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#26 jkaris

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

Someone making an indistinguishable bootleg is definitely hurting the investment value for people, but for those who are collecting for the enjoyment of it, it is a boon.


If I am someone who spent tons of $$$ building a collection, this sucks because the value of my collection could drop like a rock.

If I don't have those pieces and can now get the figures (real or bootleg) for cheap, this is great.
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#27 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:29 PM

Someone making an indistinguishable bootleg is definitely hurting the investment value for people, but for those who are collecting for the enjoyment of it, it is a boon.


If I am someone who spent tons of $$$ building a collection, this sucks because the value of my collection could drop like a rock.

If I don't have those pieces and can now get the figures (real or bootleg) for cheap, this is great.


Totally correct. But no matter what the hobby is there will always be both types of collectors. So even if you are a casual collector who wants a reproduction accessory that is typically very expensive and hard to find--even if it's just for your personal use--just the act of you buying it and encouraging the production of the knock off hurts the hobby for the other guy.

This is one of the reasons I never got into high end Laser Beasts. I just hope the people who make AND buy these knockoffs realize that they are harming the hobby for the other people who originally repopularized these toys when they were spending the money and hunting down the hard to find items.
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#28 FANtomCore

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:42 PM

As it stands the seller only sold 4 repro sets and 1 clear carp repro which isn't going to flood the market, only time will tell if he produces more.
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#29 salazar4id

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

Crazy....

Maybe now I can swoop a skull grotess.!
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#30 Beastformers

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:06 PM

Its enough because you can be sure he'll start pooping out more items and the longer we accept this to happen the more our collections will get affected by it. I agree with you Jon about the repo's giving other people a chance to get these items as well for a more fair price and its something I'm happy about BUT NOT WITHOUT ANY MARKINGS. As that's something I just cannot agree with as I've spend way to much time chasing the real deal and spending to much $$ just to let it happen.

So I've send our friend imountainteacher the following message;

Hi my friend from China, I'd like to ask you a question about the Copies of Battle Beasts and Laser Beasts you've been selling on Ebay recently. There's a large worldwide group of collectors of these items out there which is not very happy with the way you've been selling these perfect copies of rare items. I'm one of these collectors as well and like many other I've spend a lot of time and $$ to get a nice and ORIGINAL collection together. BUT the items you are selling now are becomming a serious threat for our collections and a pollution for the global BB/LB market because they look to realistic! The items you are selling get good prices because of the fact the original pieces are very rare and valuable but we would like to prevent these pieces to get mixed up with your Copy items. So we'd like to aks you if you'd be willing to add a small mark on the items you produce to prevent this risk as at this moment it is seriously harming true collectors. Thanks in advance and let me know.

Let's hope he'll see the urge of it just as much as some of us do because it wont influence the prices he'll get for the copies.
If not we might consider to start bombing him the same request; ADD A MARK TO THOSE DAMN COPIES :)
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#31 PlasticSoul

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

Ha ha? WTF not funny at all Ericnilla I'm sure there would be people pissed off if they were MIMP or M.U.S.C.L.E.S
GJNL I'm with you on this one mate all the way. It sucks really badly a lot of killer carps came with a little sticker on there feet.


Do you collect muscles? There are TONS of bootlegs out there and they very often go for more money then the real thing when sold as bootlegs. There are people here who ONLY collect the bootleg versions. I guess when the toy in question has an average value of 50 cents buyers and sellers alike have a more relaxed attitude about it.

I get that it COULD hurt the value of your expensive beasts but in the end that's all it hurts. You still have your toys and i know you guys love them for more then the dollar value they carry.
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#32 Beastformers

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

I get that it COULD hurt the value of your expensive beasts but in the end that's all it hurts. You still have your toys and i know you guys love them for more then the dollar value they carry.


True, but in the end they also give me the certainty of getting a fair amount for them in case I've to sell them due to circumstances so from that point of view I also see it as an 'investment'. So that means it will not only hurt my collectors heart but it will also affect me from a financial point of view when there's an urge to sell, it WOULD hurt me if I knew I can only get a couple of $ for a high end LB for which I've spend over a $100 to get it.
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#33 PlasticSoul

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

True, but in the end they also give me the certainty of getting a fair amount for them in case I've to sell them due to circumstances so from that point of view I also see it as an 'investment'. So that means it will not only hurt my collectors heart but it will also affect me from a financial point of view when there's an urge to sell, it WOULD hurt me if I knew I can only get a couple of $ for a high end LB for which I've spend over a $100 to get it.


That would suck for sure but when you see toys as an investment you know just as with any other investment the value can go up just as fast as it goes down.

