385 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

If this is consistent with all Non-MUSCLE sculpt reissues (which I'm betting it is) a major piece of the Non-MUSCLE sculpt/Super Rare puzzle has just been put into place.

(Some restating...)

There are several theories about why the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were not made into MUSCLEs:

1) Small parts
2) Offensive sculpts
3) Cost
4) Concern about introducing too many figures
5) Broken molds

There are a couple reasons why I think the Non-MUSCLE sculpts are a result of broken molds:

1) The fact that the reissued Kinkeshi set consisting of sculpts from parts 1-21 released in Japan in the 90's is missing the same sculpts that the MUSCLE line is missing

2) TGB has said that broken/spent molds are not uncommon

3) The apparant randomness of Non-MUSCLE sculpts in regards to which parts are missing sculpts and the number missing (sometimes 0, sometimes 4-5).

4) The fact that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts (with the exception of Brocken sculpts and multi-part sculpts) seem no different than MUSCLE sculpts

5) The fact that Non-Poster MUSCLEs (SRs) -- especially Satan Cross -- have been found in such varying amounts.

6) The fact that the Non-Poster MUSCLEs are only found in Flesh. (The molds broke waaay before colored MUSCLEs were being produced, but in a few cases with sculpts between 15-21 while Flesh MUSCLEs were still being produced.)

7) And, most convincingly, the fact the Non-MUSCLE sculpts reissued in the 90's appear to have been made from existing mass-produced figures, indicating that their original molds were not available (which means they were likely damaged).

So why were all part 15-21 sculpts able to be mass produced as kinkeshi but not MUSCLEs even though they were produced in the same year...

The solution might be as simple as follows: Kinkeshi from parts 15-21 were made in the same year as Flesh MUSCLEs from parts 15-21, but not at the same time.

In fact, now that I think about it, it seems unrealistic to think that Bandai would use the molds to make a batch of Kinkeshi, then a batch of MUSCLEs, then a batch of Kinkeshi, etc... They may have simply pumped out several months worth of Kinkeshi (most likely Kinkeshi took priority over MUSCLE) and then used the molds to pump out MUSCLE figures.

Unfortunately, just as molds from parts 1-14 seem to have become damaged, it appears that several molds from parts 15-21 either were broken before MUSCLE production began or -- in the case of the SRs and particularly Satan Cross -- broke while MUSCLEs were being produced.

[However, the way I describe MUSCLE parts 15-21 being made is no different than the ways 1-14 would have been made (i.e. after Kinkeshi). Thus, it doesn't really explain why some Non-Poster sculpts have been found from those parts. Even so, I am convinced the fact that all Non-Poster MUSCLEs come from parts 15-21 is significant...]

As for the poster... the poster may have simply been one of the last items to be made. In fact, the poster may have been made after MUSCLEs were produced. In other words, once Bandai/Mattel knew for certain which figures would be available, they made the poster. (Keep in mind the poster on 28-packs showing more than 233 figures.)

Edited by Soupie, 30 April 2006 - 06:19 AM.

[Soupie]

[However, the way I describe MUSCLE parts 15-21 being made is no different than the ways 1-14 would have been made (i.e. after Kinkeshi). Thus, it doesn't really explain why some Non-Poster sculpts have been found from those parts. Even so, I am convinced the fact that all Non-Poster MUSCLEs come from parts 15-21 is significant...]

Whether you believe MUSCLE Super Rares will be found from parts 1-21 or only parts 15-21 (as I do), however, the Super Rare mystery appears to be solved.

Because Super Rares are Non-MUSCLE sculpts, I've always believed that if we could discover why the Non-MUSCLE sculpts were not made, we'd gain a powerful insight into why we have found Non-Poster MUSCLEs...

As far as I'm concerned, I think all the evidence points to the Super Rares being a result of a full production of certain sculpts either having not begun or having been cut short by a damaged mold.

As far as I'm concerned, I think all the evidence points to the Super Rares being a result of a full production having been cut short by a damaged mold, while the Non-MUSCLE sculpts are a result of production having not begun due to a damaged mold.

Edited by Soupie, 30 April 2006 - 07:48 AM.

