142 replies to this topic

[ironmask]

Well, I think when newjacks sign up, they should get the 411 on board ethics, and they should be informed that shit isn't to be tolerated... And that it's not okay for them to be taken advantage of either.
I think everybody should be less concerned about "just getting along" (which frankly, hasn't been working), and more concerned with ACTUALLY getting along.

[dwitefry]

The OP is rather excellent, because amongst everything else it relates to just about any 'major' nostalgic franchise with a community - you could take that first post and replace MUSCLE with references to He-man or Micronaughts or Transformers or whatever and it would still work really well.

I've been growing weary as I work through completing my current project - with is to simply complete all the sets of toys I didn't or couldn't complete as a child, that's why I came on here originally - it's part of a therapy for me set by my last...therapy person (she didn't say 'go and buy loads of MUSCLE' lol it's about staggering 'short term projects with long term gain' or something similar to that wording to keep me going), so I thought it was just getting to me a bit more (y'know a 'this is supposed to be helpful!' sort of thing) so it's really nice to see that 'you' (which I guess is 'we' now - have I've been here long enough to use 'we' do you think?) aren't just accepting all the shitty behavior that goes on in collector communities - I have had no shitty behavior here btw, everyone I've dealt with buying and selling has been lovely, friendly and fair and a breath of fresh air compared to the comic collector community of a decade ago I can tell ya, and ebay today.

There is a lot of terrible behavior that's just become acceptable and it's good to see it not only challenged but no one so far defending the behavior, you've made my week in fact and i feel kind of...re-energized. Thanks.

Edited by dwitefry, 28 February 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[ironmask]

The OP is rather excellent, because amongst everything else it relates to just about any 'major' nostalgic franchise with a community - you could take that first post and replace MUSCLE with references to He-man or Micronaughts or Transformers or whatever and it would still work really well.

I've been growing weary as I work through completing my current project - with is to simply complete all the sets of toys I didn't or couldn't complete as a child, that's why I came on here originally - it's part of a therapy for me set by my last...therapy person (she didn't say 'go and buy loads of MUSCLE' lol it's about staggering 'short term projects with long term gain' or something similar to that wording to keep me going), so I thought it was just getting to me a bit more (y'know a 'this is supposed to be helpful!' sort of thing) so it's really nice to see that 'you' (which I guess is 'we' now - have I've been here long enough to use 'we' do you think?) aren't just accepting all the shitty behavior that goes on in collector communities - I have had no shitty behavior here btw, everyone I've dealt with buying and selling has been lovely, friendly and fair and a breath of fresh air compared to the comic collector community of a decade ago I can tell ya, and ebay today.

There is a lot of terrible behavior that's just become acceptable and it's good to see it not only challenged but no one so far defending the behavior, you've made my week in fact and i feel kind of...re-energized. Thanks.

Well, that's the thing... By your description, YOU are exactly the kind of person that we want here as a WE. Just do what you can to let somebody know, if somebody is trying to take advantage of you, and the rest should resolve itself.

I can see where newjacks would look at some of our (older members) responses to new members' "How much is this worth" posts as "Snobbery"... or Cynicism... But, we're just tired of people trying to take advantage of what was always (to most of us) about love for the game. Keeping a dialogue with the group, will help that. I will certainly try to do my part.

We aren't GPKU, or any of the Transformers or GI Joe sites.. MUSCLE is a pretty niche community, and we're basically it. WE are the authority (seemingly, worldwide, look at our roster) on all things LRG. We can choose what our ethical trends are going to be. Let's make JKaris, Rid, Doc, URS, Soups, Tortle, and even Darren from MPS proud by making LRG what is always was supposed to be.

[ALLSPORTDVD]

This is the best post in a long time - I am in total agreement with alot of what Ironmask has said.

I got nostalgic on my 35th birthday & decided to come back to collecting my favorite childhood toy - M.U.S.C.L.E.

6 days later I joined this site & started collecting/gathering info etc & met people who helped me with my hobby. Many of which I'm still friendly with now.

I got to within 56 of the Master Set with help from other collectors & buying Class A figures from them at the $20-$50 mark a figure which I felt was comfortable.

Then suddenly every Ebay auction with a Class A figure ends within minutes of it being listed, or the price runs up to ridiculous levels or there is some drama with it. What's even worse is people getting doubles & triples of the same figure, thereby robbing other collectors of the opportunity to add it to their collection.

