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I wonder what the truth is? MUSCLE THINGS


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#1 TMAN

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 03:22 PM

http://www.ocweekly....nd-ocsd-6442742
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#2 ironmask

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 03:39 PM

Ugh. I'm going to leave this post up, but please proceed in good taste folks. This conversation could go off the rails pretty quickly.
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#3 Ericnilla

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:16 PM

He was fighting some inner demons, a bad situation became worse, and sadly it ended with him losing his life.

I don't think we need to go into any detail because nobody knows truly what happened or what was going on.
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#4 TMAN

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:35 PM

I often wonder about him, it saddens me. It makes a little more sense to me that he was shot by police unjustly. The first story that came out did not seem to add up. It just makes me wonder if he would still be alive if the police did things the right way.
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#5 Strontium Dog

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:46 PM

That's an old story, there's a more recent one on there from last month that shows the family settled for $400k.

 

Not a sum of money that makes up for losing a loved one, but you would hope punitive enough for the police to amend their policy of shooting naked vulnerable people through the heart.


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#6 Draznar

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:42 AM

That's an old story, there's a more recent one on there from last month that shows the family settled for $400k.

 

Not a sum of money that makes up for losing a loved one, but you would hope punitive enough for the police to amend their policy of shooting naked vulnerable people through the heart.

 

What a bloody pittance of a sum.

 

Judging by the general climate, I doubt anything will or has changed.


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#7 TheRiddler

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:23 AM

Sad story. The most recent one explains a lot more of what actually happened.
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#8 Sixthwizard

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:51 AM

Yes, this shit seemed to come out of nowhere. I talked with him not too long before this happened. It was actually about how he kind of ripped me off on a 'Fiend Club' box......and he basically said that he didn't remember anything about our transactions.......weird. I just let it go- but really weird because he was always prompt and fulfilling- even putting extra stuff in my boxes!!!

I don't believe what is reported by the media anymore. Ever. It is a money driven business that fails if they don't grab your attention. And who wants to listen to boring truth?

What seems more exciting? 1- police respond to a frantic 911 call to find a man bloody with self inflicted knife wounds, confusion erupts, police kill man with knife.
Or... 2- police respond to a fanatic 911 call, rush in like exterminators, kick down locked door to find a cowering naked man, all the while nobody says anything and then just gun him down point blank with a 12gauge and pistol........

Number 2 makes "news". Number 1 does not. This is why reporting is sucks ass. This is why nobody knows truths of matters.
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#9 Draznar

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 11:29 AM

I'd give your point some credibility if the guy's father didn't watch it happen. More importantly: this wasn't a source like CNN or Fox. I think what was reported here is exactly what happened.

Edited by Draznar, 15 January 2017 - 11:29 AM.

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#10 jkaris

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:23 PM

Anyone have a link to the newer story?
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#11 rothsauce

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:54 PM

http://www.ocregiste...ian-county.html

 

A recent article. Never knew anything about this but have been away from the community for a while. Absolutely tragic.


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#12 Draznar

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 02:54 AM

“Even if you assume the father’s version, so what?” Spitzer said. “(Ouzounian) had a knife, there was blood everywhere, he was filleting himself, and he stood up and came at the deputies. They didn’t have any choice but to shoot him. But we are in a very bad time when it comes to defending officer-involved shooting cases.”


I'm at a loss for words for how stupid this statement is. Since when is the volume of blood at a crime scene a reason to shoot somebody? This guy was grasping at straws to make a point.

Here is a similar event that took place relatively recently in Toronto. (As far as police shootings go in Canada.) The TL;DR is that a mentally ill person took over an LRT with a knife. He was on the vehicle alone, (so not a threat to anyone at that moment), and one of the officers thought he was going to run at him, or something. (I don't recall his reasoning right now.)  That officer got 6 years in prison.

https://www.thestar....g-sentence.html

Officers in Canada are trained to identify individuals like this, and also to de-escalate every situation as much as possible. To further the point, here's a quote from the judge:

“The precipitous shooting of Mr. Yatim contrary to Officer Forcillo’s training constitutes a fundamental failure to understand his duty to protect all life and not just his own.”


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#13 Strontium Dog

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 05:46 AM

I'm at a loss for words for how stupid this statement is.