[matthewf1tz]

Is the Geronimo sculpt exactly the same size in both cases? It crossed my mind as I was looking at Naochin's Kinkeshi Archives here:

Different sizes

In any case, it's a brilliant idea, I think. A simple proof of this theory would be to see if the re-issued, Non-MUSCLE sculpts are indeed smaller.

glad you liked my thinking Soupie!

so a slim possibility then as to why some figures are only found as Super-rares if the moulds broke after production started but before the poster was designed?

so I could be right about it all and the size difference points in this direction as I said it might! I've been dying to find out if the re-issues were smaller as I thought - cool....thanks for checking out on my idea Jkaris!

[Soupie]

so I could be right about it all and the size difference points in this direction as I said it might! I've been dying to find out if the re-issues were smaller as I thought - cool....thanks for checking out on my idea Jkaris!

Don't worry, matthewf1tz! No one's trying to steal your thunder... but understand that the idea that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts and the SRs have a connection to damaged molds is an old one.

What really seems to have sealed the deal is Arforbes' discovery of the Kinkeshi string, the connection to MUSCLEs, URS's discovery of trees, Jkaris pointing out the 1-21 reissues, the odd fact that they are also missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts, the odd fact that the painted reissues do have Non-MUSCLE sculpts, the odd fact that random sculpts seems to be missing from otherwise symmetrical parts/trees, which lead to me to say:

It's very tempting to say that one of the molds must have been damaged. However, part 13, which consists of 12 kinnikuman sculpts, is missing one effing sculpt -- a perfectly cool Geronimo sculpt.

Were the Re-issued figured made of a new plastic? Is there any chance that the re-issued figures were simply left-over kinkeshi? If so, there would be the possibility that the Non-MUSCLE sculpt molds were indeed broken.

Your question as to whether the reissued Geronimo sculpt was the same size as the original, and your pointing out the figures on Naochin's site was certainly key, but it was based on years of speculation about the SR's and the ring figures.

Don't worry about credit; There are many people who contributed; One only needs read this thread to realize your great contribution!

[matthewf1tz]

Don't worry, matthewf1tz! No one's trying to steal your thunder... but understand that the idea that the Non-MUSCLE sculpts and the SRs have a connection to damaged molds is an old one.

Don't worry about credit; There are many people who contributed; One only needs read this thread to realize your great contribution!

that's cool - I know that broken molds is not an idea that I came up with and your work and all the others work/ideas (in particular with the trees and on the colour archive) it's just I was excited that I may have thought of something that would help prove it and have been checking back a few times a day since hoping it was the case!

I wouldn't have even thought about checking for size difference without your/URS/etc tree work and you/Jkaris linking this with the reissues!

Sorry if my post came across as 'glory-hunting'!!!! just got a bit excited.....whoops

Edited by matthewf1tz, 30 April 2006 - 11:22 AM.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Well, seeing as parts 1-14 had already been Massed produced as kinkeshi, before Muscle came along, it is highly reasonable that the non-muscle molds were damaged prior to Muscles birth. However as Soupie says, parts 15-21 were being made as both Muscles and kinkeshi's. It's reasonable to think that the molds were under and extra amount of stress, and that certain sculpts broke during production. So only a few Non-muscles made it during the first muscle run. If I'm correct the Non-muscle sculpts from parts 15-21 are quite difficult to get as Kinkeshi as well. Although they are more abundant than their Muscle counterparts, which would go along with what was said about Kinkeshis coming first. These Non-muscle sculpts probably didn't break till they were being made into muscles. Also, it's possible that the difference in stiffness of plastics could have broke the Kinkeshi molds. Some of the Non-Muscle sculpt molds may have been too thin to handle the hard rubber that muscles were made of. This may explain the poster pic on the 28 packs having more than 233.

Now there is a new problem. Alex's string find presents two of each figure on a tree. So it is highly likely that all trees were made with two of each figure. So does it make sense that both Non-Muscle figure molds on a tree would break at the same time? I think it's possible. If both mold slots had the same exact characteristics inside and out, they may have both worn down at about the same time. However, What about SC? Are we to believe that he just lasted a little longer? Or did he never break?

Also I can't wait till someone finds a Satan Cross Back Half 4 pack. I just hope it's me and I get it for a dollar at a yard sale! Cause with all these guys around here with $1000 bills flying out their bums, no one else will ever get a super rare!

[jkaris]

Well, I hate to dampen your theories, but I just went through all the diferent types of re-issues, and this is what I found:

1998:
Yutaka makes their first series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh).
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the standard indented YSNT or YSNT B
The hidden figure is a flesh re-issue, same as above.