It is a complete turnoff & so I stopped trying to complete a master set & turned to other lines of Kinkeshi figures - admittingly using the now inflated prices of Muscle to sell my Class A figures for higher prices & in turn, injecting that in many other figures which are quite frankly, cooler looking & better display pieces than muscle. Plus, I'm getting more bang for my buck!

In my research (I do alot of that, it's my job) I have found many figures that appear often enough (and in US based auctions) to not be considered Class A & I have made a checklist to reflect my research. By no means am I calling myself an expert, however, I have dedicated quite a bit of time to Muscle & noticed trends in figures appearing in Canadian auctions vs US auctions among other things.

I guess my point is that Ironmask is not alone in his feelings towards where the direction of Muscle collecting is headed........

[dwitefry]

Well, that's the thing... By your description, YOU are exactly the kind of person that we want here as a WE. Just do what you can to let somebody know, if somebody is trying to take advantage of you, and the rest should resolve itself.

Thank you that is a really nice thing to say, and don't worry I'm not known for being quiet if I think the piss is being taken

I can see where newjacks would look at some of our (older members) responses to new members' "How much is this worth" posts as "Snobbery"... or Cynicism... But, we're just tired of people trying to take advantage of what was always (to most of us) about love for the game. Keeping a dialogue with the group, will help that. I will certainly try to do my part.

I actually didn't feel much snobbery on here when I was reading through. As I'm doing this for the love it (and for therapy) and am totally opposed to doing hobbies just for money or status amongst the community I'll do my part as well mate.

[ironmask]

I guess my point is that Ironmask is not alone in his feelings towards where the direction of Muscle collecting is headed........

Please don't be mistaken... I feel optimistic for where things are headed. I think there are enough people not wanting to take the bullshit anymore. I feel good about it.
I'm keeping a PMA about it. If you find yourself contributing to the problem... Take a step back... And stop yourself. Trust me, the old school method of LRG'ing is a lot more conducive to filling out your collection. That doesn't mean that some figures no longer carry more trade value than others... Clearly, they do. There is disparity from sculpt-to-sculpt and color-to-color... But there is no logical argument for how cut-throat the hobby became.

If all of the awesome, ethical, and generous board members that I have dealt with stood up... This community would look a lot different. The good is stronger than the bad. They just need to speak up.
We need to speak up.


We need to be a "We" again.

[PlasticSoul]

Great post.

The biggest issue i see besides good people just letting bad people get away with all this shit is the FACT that even the great people here still deal with the slimebags bastards.

Lets be real, we all know who the crooks are. It's beyond obvious. They are jokes at this point with egos so big they don't care. The problem i see constantly is even the guys here i trust 100% will still SELL to those shits. They still give props to those scumbags when they post their new back alley score. Why the hell do you guys do it? Why sell to the guy you KNOW has ripped off tons of people and lied dozens of times and has no regrets about it whatsoever? Yeah the shits have seemingly unlimited funds and no problems paying your asking price instantly but is it really worth it? Do you feel good sending those people MORE muscles? Do you really think you should be giving them attention and props when they take pics of their new stuff?

Honestly?

If you all stopped dealing with them, stopped buying their shit, stopped selling them anything, stopped making them customs, stopped quoting their pics or replying to them in any way they would eventually go away.

Yeah it's funny to watch them brag and lie and call out other people constantly for doing the same shit but if we as a community literally put them on ignore we would win.

Edited by PlasticSoul, 28 February 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[ALLSPORTDVD]

Great post.

The biggest issue i see besides good people just letting bad people get away with all this shit is the FACT that even the great people here still deal with the slimebags bastards.

Lets be real, we all know who the crooks are. It's beyond obvious. They are jokes at this point with egos so big they don't care. The problem i see constantly is even the guys here i trust 100% will still SELL to those shits. They still give props to those scumbags when they post their new back alley score. Why the hell do you guys do it? Why sell to the guy you KNOW has ripped off tons of people and lied dozens of times and has no regrets about it whatsoever? Yeah the shits have seemingly unlimited funds and no problems paying your asking price instantly but is it really worth it? Do you feel good sending those people MORE muscles? Do you really think you should be giving them attention and props when they take pics of their new stuff?

Honestly?

If you all stopped dealing with them, stopped buying their shit, stopped selling them anything, stopped making them customs, stopped quoting their pics or replying to them in any way they would eventually go away.

