385 replies to this topic

[arforbes]

And here is a comparison shot for the Red Geronimo...

Attached Files

•  Red_Rares.jpg   139.64K   116 downloads

[Kevin Mayle]

Quite a year so far. Only 4 SRs prior to 2006 and then 15 more SRs found just this year. I know there are collectors here that would love a SR and there are a few collectors that have some. Doc has 3, and at the amount of money they cost, he obviously really treasures them. But my question is for Alex, owner of 12 SR's and spender of a veritable fortune. Do you feel a sense of incompleteness at having 248 of the 255 MUSCLEs, and facing the possibilty of not being able to get the ones you don't have? I myself would probably feel that way. I'm sure it's fun to see new SRs pop up and aquire, and from the looks of it, this could continue to keep happening. But having so many of them and spending so much to get them, is it painful to not have them all? I'm just trying to look into the mind of the fanatical, uber-collector.

[arforbes]

Quite a year so far. Only 4 SRs prior to 2006 and then 15 more SRs found just this year. I know there are collectors here that would love a SR and there are a few collectors that have some. Doc has 3, and at the amount of money they cost, he obviously really treasures them. But my question is for Alex, owner of 12 SR's and spender of a veritable fortune. Do you feel a sense of incompleteness at having 248 of the 255 MUSCLEs, and facing the possibilty of not being able to get the ones you don't have? I myself would probably feel that way. I'm sure it's fun to see new SRs pop up and aquire, and from the looks of it, this could continue to keep happening. But having so many of them and spending so much to get them, is it painful to not have them all? I'm just trying to look into the mind of the fanatical, uber-collector.

Haha, no not painful...I actually enjoy the search more than anything else. The fact that I do not have "all" of them does not bother me at all. I am sure there are many more out there to be found. That is what I focus most on with this hobby nowadays...trying to discover more if they are out there to be discovered. As a kid I never knew how many there actually were, I had no knowledge of the poster and that there were officially 233. So in my mind I imagined there were possibly an uncountable amount. So to this day my childhood fabrication is sort of, from a certain point of view, a bit factual. Its fun to continually wonder which ones will pop up next and the finding of them brings back that childhood feeling of getting that new pack with figures I have never seen!

Edited by arforbes, 26 July 2006 - 02:16 PM.

[Kevin Mayle]

Well that's cool, and I wouldn't doubt that there are more SRs out there.

[Beligerant1]

Wow the ram-guy is really cool looking, but the missile guy is pretty cheesy. I couldnt bring myself to spend the amount of money alex and others spend on those super rares, It would be awesome to find one though. So the new region to search for super rares is Japan/Asia I guess since the last 14/15 came from there. Makes sense to me.

As a sidenote I feel kinda jipped because we havnt even completed a regular muscle color set yet for figures like #001. If there is any one figure that should exist in all colors, thats the one. Where's his magenta prototype?

Edited by Beligerant1, 26 July 2006 - 03:17 PM.

[arforbes]

Wow the ram-guy is really cool looking, but the missile guy is pretty cheesy. I couldnt bring myself to spend the amount of money alex and others spend on those super rares, It would be awesome to find one though.

I think the Missileman is badass looking! It is by far one of my favorites!

Edited by arforbes, 26 July 2006 - 05:51 PM.

[jkaris]

I updated the SR FAQ.

[Soupie]

I think it is significant that all of the Non-Poster MUSCLEs found in Japan come from Parts 22 and beyond, and that all of the Non-Poster MUSCLEs found in America come from Parts 1-21.

Even though Parts 1-26 were available in 1985-1987, Mattel apparently chose to restrict the line to 233 sculpts from Parts 1-21.

A couple little facts/details that are tickling my brain are:

(1) Satan Cross only being found in Flesh.
(2) Satan Cross not on poster.
(3) Flesh, Red, Dark Blue, and Purple appearing in packaging together.
(4) The fact that the above four colors seem to have been "double dipped."*
(5) The fact that multiple SHA and BHS have been found.**
(6) A colored Non-Poster MUSCLE found within Parts 1-21.
(7) MUSCLE-like figures from Parts beyond 21 being found in Japan.

I feel like the answer is staring us in the face!