1999:
Yutaka makes their 2nd series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh).
Size is the smaller than their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the raised YST Y (the last Y being for Yutaka).
Hidden figure is a stubby, same as above....
However, some of the hidden figures are leftover hiddens from the 1st series, and thus are normal.

Yutaka makes their 3rd series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh or gold).
Size is the smaller than their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the raised YST Y (the last Y being for Yutaka).
Hidden figure is a stubby, same as above.

Banpresto make re-issue 3 packs consisting of MUSCLE sculpt figures and Part 91-2 re-issues.
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the standard indented YSNT or YSNT B

Bandai (the original kinkeshi maker) puts out their re-issue set:
http://store.kinniku...tems.cfm?id=137
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the raised YSNT B

-------------------------------------------------------

So,

While this doesn't rule out the broken super rare mold theory, it does explain where the stubbies came from.

The Bandai and Banpresto fgures were made in Japan, while the Yutaka series were made in China. More likely, Yutaka had Bandai make their frst series figures for them, but then decided to remold te figures for the 2nd and 3rd series. Maybe it was cheaper to do it themsleves.

Anyways, here is some more info for you to chew on.

Also, I attached a pic of the Yutaka figures, Series 1-3, left to right. You may want to tree them out and see where they fall.

You'll want to note that series 1 has no non-Muscle scultps, while s.2 has 4, and s.3 has 3. However, the Kinnikuman Suguru in the foreground of the s.3 backing is from the 91-2 series that Banpresto was in the process of re-issuing at the same time. So, that leads further credence to the thepry that Yutaka remolded the stubbies themselves for some reason other than a broken mold.

Attached Files

•  painted_kin.jpg   253.83K   43 downloads

[Soupie]

Don't worry about credit; There are many people who contributed; One only needs read this thread to realize your great contribution!

Hey, I was being sincere! Your thought that the reissued Geronimo sculpt might be smaller than the original sculpt was huge!

If I'm correct the Non-muscle sculpts from parts 15-21 are quite difficult to get as Kinkeshi as well.

Yes, I was wondering about this as well! Actually, I was wondering if the MUSCLE SR sculpts were also hard to get as kinkeshi... meaning that the broken molds affected Kinkeshi production as well.

In fact, this might impact all Kinkeshi sculpts that were Non-MUSCLE sculpts. In other words, if the mold broke during production of Kinkeshi 1-14, those sculpts might be harder to find as Kinkeshi.

However as Soupie says, parts 15-21 were being made as both Muscles and kinkeshi's. It's reasonable to think that the molds were under and extra amount of stress, and that certain sculpts broke during production.

Well, I'm also assuming that molds from parts 1-14 broke during production of Kinkeshi...

What I'm saying is that the simple fact of using the molds -- whether for Kinkeshi or MUSCLEs -- causes them to eventually break.

I'm thinking that the Non-MUSCLE molds from parts 1-14 were already broken before MUSCLE production began, and some Non-MUSCLE molds from 15-21 were already broken, but some were not broken, but did eventually break during MUSCLE producation. You're guessing that different plastic may be the culprit.

My thought is that a lower production of Kinkeshi parts 15-21 ensured all the molds did not break, but since they had been used, after only a little use for MUSCLE production, some did break...

Another thought:

As Naochin says in my quote above, and as you point out, there seem to have been at least two molds for each sculpt!

Now I'm thinking about the colored MUSCLEs again and the fact that the colors come in 4, 5, 6, and 7. Any connection between this and trees having two of each mold?

How about one broken mold and color rarity? Anything?

What happens if only one of the molds break? Does this mean the other mold is offline as well? Bandai made two molds so as to pump out enough figures, not necessarily to insure that they have a backup mold.

(It may be that Naochin is/was unaware of the Kinkeshi strings.)

In other words, if one mold broke, maybe they both had to be removed from a tree. Or, as you say, maybe they mostly broke/wore down at the same time.

However, What about SC? Are we to believe that he just lasted a little longer? Or did he never break?

I think he absolutely lasted longer, a lot longer. I also think SHA lasted longer than BHS, and BHS, lasted longer than DE, DM, and the new guy...

[jkaris]

As far as the non-MUSCLE sculpt figuresfrom Parts 1-20 being uncommon...
They are just as common as their muscle sculpt counterparts. And there are some parts containing MUSCLE sculpt figures that command a premium in japan, but don't here. Like the MUSCLE sculpt figures from part 21. They are rare over there and common here. Part 18 and part 19 figures command a premium in japan as well, even though they are common as MUSCLE sculpts.