Yeah it's funny to watch them brag and lie and call out other people constantly for doing the same shit but if we as a community literally put them on ignore we would win.

That is very true - good point

[TheRiddler]

Great post.

The biggest issue i see besides good people just letting bad people get away with all this shit is the FACT that even the great people here still deal with the slimebags bastards.

Lets be real, we all know who the crooks are. It's beyond obvious. They are jokes at this point with egos so big they don't care. The problem i see constantly is even the guys here i trust 100% will still SELL to those shits. They still give props to those scumbags when they post their new back alley score. Why the hell do you guys do it? Why sell to the guy you KNOW has ripped off tons of people and lied dozens of times and has no regrets about it whatsoever? Yeah the shits have seemingly unlimited funds and no problems paying your asking price instantly but is it really worth it? Do you feel good sending those people MORE muscles? Do you really think you should be giving them attention and props when they take pics of their new stuff?

Honestly?

If you all stopped dealing with them, stopped buying their shit, stopped selling them anything, stopped making them customs, stopped quoting their pics or replying to them in any way they would eventually go away.

Yeah it's funny to watch them brag and lie and call out other people constantly for doing the same shit but if we as a community literally put them on ignore we would win.

You couldnt have put that any better...time to stop dealing with these turds altogether. We all know who they are!

Im kind of glad im on a buying hiatus for the time being...hopefully when i start up again these noobs will be gone

[Toxoviper]

This is the best post in a long time - I am in total agreement with alot of what Ironmask has said.

I got nostalgic on my 35th birthday & decided to come back to collecting my favorite childhood toy - M.U.S.C.L.E.

6 days later I joined this site & started collecting/gathering info etc & met people who helped me with my hobby. Many of which I'm still friendly with now.

I got to within 56 of the Master Set with help from other collectors & buying Class A figures from them at the $20-$50 mark a figure which I felt was comfortable.

Then suddenly every Ebay auction with a Class A figure ends within minutes of it being listed, or the price runs up to ridiculous levels or there is some drama with it. What's even worse is people getting doubles & triples of the same figure, thereby robbing other collectors of the opportunity to add it to their collection.

It is a complete turnoff & so I stopped trying to complete a master set & turned to other lines of Kinkeshi figures - admittingly using the now inflated prices of Muscle to sell my Class A figures for higher prices & in turn, injecting that in many other figures which are quite frankly, cooler looking & better display pieces than muscle. Plus, I'm getting more bang for my buck!

In my research (I do alot of that, it's my job) I have found many figures that appear often enough (and in US based auctions) to not be considered Class A & I have made a checklist to reflect my research. By no means am I calling myself an expert, however, I have dedicated quite a bit of time to Muscle & noticed trends in figures appearing in Canadian auctions vs US auctions among other things.

I guess my point is that Ironmask is not alone in his feelings towards where the direction of Muscle collecting is headed........

I like the path you choose. Your Deka collection is incredible and a real show stopper. Much more so then a few Class A MUSCLEs.

It's best to show off what you collected in comparison for the money.

Great post.

The biggest issue i see besides good people just letting bad people get away with all this shit is the FACT that even the great people here still deal with the slimebags bastards.

Lets be real, we all know who the crooks are. It's beyond obvious. They are jokes at this point with egos so big they don't care. The problem i see constantly is even the guys here i trust 100% will still SELL to those shits. They still give props to those scumbags when they post their new back alley score. Why the hell do you guys do it? Why sell to the guy you KNOW has ripped off tons of people and lied dozens of times and has no regrets about it whatsoever? Yeah the shits have seemingly unlimited funds and no problems paying your asking price instantly but is it really worth it? Do you feel good sending those people MORE muscles? Do you really think you should be giving them attention and props when they take pics of their new stuff?

Honestly?

If you all stopped dealing with them, stopped buying their shit, stopped selling them anything, stopped making them customs, stopped quoting their pics or replying to them in any way they would eventually go away.

Yeah it's funny to watch them brag and lie and call out other people constantly for doing the same shit but if we as a community literally put them on ignore we would win.

I agree that everyone should not buy from anyone that they don't agree with there prices or practices.

Choosing who you sell to on the other hand is not as easy when the ones you speak on are paying the most.

[Draznar]

I can't imagine getting into the hobby, seeing what people pay for Class A figures (along with the behavior needed to acquire them), and still deciding to go for a master set.