Yes, it really is the worst kind of apologism for excessive force. It's also obviously incorrect; even in the US, police officers are routinely armed with less lethal weapons, like Tasers and pepper spray, so shooting someone is not the only option. And if they'd brought the right tools to the job in the first place, a shotgun with bean bag rounds. Even Wikipedia says:

Bean bag rounds are used when a person is a danger to themself or others but is not a direct threat in such a manner that deadly force would be appropriate - typically a suicidal individual with a bladed weapon. The round is intended to disable the person without killing him.

And I'd be surprised if police firearm training was less thorough than Wikipedia.
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#14 Sixthwizard

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 07:00 AM

I think that being a police officer in the US right now, is insane.  They get thrashed like this everyday. 

 

It terrible that Alec died.  Period.


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#15 Sixthwizard

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 07:49 AM

And I will also say- just because the Police officers responsible for this death are themselves responsible- the entire Police force is not to blame.  Lets remember that one!  You guys are talking like it is "the police" that are the problem. It wasn't the police but just a couple of guys on the force.

The problem is situations like this are not "trainable".  Violence isn't a line that's definitive the same, each time.  This is the trouble.  Trying to think when dealing with an unthinkable situation.


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#16 TheRiddler

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:27 AM

And I will also say- just because the Police officers responsible for this death are themselves responsible- the entire Police force is not to blame.  Lets remember that one!  You guys are talking like it is "the police" that are the problem. It wasn't the police but just a couple of guys on the force.
The problem is situations like this are not "trainable".  Violence isn't a line that's definitive the same, each time.  This is the trouble.  Trying to think when dealing with an unthinkable situation.


Completely agree. Blaming an entire group of people for a small minority doesn't seem right to me. I will always support the police as a whole but situations like this are difficult and sad. Sad for everyone.
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#17 Strontium Dog

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 09:25 AM

And I will also say- just because the Police officers responsible for this death are themselves responsible- the entire Police force is not to blame.  Lets remember that one!  You guys are talking like it is "the police" that are the problem. It wasn't the police but just a couple of guys on the force.
The problem is situations like this are not "trainable".  Violence isn't a line that's definitive the same, each time.  This is the trouble.  Trying to think when dealing with an unthinkable situation.



That's a strange observation, as I haven't seen anyone blame any individuals other than the ones who pulled the trigger.

However, the police force as an institution may bear some responsibility, depending on a variety of factors. Certainly, if Mr Spitzer's attitude that the officers had no choice but to kill a naked man in his own bathroom is at all indicative, then there seems to be a general disregard for civilian welfare within that police force, and a severe poverty of imagination. I have already given three alternative scenarios that would most likely have preserved life in this instance.

I don't agree at all that situations like this are untrainable. Officers are specifically trained to deal with situations like this. Most of the time, they manage to get through it without killing anyone.
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#18 Sixthwizard

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 09:38 AM

I've been in a number of very badly violent situations....there is zero training for it.  The brain reacts how it reacts.  It is not understandable.

 

Think of teachers- they are "trained to teach" "by the book"-   situations aren't always "by the book' though.  Kids are each unique with the way their brain interprets things.  This is the problem in schools.  Everyone gets the same treatment- when everyone is obviously different in their brains communications......Police training is the same.  Yes, they train you- but the situations are always controlled and planned out.  There is no live action training except on the daily actions.....

 

Where was the effin BodyCam when ya need it!  Every Police officer should beg for one of these.....These are a must!


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#19 Sixthwizard

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 09:49 AM

The more I think about this- 

 

I would like to suggest suicide by Police interaction as a huge possibility here.......

 

And I would also like to make a very bad joke- accepting the blowback totally of course......  He shouldn't have brought a knife to a gunfight hahaha...

 

Come on dudes.....its a very tasteless joke!  Comedians do it and everyone laughs- I know I am not a comedian, but........... hey- It made me laugh.


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#20 fuzzbuster

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:14 AM

The result of this incident is tragic, regardless of how it played out. With only conflicting accounts to go on, anything beyond that is purely conjecture.

One can only hope that Alec has found the peace that eluded him here on earth.

 

Now, before this thread devolves into arguments about police tactics, mental illness, or even more lame jokes at the expense of a dead man, it is time to say goodnight.

 

 


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