[Soupie]

1998:
Yutaka makes their first series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh).
Size is the same as their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the standard indented YSNT or YSNT B
The hidden figure is a flesh re-issue, same as above.

1999:
Yutaka makes their 2nd series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh).
Size is the smaller than their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the raised YST Y (the last Y being for Yutaka).
Hidden figure is a stubby, same as above....
However, some of the hidden figures are leftover hiddens from the 1st series, and thus are normal.

Yutaka makes their 3rd series painted 2 packs, with a mysterious hidden figure (flesh or gold).
Size is the smaller than their kinkeshi or MUSCLE counterparts.
Trademark is the raised YST Y (the last Y being for Yutaka).
Hidden figure is a stubby, same as above.

So the only Non-MUSCLE sculpts made after 1987 come from Yutaka's series 2 and 3 reissues?

And are all the figures smaller, or just the Non-MUSCLE sculpts?

Either way, they were probaby made from molds created from mass produced figures. If this is the case, we would expect Non-MUSCLE sculpts to appear!

The fact that the figures are the normal size in series one means they were made by Bandai... and since Bandai used the original molds, there are no Non-MUSCLE sculpts!

[jkaris]

So the only Non-MUSCLE sculpts made after 1987 come from Yutaka's series 2 and 3 reissues?

For practical purposes, yes. Although Banpresto was making the 91-2 reissues that year too. But those are all 1991 molds.

And are all the figures smaller, or just the Non-MUSCLE sculpts?

All of them.

The fact that the figures are the normal size in series one means they were made by Bandai... and since Bandai used the original molds, there are no Non-MUSCLE sculpts!

Or.... out of the hundreds of figures, they chose a handful, that just so happened to not include non-MUSCLE sculpts. You can't really assess a broken mold by a 4%-5% sample. I think they just picked a handful of the most popular characters and re-did them to test the waters.

If your theory of certain figures' molds going bad were correct, then you would have a discrepancy in the availability of the kinkeshi-only versions vs. MUSCLE sculpts, or at the very least, evidence of a deteriorating mold (slightly malformed figures). In all my years of buying and selling kinkeshi, I have never seen any evidence of this. I spent almost $30,000 on kinkeshi and kinnikuman stock for the store last year, and the non-MUSCLE scultps are just as plentiful as the MUSCLE sculpts.

The only difference seems to be that the higher series figures are rarer and thus more expensive. But even this isn't always the case. As far as price and rarity, I would rate them as such:

High $$$
Part 91-3
Part 30
Part 29 (non-reissue)
Part 27
Part 21

Medium $$$
Part 28
Part 26
Part 91-1
Part 25
Part 24
Part 19
Part 23
Part 22
Part 20
Part 18

Low $$$
Part 91-2
Part 17 and down.

According to Bandai, they no longer have the molds. They are either destroyed, worn out (they have a stated life of 10 years) or elsewhere. Toei has all toy rights to G1 currently.

[Soupie]

Or.... out of the hundreds of figures, they chose a handful, that just so happened to not include non-MUSCLE sculpts. You can't really assess a broken mold by a 4%-5% sample. I think they just picked a handful of the most popular characters and re-did them to test the waters.

I agree, but I'm basing the assumption on more than just series one painted reissues. Don't forget about this reissue set: Kinkeshi 1-21. It also was made by Bandai and is mysteriously missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

We have the MUSCLE toyline missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.
The 1-21 reissue set made by Bandai missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.
The first reissue painted set made by Bandai without Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

Three is a pretty good number!

I see somewhat of a pattern here. It seems that sometime around 1985-1987, Bandai stopped producing Non-MUSCLE sculpt figures. Personally, I think the most logical reason is that the molds became useless.

(It also happens to neatly explain the Non-Poster figures.)

By the way, of the painted reissued series, as I expected, rather than hand pick sculpts, they simple reissued a tree. To be specific, series one is made up of an entire tree from kinnikuman part one. Kinnikuman part one has two trees and 20 sculpts. Part one also has 1 Non-MUSCLE sculpt, thus for MUSCLEs the part divides up into a tree of 9 (tree one) and a tree of ten (tree two).

Of course, as Kinkeshi, each tree would have consisted of 10 sculpts. So which tree did Bandai choose to make into series one of the painted reissues? You guessed it, the tree that is all MUSCLE sculpts.