Apply this to Beastformers and you have my dilemma. Even if I could somehow convince myself that a tiny little (awesome) plastic monster was worth over $100, my wife would kill me.

As someone who is new to Beasts, it's almost defeating knowing that I'll likely never own a master set of every Beastformer. (Standard BB, likely, but the LBs are my problem).

[TMAN]

Great post.

The biggest issue i see besides good people just letting bad people get away with all this shit is the FACT that even the great people here still deal with the slimebags bastards.

Lets be real, we all know who the crooks are. It's beyond obvious. They are jokes at this point with egos so big they don't care. The problem i see constantly is even the guys here i trust 100% will still SELL to those shits. They still give props to those scumbags when they post their new back alley score. Why the hell do you guys do it? Why sell to the guy you KNOW has ripped off tons of people and lied dozens of times and has no regrets about it whatsoever? Yeah the shits have seemingly unlimited funds and no problems paying your asking price instantly but is it really worth it? Do you feel good sending those people MORE muscles? Do you really think you should be giving them attention and props when they take pics of their new stuff?

Honestly?

If you all stopped dealing with them, stopped buying their shit, stopped selling them anything, stopped making them customs, stopped quoting their pics or replying to them in any way they would eventually go away.

Yeah it's funny to watch them brag and lie and call out other people constantly for doing the same shit but if we as a community literally put them on ignore we would win.

I think this thread is wonderful! Out of all the comments so far, I have to say this post Echoes my thoughts on the issue perfectly! I've been here a year but I still consider myself a new jack compared to most. Ninety percent of everyone that I've dwelt with have been awesome! Only a few times have I been ripped off or taken advantage of, but it doesn't take much in a hobby this small to screw things up.

I wish I had more to give back to the community for all that it has given me.

[iwao]

PlasticSoul pretty much laid out what needs to happen if change is going to happen. It's easy for me to say I won't sell to certain people. I don't have anything they want. I get that people that have Class A's to sell want top dollar, and lately they've been able to get it without ebay. It is surprising how many in the community allow turds to quickly flip their figures here, but again, I'm not in the market for Class A figures and I understand the need to buy something you want when it's available whether you like the seller or not.

It's funny and sad when the current MUSCLE community collectively shoots itself in the foot. Somebody here should own a SR Drunken Master right now, and they wouldn't need over $1,000 to get it. All everyone needed to do when that auction came up was judge for themselves whether the pic was of a real MUSCLE, decide what they are willing to risk on it, and bid. Somehow the majority here thought the seller was the scumbag for pulling the auction after getting flooded with questions and probably instructions on how to handle their auction. That whole sightings thread for that auction was an embarrassment.

[soundwave]

I remeber printing ads in papers and hanging posters with tear away phone numbers to collect.

i think some people are just out to make a quick buck thinking because its old its valuable. Not to mention the fact that alot of newbies think buy it now prices are accurate values !#%!# and i actually was from AFA boards, and a member from here was paying me $25 for purple claws, class A and GPK figures, he sent me the class a pics and pics of gpk and said they were the last figures he needed!!! until a different member from HERE came on the AFA boards and called this guy out for ripping me off then he suddenly quit the AFA boards! I now consult the guy when i get stuff i'm not sure of THX BRO (you know who you are)

So with that said, there are good people and bad people, and we should work together and weed them out, and maybe suggest to newbies that they should make there deals in threads(public view) and only send private info through pms like name address? then maybe less people would get ripped off??? just a thought?

[Toxoviper]

Anyone else find it amusing that none of the guilty have bothered to make a appearance in this thread ?

[ironmask]

Anyone else find it amusing that none of the guilty have bothered to make a appearance in this thread ?

Why would they?

[Muscle Things]

haha, there should be an SNL sketch with us all kicking back hanging out, then news of an SR drops and we all turn into Mr. Peepers - ahhhh

[NamaNiku]

This is the shadiest period of M.U.S.C.L.E. collecting history here on LRG that I can recall, and I have seen it all. There have always been bad apples, but never so many rotten to the core. Thank the Kinniku Gods that I finished my collection years ago, and moved on to Kinkeshi and customs where the Friendship Power flows like wine and wild Choujin honey.