* According to the MUSCLE DB, Purple can be found in the most sculpts with 194, Dark Blue comes in second with 180 -- Red comes in fifth with 162. However, the double dip theory is that more figures were produced in those three colors, not more sculpts. And the MDB data confirms this theory with Purple leading the way with 2930 figures reported, Dark Blue with 2724, and Red with 2667. (Keep in mind that although fewer sculpts have been made in Red than other colors, there are more Red figures available. No other colors report more than 2,000 figures found. This data supports the Double Dip theory.

** Maybe there is a connection between multiple Satan Crosses, SHA, and BHS, and multiple parts. Maybe they tried to make these sculpts, but due to small parts, had to stop. This puts these sculpts into a different catagory.

[arforbes]

** Maybe there is a connection between multiple Satan Crosses, SHA, and BHS, and multiple parts. Maybe they tried to make these sculpts, but due to small parts, had to stop. This puts these sculpts into a different catagory.

Possibly, but I wouldn't be surprised if we found a SC, SHA, and/or BHS in Red, Dark Blue, or Purple.

[Soupie]

So just to clarify what you and Veers seem to be thinking:

(1) Original run of 233 sculpts from parts 1 through 21 in Flesh, Red, Dark Blue, and Purple.

(2) Later, more colors were added, and plans for production of parts 22-30 were halted.

(3) However, several Non-MUSCLE sculpts from Parts 1-28 were accidentaly made in at least Flesh, Red, and Dark Blue.

Is this pretty much what you are thinking?

Edited by Soupie, 27 July 2006 - 04:38 AM.

[Soupie]

Here's an idea I've been kicking around which may or may not fit in with your above musings.

As far as I know, Naochin does not feature MUSCLEs on his Web site (though he does feature G2 Ultimate Muscle.)

This and other reasons lead me to believe no MUSCLEs or even MUSCLE-like figures were released in Japan.

So how do we explain the Magnifient Eleven found -- with other poster MUSCLEs -- in MUSCLE packaging in Japan? And how do we explain three Dark Blue MUSCLE figures also found in Japan?

I have a feeling that there are many more "MUSCLEs" from Parts 22 through 30 to be found via Yahoo! Japan.

I believe these Japanese MUSCLEs are prototypes/first runs of a cancelled run of MUSCLE figures.

The time line I have in mind is something like this:

(1) 233 MUSCLEs from Parts 1-21 made in Flesh (Satan Cross, and other SRs, made in this phase.)

Early success of line leads to:

(2) 233 MUSCLEs from Parts 1-21 made in Flesh, Red, Purple, and Dark Blue (More Super Rares from Parts 1-21 made in this phase.)

(3) MUSCLEs begin to be made/prototypes made in Flesh, Red, Purple, and Dark Blue from new Parts 22-30 (Super Rares from Parts 22-28 made in this phase.)

(4) Mattel halts production of new sculpts and instead opts to make the 233 from Parts 1-21 in Flesh, Red, Purple, Dark Blue, Light Blue, Orange, etc. instead. (Thus Double Dipping.)

(5) MUSCLEs from Parts 22-30 are kept at the Bandai factory, but later make it onto Yahoo! Japan.

What might this mean for the MUSCLE line, I'm not sure.

[Satan+]

