabote was bribed or had that anti-Suguru grudge) and just seemed to get every break in the book.

True. His manipulative and scheming nature does fit in with his whole "intelligence" gimmick, after all.

Speaking of Super Phoenix, I've always found it strange how we never hear from him or see him again in Nisei. With his smarts, he would've been quite a good teacher at the Hercules Factory.

[SoldierAtaru]

True. His manipulative and scheming nature does fit in with his whole "intelligence" gimmick, after all.

It's hard to say "smart" and "manipulative" work together but I get you.

Chp. 361: When Bibimba is more manly than Suguru, something is definitely wrong: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20216
Chp. 362: Mammothman is right: if you want to show an evil scheme...don't talk, do it!: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20219

[kinnikumanbigbody]

It's hard to say "smart" and "manipulative" work together but I get you.

Chp. 361: When Bibimba is more manly than Suguru, something is definitely wrong: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20216
Chp. 362: Mammothman is right: if you want to show an evil scheme...don't talk, do it!: http://mangahelpers..../releases/20219

i put a music track for this match

[Tubba]

About the 152 diagram, Kinnikuman lost to Prisman? Does "Frying Ashuraman's cloth" count as "Beating Kinnikuman"?

Also nitpick on 158 and 159: You missed Kinnikuman's "Matte!" on 158 and on 159 box 2 he's saying "za samurai", The Samurai, not "sa-samurai!"


I like how the five pages are all conveniently placed next to eachother.

Edited by Tubba, 25 February 2010 - 09:11 AM.

[Molanphy]

Is Geronimo a zumbie? Isn't he dead?

Edited by Molanphy, 25 February 2010 - 10:06 AM.

[Prometheus13]

Is Geronimo a zumbie? Isn't he dead?

No, he hasn't died recently.

[SoldierAtaru]

About the 152 diagram, Kinnikuman lost to Prisman? Does "Frying Ashuraman's cloth" count as "Beating Kinnikuman"?

Also nitpick on 158 and 159: You missed Kinnikuman's "Matte!" on 158 and on 159 box 2 he's saying "za samurai", The Samurai, not "sa-samurai!"

Updated: the 158 one had so little dialogue that it slipped...and I missed the "The" in 159 even if it's the first time they suddenly start calling him "The Samurai" as opposed to "Samurai-themed Choujin". (my guess: to differentiate from "The Ninja")

[Molanphy]

No, he hasn't died recently.

*Reads the chapter again*

Yeah you're right, he hasn't died

[SoldierAtaru]

*Reads the chapter again*

Yeah you're right, he hasn't died

No but he has been eliminated from all history...which is like death...only stupider

[KinnikuG]

Chapter 313 - http://www.mediafire.com/?znnyjjgjzrm

I really enjoyed this chapter, to the point where this made the match for me. I was particularly fond of Bikeman's messed up speech pattern, and the spooky look under his helmet.

I do find myself wondering why we don't ever see any other really amazing Machine Choujins like him and Warsman, if they are supposed to be naturally more powerful than your average Choujin.

[Tubba]

It occured to me, the setup with the strings being connected to the corner are like... Perfect for Super Phoenix' Muscle Revenger.

[SoldierAtaru]

Chapter 313 - http://www.mediafire.com/?znnyjjgjzrm

I really enjoyed this chapter, to the point where this made the match for me. I was particularly fond of Bikeman's messed up speech pattern, and the spooky look under his helmet.

I do find myself wondering why we don't ever see any other really amazing Machine Choujins like him and Warsman, if they are supposed to be naturally more powerful than your average Choujin.

I guess we see less Machine Choujin similar to why we don't have more "Choujin from space": sort of probably harder to relate to or just harder to come up with compared to flesh-and-blood Choujin from Earth or the Kinniku Clan. And yeah...Bikeman is the type that grows on you.

[Tubba]

They should make more Chojin in the spirit of Parthenon.


"Eiffel Tower"
"Cheops Pyramid"
"Empire State Building"
"Pantheon"

[kinnikumanbigbody]

They should make more Chojin in the spirit of Parthenon.


"Eiffel Tower"
"Cheops Pyramid"
"Empire State Building"
"Pantheon"

colosseum.