Perhaps it is only coincidence that MUSCLEs, 1-21 reissues, and now this painted series one reissues are all without Non-MUSCLE sculpts, but I doubt it.

As I said, the most likely explanation is damaged molds.

As for the other two series of painted figures, it is also as I figured, the figures appear to be from a smattering of parts: 2, 3, 5, 13, etc.

This indicates, as you said Jkaris, that Bandai did not make them, because they were obviously made from mass produced figures and do not match up with kinnikuman trees.

As for Kinkeshi rarity, deformities, etc. Considering the MUSCLE toyline, SRs in Flesh, reissues missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts, etc., etc. I think we have plenty of data to support the idea that kinkeshi molds sometimes went bad.

Are there possibly any other kinkeshi sets missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts that could be analyzed with the trees?

[Soupie]

The idea of molds being damaged or becoming damaged while MUSCLEs were produced explains so much:

1) Why there are Non-MUSCLE sculpts
2) Why there are Super Rare MUSCLEs
3) Why the Non-MUSCLE sculpts appear to come from random parts
4) Why the Super Rare MUSCLEs are only found in Flesh
5) Why the Bandai-produced reissued sets are missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts
6) Why some parts are missing 3-5 figures and others are missing none

The damaged mold theory is also very simple and practical. Let's face it, shizznit breaks. I can think of no other theory, as simple, that explains so much.

(Hell, I can think of no other theory that simultaneously explains 1 and 2, let alone 3-6.)

[jkaris]

Or.... out of the hundreds of figures, they chose a handful, that just so happened to not include non-MUSCLE sculpts. You can't really assess a broken mold by a 4%-5% sample. I think they just picked a handful of the most popular characters and re-did them to test the waters.

I agree, but I'm basing the assumption on more than just series one painted reissues. Don't forget about this reissue set: Kinkeshi 1-21. It also was made by Bandai and is mysteriously missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

That set was actually the 4%-5% I was talking about. 20+ sculpts out of 400+.

The first Yutaka set (presumed to be made by Bandai) may have been that first tree simply because they wanted to start re-issueing the line as painted, but changed their mind after sales weren't so hot (big assumption). But even if not, the series is 10 per set, and the first tree of 10 was as good a starting point as any.
Although, it is likely that they may not have been made by Bandai for Yutaka. The plastic is a lot harder than the Bandai and Banpresto figures made the next year, almost Ultimate Muscle 1.5 plastic.

We have the MUSCLE toyline missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.
The 1-21 reissue set made by Bandai missing the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.
The first reissue painted set made by Bandai without Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

Three is a pretty good number!

The MUSCLE toyline for some reason, chose 233. I seriously doubt that half the kinkeshi molds, especially the 13 parts in production during the two years of MUSCLEs release, somehow had gotten damaged so severely that they couldn't use them to make MUSCLEs. Think about it, nearly 200 sculpts with screwed up molds?
I think it had more to do with licensing fees. My guess is that licensing all 400 molds wasn't in Mattel's budget for the line.

I see somewhat of a pattern here. It seems that sometime around 1985-1987, Bandai stopped producing Non-MUSCLE sculpt figures. Personally, I think the most logical reason is that the molds became useless.
(It also happens to neatly explain the Non-Poster figures.)

No, Bandai kept producing Kinkeshi up to 1991. All of which (from 22 on) were non MUSCLE sculpts. They also produced 7 parts (15-21) during, or immediately prior to, the MUSCLE line's production. Assuming that these molds were damaged and the super rares were mistakes, you would see the wear and degradtion in the SR figures, which you don't. No SR figure to date has shown any sign of mold degradation.

As for Kinkeshi rarity, deformities, etc. Considering the MUSCLE toyline, SRs in Flesh, reissues missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts, etc., etc. I think we have plenty of data to support the idea that kinkeshi molds sometimes went bad.

Except for some phyical proof. Like a SR with deformities. If they were bad molds and the SR figures were quality control issues, then the SR figures would have noticeable damage.

Are there possibly any other kinkeshi sets missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts that could be analyzed with the trees?

I attached a pic of the figures tht came in the Banpresto re-issues. These are the ones from the earlier parts, not the 91-2 parts. The last three are pictured on the back of the mini-book, but weren't actually produced.

Attached Files

•  banpresto.jpg   42.81K   29 downloads

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I attached a pic of the figures tht came in the Banpresto re-issues. These are the ones from the earlier parts, not the 91-2 parts. The last three are pictured on the back of the mini-book, but weren't actually produced.