Well guys , I read last reports and new evidences about SR´s origins.
The former discovey of Magnificent 11 by Jon and the new colored ones by Alex , all in Japan market (except a red Geronimo) support a theory I´m growing up ... And if BANDAI instead released new colored and sculped to US market , really released to Japanese market . I mean , they dicovered a more resistent and economical plastic ( MUSCLES ) and decided to released in Japan to replaced the kinkeshi versions.
As I´m sure the cartoon was cancelled that time in Japan (1987-88), it could be more economical released the old sculped in new colored and plastic instead new sculped versions(createing more caracteres).Remember Magnificent 11 and american SR´s are "new sculped" in US but "old sculped" in Japan ...
When we search explains , we need to study evidences and I´m sure you guys are in right way . It´s very difficult know what were in Bandai or even Mattel executives minds about a toys line that was cancelled almost 20 years ago ...
The evidences are :
1)American SR´s are all from a few parts and have almost the same caracteristics-- SC , SHA and BHS are from the same part and all have 2-pieces ( except SC but as it was proved to be released in 4-packs , maybe it could no contain 4 figs plus a second part ); Dr.Bombay was from the same part of them .
-DM and DE are from the same part too ( coincidence ???)
-Red Geronimo is from lower part (13) as the others (you never discovered someone from upper to part 21 in American market );
2)Japanese SR´s ( Magnificent 11 ) are all from parts upper to 21 and they are from almost the same part ( ex. 6 figs from part 22 ) . The blue ones Alex discovered are from the same rules .
Remember , except SC , SHA and BHS ( all from American toyline ) , we NEVER , NEVER discovered SR´s in doubles . An I think we never do !!!!!!!!!
So , I can conclued :
-SHA and BHS are from a american second flesh wave cancelled soon ( explains they were found in the same place ) .
-Dr. Bombay has no 2-pieces and is unique , but is also from a cancelled second wave like the others ( remember he was bought from a guy whose sold me my first SHA and lived in north ) ;
-DM and DE are from the same part and also from second wave cancelled .
-So , all the guys from this site focus their eyes , looking for Black Menrui , Robin Mask father and New Asyuraman on eBay !!!
And I can speculate :
-There are a lot of SR´s in Japanese market , but only one of each other ... I doubt there are doubles .
I suggest Jon Karis contact Naochin hinself to participate our thread . I tried but he never responded me ...
Thanks everybody and I would like to read your oppinions .
Ricardo .

[Soupie]

So , I can conclued :
-SHA and BHS are from a american second flesh wave cancelled soon ( explains they were found in the same place ) .
-Dr. Bombay has no 2-pieces and is unique , but is also from a cancelled second wave like the others ( remember he was bought from a guy whose sold me my first SHA and lived in north ) ;
-DM and DE are from the same part and also from second wave cancelled .
-So , all the guys from this site focus their eyes , looking for Black Menrui , Robin Mask father and New Asyuraman on eBay !!!

This part of the theory isn't new -- (8) The Non-Poster MUSCLEs are the result of a second wave of MUSCLEs that was quickly replaced by a second wave consisting of colored MUSCLEs -- and it doesn't seem to account for the Part 13, Red Geronimo.

However, your idea that Bandai considered releasing a line of kinkeshi in MUSCLE plastic is interesting as there were several lines of kinkeshi released in different types of plastic. (Actually, my favorite plastic type is the Banpresto and re-issue plastic/rubber which is somewhere between original Kinkeshi rubber and MUSCLE plastic in firmness.)

However, I don't think we really have enough info to conclude that Bandai considered releasing the last few Kinkeshi Parts in MUSCLE plastic. Furthermore, I don't think it would have made sense for Bandai to switch plastic types at the end of the toyline.

Personally, I still think the Mag 11 and the 3 Blues are either prototypes or just interesting oddities that managed to make it out of the factory.

When I worked for Hershey Ice Cream there were times when we used the incorrect paper or container for ice cream that needed to come out of the machine before it could be shut down, but this was extremely rare and we never would have allowed them to leave the factory.

[Soupie]

Personally, I still think the Mag 11 and the 3 Blues are either prototypes or just interesting oddities that managed to make it out of the factory.

To clarify, I think the Mag 11 and 3 Blues are prototypes for a 3rd wave of MUSCLEs from Parts 22-30 to be made in Flesh, Dark Blue, Red, and Purple that was cancelled and replaced by a wave consisting of sculpts from Parts 1-21 made again in Flesh, Red, Dark Blue, and Purple, as well as new colors such as Light Blue, Green, Magenta, etc.

In other words, rather than making new sculpts from Parts 22-30, Mattel decided to releases Parts 1-21 in new colors.

This explains the Part 13, Red Geronimo and why Flesh, Red, Blue, and Purple figures are more abundant.

Again, here is the production timeline I envision:

(1) 233 in Flesh
(2) 233 in Flesh, Dark Blue, Purple, and Red.
(3) Sculpts from Parts 22-30 in Flesh, Dark Blue, Purple, and Red.
(3) 233 in Flesh, Dark Blue, Purple, Red, Magenta, Orange, Green, Light Blue, etc.

In this theory, all the SRs from parts 1-21 are production mistakes, not figures purposefully made to be released in a cancelled wave. However, the figures from parts 22-30 are the result of a cancelled wave.

Specifically, the Flesh SRs stem from waves (1) and (2), Satan Cross stems from wave (1), Red Geronimo stems from wave (2), and the Mag 11 and 3 Blues stem from the cancelled wave (3).