[89cpe]

I left the muscle section of this community like 3 years ago. Its a joke and I wouldnt want to deal with most people on this forum amymore. Most of you are scamming dooshy ripoff artists. There are a hand ful of people on here that are great and you know who you are. This forum is for gaining knowledge, meeting great people, trading, helping and selling to friends. I feel like a lot of people are using lrg as a source of income. Maybe get a better job amd stop being a piss ass so. We can all enjoy each other and the community for what it is.

And slowwww down these toylines arent going anywhere. Take your time. Enjoy it and stop amd smell the rubber once in a while. We have the rest of our lives to collect whats the rush

[jmckinnon316]

Hard not to agree with everything above.

When I decided to go for a MUSCLE Master Set, I actually let it consume me.

I stopped enjoying it. So I got out of the hobby and gave myself a break. Sold off almost every MUSCLE that I owned (1400+) and stayed back for a while.

The telling part of this story is that I only kept hold of a handful of figures - about 20 standard Flesh MUSCLE - ones that actually meant something to me when I was young.

It was at that point, I realised that I was looking for the wrong thing by collecting the master set. What I got, and very honestly, I might add, was a huge box full of MUSCLE men, and a Super Rare and I really didn't care about 95% of them.

I made some good friends on the board but I was feeling the pressure of collecting the set, hoping not to miss out on auctions for figures I needed etc etc.....I decided that was it.

When I got back into things, my main aim was (and still is) to collect a Flesh set. They are what I am passionate about. It's those guys that I love! I am about 50% the way there and enjoying collecting slowly but surely......

I bought a purple claw in January and have sold it again - instead ensuring a holiday break for the family this year!

It shouldn't even be a contest.

I have read the old threads - people offering others a free 'class A' purple # 3 figure just because 'they need it' and not looking for anything in return.

That's what MUSCLE should be, and I, for one, am full onboard with trying to make it a great place to be again.

J

[Biffard]

Great thread and I couldn't agree more!

My story is similar to jmckinnon (but without owning a SR ). I still lurk on LRG often but haven't purchased anything MUSCLE related for a long time. I will probably try for a flesh set again one day but I haven't found the urge to start collecting yet.

There is now doubt in my mind that the MUSCLE community could be more helpful and friendly and this thread is probably the best place to start. I don't think there is a solution that would quickly fix this problem. It would likely start with a few individuals making the change and then hopefully others would follow their examples.

My question is, how do we sustain a better community so that over the long term we don't end up were we are today? A stronger form of LRG governance?

[jmckinnon316]

Pretty soon, I'll want to say yes. But at what price?

Hey Chad, pretty soon you'll be able to say "Yes, that's one of the ones I need"

Assuming no-one hijacks my recent auction win

J

[Soupie]

Here's a thought that I've had for a long time that is semi-relevant here. From one perspective, there are 4 kinds of collectors. You could say there are: (1) Ethical-Social collectors, (2) Ethical-Unsocial collectors, (3) Unethical-Social Collectors, and (4) Unethical-Unsocial Collectors.

 Fourtypes.PNG   6.21K   16 downloads

Being a social collector - for example, being an active member of LRG - is not for everyone, for various reasons. Sometimes there is a bit of "tribalism" here at LRG. However, just because someone isn't super friendly, and active on the forum, doesn't mean they're doing something wrong.

However, if a collector is unsocial and unethical, it's very easy for collectors to "align" against that person. But it's important not to correlate the two, unsocial and unethical.

On the other hand, when a collector is social and unethical, it's very difficult to deal with. This is typically a person with "good" social skills that interacts with a lot of people. because of their social interaction, they tend to get ingrained in the community. This, I have found, is when the most drama occurs because people (social creatures) feel torn and have genuine differences of opinion about how to approach said person. Thoughts like, "Well, he's never ripped me off," or, "He's always treated me fairly."

There is a lot of gray area here. Should one stop dealing with someone simply because someone else is disgruntled with them?

Perhaps lists of concrete, unethical collecting actions and a list of "frowned upon" actions could be made. For example:

Unethical

Failure to pay for an item
Failure to ship an item after receiving payment
Threatening to physically harm a forum member
Shill bidding
Etc.

Frowned-upon

Contacting eBay sellers
Backing out of a agreed upon deal
Breaking up an in-progress deal between two board members
Giving a knowingly low-ball offer to a forum member
Etc.

Edited by Soupie, 01 March 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[walker13.1]

I'll agree that there should be something done when it's quite obvious that someone is jacking up the price.