Are you sure these are all of the figures reissued or supposed to have been?

There are 4 Non-muscle sculpts missing, and 7 Muscle sculpts missing total from all the respective trees.

The tree from Part 1 should consist of #'s 20/23/31/33/35/36/46/60/61/82
This tree is complete, except the reissues are missing #82.

The two trees that are from Part 2 are missing 3 Non-Muscle Sculpts as well as 6 Muscle sculpts. Part 2 consisted of trees
1-17/21/26/43/44/54/67/103 + 2 NM sculpts. This tree has all Muscle sculpts.
2-10/13/24/25/38/48/49/51/53 + 1 NM sculpt. This tree is missing 6 Muscle sculpts?

Then there is 161, the only known figure to be made by itself.

And 79, 132, and 144 belong to Part 5 and are missing 1 Non-muscle and muscle #81 from their tree.

This is quite odd, even for reissues. That's alot of missing figures, especially muscle sculpts.

Edited by Universal Ruler Supreme, 30 April 2006 - 10:01 PM.

[jkaris]

Yup, that is all that was re-issued during Banprestos run. 10 different packs, 3 per pack, each 3 pack was identical, except for color mix. 7 were MUSCLE sculpts from early kinkeshi parts, 3 were re-issues from part 91-2.

[Soupie]

The MUSCLE toyline for some reason, chose 233. I seriously doubt that half the kinkeshi molds, especially the 13 parts in production during the two years of MUSCLEs release, somehow had gotten damaged so severely that they couldn't use them to make MUSCLEs. Think about it, nearly 200 sculpts with screwed up molds?
I think it had more to do with licensing fees. My guess is that licensing all 400 molds wasn't in Mattel's budget for the line.

I thought it might be a licensing fee as well, until I noticed that some parts of 20, divided into two trees of ten, were missing a sculpt, making an uneven 9 and 10.

I thought maybe Bandai purposefully left 1-2 scupts out of each part so MUSCLE wouldn't be complete like kinkeshi, but some parts had all figures made, while some did not.

The other thing that convinced me that it wasn't a licensing issues is the fact that the 1-21 reissues, from the same parts, are missing the same figures!

I don't think Bandai had any licensing issues with their own sculpts.

Since at this point we are all going on hunches -- despite the fact that the broken mold theory explains literally everything so nicely and no other theory comes close -- I think if it was a licensing isues, Mattel/Bandai would have made, say, the first 250 or 200 hundred figures, perod... and not mysteriously left out 1-5 sculpts from random parts. (Especially since Bandai clearly used the trees to make the MUSCLEs.)

The licensing theory does not explain the SR figures.

As far as deformities... that's a negative argument. In other words, instead of looking at everything that the BM theory explains, you're saying we "should" see data that we don't. And, actually, I don't think we necessarily would see deformed figures. It was their product, why would they let shizznitty toys go to market?

(But, don't forget arforbes shizznitty NIKU. Obviously, shizznitty figures were made, but they usually got scrapped, I'm guessing, not packaged and sold.)

And, though we may not see deformities, we do see the Super Rares! What more indication do we need that some molds couldn't complete a full production?

As far as parts beyond 21, I can't say. I'm really only concerned about parts 1-21 and the sculpts on the poster.

As far as the Banpresto reissues: Once again, the Non-MUSCLE sculpts are missing.

That is 4 reissue sets missing Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

[Kevin Mayle]

Nothing useful to add to this awesome thread other than I have read every post and think the broken mold theory sounds like a good bet.

[Soupie]

There are 4 Non-muscle sculpts missing, and 7 Muscle sculpts missing total from all the respective trees.

So you're saying (I haven't looked yet myself) that the Banepresto reissues come from parts 1, 2, and 5?

Do we know if Bandai produced the figures or Banepresto? Are the figures the same size as original Kinkeshi?

The reason I ask is because if Bandai did not make the figures, then it's likely -- like the series 2 and 3 painted reissues -- that production was based on figures alone and not trees.

We should only expect to see sculpts line up with trees if Bandai produced the figures, like the kinkeshi, MUSCLEs, and reissues 1-21 lines.

If the figures were produced elsewhere, I would not expect them to match up with trees.