Edited by Soupie, 13 August 2006 - 07:41 AM.

[Soupie]

Jkaris, what definitively are the production date windows for each of the Kinkeshi parts?

Parts 1-26 -- 1985-1987

Parts 27-30 -- ?

[Satan+]

Could John Karis invite Naochin to share his ideas with us ?
He could give more informations about the origens of Mag 11 Blue ones ...
Does Everybody agrees that SC , SHA and BHA would be inclued in MUSCLE toyline ? They were found in doubles and in American territory ! But I don´t know why thre are MUCH more SHA than BHS ...

[Soupie]

Jkaris, what definitively are the production date windows for each of the Kinkeshi parts?

Parts 1-26 -- 1985-1987

Parts 27-30 -- ?

According to Naochin's site, the entire standard series, Parts 1 through 30, were made between 1983 and 1987.

Unfortunately, Naochin doesn't have images of the mini books for each part on his site and he fails to list the year of production for each part.

It would be interesting to see which Parts were released prior to 1985, when MUSCLE production began, and which Parts were released in 1985, at the same time MUSCLE were.

I'm betting Parts 1-12 were released prior to 1985.

[righteousman]

My Theory:

So, in my best estimates, millions of muscles were produced by Bandai between 1985-1987 and distributed by Mattel. Of the millions of muscles that were purchased in this time period, I'm guessing only a very small number of those have been sold on eBay. Say 1%. How many of the originally purchased muscles were thrown in the trash by hasty parents, forgotten in attics or basements, or just kept in boxes after their novelty wore off.

Regardless, my point is that we've barely seen any of the total number of muscles produced in auctions. My theory is that Mattel initially inked a contract with Bandai to produce muscles based on their existing Kinnikuman figures, in a more attractive mold. At this point, Bandai, already having molds for the existing Kinnikuman line and before the stipulation for the unique # of muscles that would be produced, produced all Kinnikuman figures in the 4 and 10 packs in their initial shipment. At this point, Mattel stipulated that they would only include 233 muscles in their line of muscles, and thus the remaining sculpts were not to be used. However this initial shipment went out with all of the sculpts and therefore there are probably hundreds of super rares in existence, however we've only seen a few in different auctions. Additionally, the availability of Satan Cross can be attributed to further shipments of this sculpt before it was even realized that they were shipping 234 muscles instead of 233. Future shipments only contained 233 sculpts.

Keep in mind that this is just a theory, but I firmly believe that all Kinnikuman sculpts initially went out as part of the first shipment, and maybe as little as a few hundred of each actually made it out before the other sculpts were discontinued. And of course, how easy would it have been to accidentally produce sculpts of non-muscle kinnikuman, and ship those out by accident after the fact? Maybe in the case of the coloured super rares.

[arforbes]

My Theory:

So, in my best estimates, millions of muscles were produced by Bandai between 1985-1987 and distributed by Mattel. Of the millions of muscles that were purchased in this time period, I'm guessing only a very small number of those have been sold on eBay. Say 1%. How many of the originally purchased muscles were thrown in the trash by hasty parents, forgotten in attics or basements, or just kept in boxes after their novelty wore off.

Regardless, my point is that we've barely seen any of the total number of muscles produced in auctions. My theory is that Mattel initially inked a contract with Bandai to produce muscles based on their existing Kinnikuman figures, in a more attractive mold. At this point, Bandai, already having molds for the existing Kinnikuman line and before the stipulation for the unique # of muscles that would be produced, produced all Kinnikuman figures in the 4 and 10 packs in their initial shipment. At this point, Mattel stipulated that they would only include 233 muscles in their line of muscles, and thus the remaining sculpts were not to be used. However this initial shipment went out with all of the sculpts and therefore there are probably hundreds of super rares in existence, however we've only seen a few in different auctions. Additionally, the availability of Satan Cross can be attributed to further shipments of this sculpt before it was even realized that they were shipping 234 muscles instead of 233. Future shipments only contained 233 sculpts.

Keep in mind that this is just a theory, but I firmly believe that all Kinnikuman sculpts initially went out as part of the first shipment, and maybe as little as a few hundred of each actually made it out before the other sculpts were discontinued. And of course, how easy would it have been to accidentally produce sculpts of non-muscle kinnikuman, and ship those out by accident after the fact? Maybe in the case of the coloured super rares.