On the other hand, if Bandai produced them, I would expect the figures to match up with trees. The thing is, Bandai seems to have avoided using trees that contain Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

As for why some MUSCLE sculpts are missing: I know Jkaris is going to roll his eyes, but is it possible that after the MUSCLE run, even some MUSCLE sculpts became useless and therefore could not be used to make reissues?

If the broken mold theory were true, we would expect this! In other words, after a mold is used X number of times, it wears out and can no longer be used.



As for why the 1-21 kinkeshi line is -- as far as we know -- missing no sculpts, the solution is simple. If a mold broke while Kinkeshi were being made, Bandai had the money and resources to make a new mold, whereas Mattel likely did not.

If a mold broke during Kinkeshi production, by all means a new one was made, but for MUSCLEs, it was either too expensive or there just wasn't the same urgency.

Are there any known fact about Kinkeshi/MUSCLE that contradicts the BM theory? For instance, I thought for a while that the painted, reissued Non-MUSCLE sculpts contradicted the BM theory, but know we know it does not.

I don't think the lack of deformed figures contradicts the BM theory. Bandai obviously had excellent quailty control, as I've only seen a handful of MUSCLEs with mold deformities.

I'm not sure what deformities a dying mold would produce, but one or two figures with missing fingers or no feet would likely be spotted pretty quickly.

Thanks to the SRs, we can speculate that when a mold died, it was simply pulled and no more figures were made (at least for MUSCLEs).

[jkaris]

Yes, the Banpresto figures are all exact to the T (or YSNT B ). What is interesting, is that the Bandai re-issues that same year had the edited trademarks (old tm filled in and new raised" tm put on).

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the re-issues not having Non-MUSCLE sculpts. Remember, the re-issue figures make up about 4% of the line. That isn't very telling.

Also, if the molds were damaged, as you theorize, then they would not have produced any of the SR figures, or if QC didn't catch them, they would show signs of a damaged mold. The only way around this is if the molds got damaged on the first run. And even then, both sides would have to be damaged at the same time. And to top that off, ALL of the molds with the same trees (assuming that there were more than one of each tree mold) would have to have gone bad at the same time. To me, the probability of that is impossible. Kinkeshi and MUSCLEs were both MASS produced. It doesn't make sense that only one mold of each tree would have been made.

When Bandai re-issued series 1, which tree was missing? The one with the Nazi. It is entirely possible that that was why the 2nd tree from the first series wasn't re-done.

The other thing is this:
According to Bandai, the molds had a 10 year life. When they started re-issuing the line in 1998/1999 (15-20 years after their creation), it is entirely possible that only a handful of molds were around at Bandai anymore.

The Broken Mold theory is a good one, but I am just saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[Soupie]

The Broken Mold theory is a good one, but I am just saying, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Yeah, you're right. One of the reasons I have been so persistent lately is because all of the speculation about the colored MUSCLEs did eventually pay off. Thus, I believe the SR mystery is very much able to be solved.

I came across this Injection Molding site. If this is typical of the machines used to make Kinkeshi and MUSCLE, then it is likely that only one tree consisting of several pairs of sculpts existed.

I envision 5-10 -- if that -- of these machines each working on one tree at a time. As a matter of fact, since most parts only had 2-4 trees, there may have only been 2-4 machines.

I myself worked two summers making popsicles for HERSHEY Ice Cream in Harrisburg, PA. (No connection to Hershey Chocolate in Hershey, PA.)

We had two massive machines (2 of only four in existence) that were able to pump out 14 popsicles every 7 seconds. Newer machines only produce 7 popsicles at a time. (Much easier to handle.) No kidding, I clocked in at 5 am, was replaced at 2 pm, and the 2 pm shift worked until 12 am. In fact, we worked 2 weeks of the morning shift, and one week of the 2 pm -- 12 am shift. (There were two machines and three teams who rotated-- only one machine ran at night.)

I was one of the guys who made sure the paper for the popsicles did not jam as it fed into the machine. (Or let it run out... oops.)

Actually, I kind of miss it... I used to eat the orange creamsicles for breakfast!



The machine above is somewhat similar to the machines we used. They are massive... our machines were a quarter of a football field in length. This was necessary to have the ice cream mix freeze.

The ice cream mix came from huge tanks upstairs and was injected into a rotating belt of hundreds of ice cream popsicle molds (14 across).

There were days when hundreds of perfectly good popsicles ended up on the floor...



I know that popsicle machines are much different than injection molding machines. My point is that these machines are huge and expensive.

On our factory floor at Hershey ice cream, I'm sure things were much more hectic than at Bandai. (Many people, 2-3 in my two years, got the tips of a finger cut off from the blade that cut the paper for each individual popsicle.)

Believe me, I've searched the net many times looking for info on Bandai. There has to be a book out there someone that talks about the giant toy company!

In any case, the above Web site has a forum. I posted a question about injection mold life and the possibility of molds become unusable. We'll see if anyone has anything insightful to say!

[jkaris]

In any case, the above Web site has a forum. I posted a question about injection mold life and the possibility of molds become unusable. We'll see if anyone has anything insightful to say!

I am in contact with Bandai JP as well. While Mattel may no longer have anyone around who worked on MUSCLE, the Japanese are ususally lifers at their jobs, so I may have better luck with Bandai than Veers did with Mattel.

[Soupie]

When I was considering the randomness of the Non-MUSCLE sculpts in regards to which parts/trees they belong to, the only thing that made sense other than broken molds was a licensing issue. However, I ruled out a licensing issue on Mattel's end -- kind of -- because of the odd number of 233 and because the Non-MUSCLE sculpts -- which would be the ones Mattel didn't license -- seem to be from random parts/trees.

Instead, what if Bandai/Mattel was unable to get permissions for certain characters within the Kinnikuman line? Maybe characters created by fans, or for some other bizarro reason...

This, I thought, would explain the apparent randomness of the Non-MUSCLE sculpts.

However, I've checked the backs of all the Non-MUSCLE sculpt Kinkeshi I have and the TMs are exactly the same as MUSCLE sculpts.

When Bandai re-issued series 1, which tree was missing? The one with the Nazi. It is entirely possible that that was why the 2nd tree from the first series wasn't re-done.

Good thought, but considering Series 2 and Series 3 each have a Brocken sculpt, I don't think it was a big concern.



Interestingly though, the flesh Banpresto release also used Part One, Tree Two (albiet missing MUSCLE sculpt #082).

1) That's two reissued sets using Part One, Tree Two

2) The reason I think they left #082 out is because they were releasing sets of 3 -- 9 is a multiple of three.

3) If the Part One Brocken mold was indeed broken, his tree would have been a 9. Why didn't they just use it? (Not good for the BM theory. Maybe sculpt #082 was damaged too...)

4) If we assume that #082 was fine, and that Banpresto used the tree to mold the figures, then we see that it was possible to leave a sculpt out. (Or, I guess as Arforbes said, simply throw one out after making it.)

Yes, the Banpresto figures are all exact to the T (or YSNT B laugh.gif ). What is interesting, is that the Bandai re-issues that same year had the edited trademarks (old tm filled in and new raised" tm put on).

What do you think the raised Y/S NT means?

My assumption is that the raised TM figures come from a mold made from a mass produced figure. Since the new figures are slightly smaller, the engraved TM is too small to be seen. Thus, they have to slap a new raised TM on.

Which Bandai reissues have the raised TM, and what year?

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I think they made slight changes to different reissue sets in order to tell them apart. One set being slightly smaller, one set with raised tm's, one set made out of a stiffer plastic, etc., etc.. It seems they didn't want to cause any confusion. So they just made random changes. They did the same thing when they made muscles from a different plastic, as well as exogini, and other kinnikuman knock off toylines. They probably used the same factories for production, and wanted to make sure they could tell them all apart from each other. That's my assumption anyway.

[jkaris]

Yes, the Banpresto figures are all exact to the T (or YSNT B laugh.gif ). What is interesting, is that the Bandai re-issues that same year had the edited trademarks (old tm filled in and new raised" tm put on).

What do you think the raised Y/S NT means?

My assumption is that the raised TM figures come from a mold made from a mass produced figure. Since the new figures are slightly smaller, the engraved TM is too small to be seen. Thus, they have to slap a new raised TM on.

Which Bandai reissues have the raised TM, and what year?

Soupie, you are getting your facts jumbled.

There was only one set of "Bandai" re-issues. The ones from 1999 (see the store link a few posts up). They have the raised trademark. They are not remolds, they are the exact figures with edited trademarks.

The only stubbies (smaller ones) are the Yutaka series 2 and 3.

But I agree with URS, the edited Trademarks on the Bandi re-issues was probably just a secondary way of distinguishing the re-issue line.

The Yutakas had raised edited trademarks, but thos had a Y insted of a B at the end, to signify that they were made by Yutaka, and not Bandai.