A very interesting theory, and one that I have pondered many times. Quite possibly they are all out there waiting to be discovered...

[meatcutta78]

My Theory:

So, in my best estimates, millions of muscles were produced by Bandai between 1985-1987 and distributed by Mattel. Of the millions of muscles that were purchased in this time period, I'm guessing only a very small number of those have been sold on eBay. Say 1%. How many of the originally purchased muscles were thrown in the trash by hasty parents, forgotten in attics or basements, or just kept in boxes after their novelty wore off.

Regardless, my point is that we've barely seen any of the total number of muscles produced in auctions. My theory is that Mattel initially inked a contract with Bandai to produce muscles based on their existing Kinnikuman figures, in a more attractive mold. At this point, Bandai, already having molds for the existing Kinnikuman line and before the stipulation for the unique # of muscles that would be produced, produced all Kinnikuman figures in the 4 and 10 packs in their initial shipment. At this point, Mattel stipulated that they would only include 233 muscles in their line of muscles, and thus the remaining sculpts were not to be used. However this initial shipment went out with all of the sculpts and therefore there are probably hundreds of super rares in existence, however we've only seen a few in different auctions. Additionally, the availability of Satan Cross can be attributed to further shipments of this sculpt before it was even realized that they were shipping 234 muscles instead of 233. Future shipments only contained 233 sculpts.

Keep in mind that this is just a theory, but I firmly believe that all Kinnikuman sculpts initially went out as part of the first shipment, and maybe as little as a few hundred of each actually made it out before the other sculpts were discontinued. And of course, how easy would it have been to accidentally produce sculpts of non-muscle kinnikuman, and ship those out by accident after the fact? Maybe in the case of the coloured super rares.

A very interesting theory, and one that I have pondered many times. Quite possibly they are all out there waiting to be discovered...

I myself like this theory,the next big question is whos going to find the next one,Alex i think you need to give someone else a shot
I will find one someday and then and only then will the world be mine

[jkaris]

Well, armydentist noticed this one on YJP...
 nanigasi2001_img600x329_117647217418_1.jpg   32.5K   44 downloads
 nanigasi2001_img600x301_117647218218_2.jpg   28.78K   24 downloads

From the gloss, it looked like it could be M.U.S.C.L.E., but common sense said kinkeshi. So I picked it up and it came in today...


alas, it was kinkeshi. But it's a good example of coloring and lighting in pictures. From the hue and gloss it looked like a MUSCLE.

Anyways, just thought I'd share.

[meatcutta78]

Well, armydentist noticed this one on YJP...
 nanigasi2001_img600x329_117647217418_1.jpg   32.5K   44 downloads
 nanigasi2001_img600x301_117647218218_2.jpg   28.78K   24 downloads

From the gloss, it looked like it could be M.U.S.C.L.E., but common sense said kinkeshi. So I picked it up and it came in today...


alas, it was kinkeshi. But it's a good example of coloring and lighting in pictures. From the hue and gloss it looked like a MUSCLE.

Anyways, just thought I'd share.

or like this 1,I was hoping it was worth my effort but they werent,I asked him for more close-ups etc,never did but i wanted it anyways.

Attached Files

•  0c77_1.jpg   29.6K   40 downloads

[gilgar]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that does this. I thought for sure I had one in this lot, the seller was even from New York. Alas, it was a kinkeshi as were two others. At least I got it pretty cheap.

Attached Files

•  d2ed_1.jpg   23.13K   40 downloads

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that does this. I thought for sure I had one in this lot, the seller was even from New York. Alas, it was a kinkeshi as were two others. At least I got it pretty cheap.

I run into these all the time. Shame I didn't win that auction. I think I won one you were bidding on with a Black Sumoh in it though Gilgar. Alas also a Kinkeshi. I've gotten used to the colors by now. Although It still puzzles me how many kinkeshi's are stashed throughout this country with a bag full of muscles. I lost another auction a good while back that had a flesh Brocken in it. I didn't know who the winner was, but I'm sure it was just a keshi. It's hard not to take a chance and sometimes pay a bit more than you usually would, even if your sure it's not a muscle. Cause dirt, fading, and bad lighting can always make it look like a keshi.