If you are really concerned about the value it might be best to dump them now for full value before things get out of hand with the bootlegs.
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#34 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:47 PM

The Transformer Fortress Maximus is being reissued next year. It was commanding upwards of $1000 complete.

Nearly all vintage Transformers are being either reissued or KO reissued.

The demand is far higher then supply.
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#35 Beastformers

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:01 PM

That would suck for sure but when you see toys as an investment you know just as with any other investment the value can go up just as fast as it goes down.

If you are really concerned about the value it might be best to dump them now for full value before things get out of hand with the bootlegs.


I don't mind and would accept my loss if the prices drop due to the lack of interest because that's what market is all about and the 'risk' you take but I can't accept the loss due to some Chinese backdoor factory who's ruining the market with pooping out fake stuff that's not marked as such.

Its the same complain I had with ENilla's custom Gumballs in the beginning, a simple mark did the job and we're all happy.

Edited by GJNL, 21 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.

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#36 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:06 PM

I don't mind and would accept my loss if the prices drop due to the lack of interest because that's what market is all about and the 'risk' you take but I can't accept the loss due to some Chinese backdoor factory who's ruining the market with pooping out fake stuff that's not marked as such.

Its the same complain I had with ENilla's custom Gumballs in the beginning, a simple mark did the job and we're all happy.


A mark or not would effect the value the same way.

Someone who wants a original will still want the original.

Someone who wants a cheaper alternative doesn't care about a mark or not.

Reissues are part of the hobby.
MOTU had a reissue series, TMNT had a reissue series, Transformers have many reissue including KO/reissues of very rare pieces.
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#37 Beastformers

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:10 PM

A mark or not would effect the value the same way.

Someone who wants a original will still want the original.

Someone who wants a cheaper alternative doesn't care about a mark or not.

Reissues are part of the hobby.
MOTU had a reissue series, TMNT had a reissue series, Transformers have many reissue including KO/reissues of very rare pieces.


Can't agree on that Rob because if the mark is missing and the repo is so realistic its been seen as an original one it IS influencing the market because it can get sold for the price of an original when it end up in the wrong hands while on the other hand the amount of them increases automatically resulting in the fact the item becomes less rare.

I'm not complaining about the cheaper alternatives because its good they are there but only as long as they can be distinguished as such.
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#38 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:00 PM

if the mark is missing and the repo is so realistic its been seen as an original one it IS influencing the market because it can get sold for the price of an original when it end up in the wrong hands


Exactly.
Customs that are clearly customs do not modify the market in the same way as customs that are not clearly distinguishable as customs.

No one should have ever get ripped off buying something they believe is real only to later discover it was a cleverly disguised knockoff. Nor should any collector have their toys go down in value because indistinguishable knockoffs enter the market.

It happened to Transformers worse than any other toy. It has happened to a lesser extent to GI Joes and Star Wars. Now it's entering the tiny niche market of high end Laser Beasts. People and their unscrupulous practices and insatiable greed is bullshit. That's all this is. And it has actually prevented me from ever desiring to collect high end Laser Beasts.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 06:04 PM.

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#39 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

If Transformers are down in value, I would hate to see what prices would be without the reissues and KOs.

Here is a original Piranacon sold for $172.50
http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

Here you can purchase a reproduction Piranacon for $36.00
http://www.bigbadtoy...ail&picture=out
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#40 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

If Transformers are down in value, I would hate to see what prices would be without the reissues and KOs.


What's your point? Because your point is not addressing the whole point about why knockoffs are bad for the hobby.

Price is one concern, yes. Knockoffs will hurt the market. But legitimate collectors who value having original, hard to find items also do not want to worry about whether the accessory or figure they are buying is real or fake.

Knockoffs cause us all to worry about whether our next purchase will be real or not. If customs all had an artist's mark this wouldn't be an issue, because it would be obvious what was real or not.

Can anyone defend NOT having artists include a mark to distinguish a custom from the real thing? If you think it's ok to not mark it, please offer your defense.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 07:28 PM.

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#41 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

I don't mind and would accept my loss if the prices drop due to the lack of interest because that's what market is all about and the 'risk' you take but I can't accept the loss due to some Chinese backdoor factory who's ruining the market with pooping out fake stuff that's not marked as such.

Its the same complain I had with ENilla's custom Gumballs in the beginning, a simple mark did the job and we're all happy.


If more come into the market you will have to accept.

We do not know if Takara is re-releasing these themselves.
What would you do then ?


Exactly.
Customs that are clearly customs do not modify the market in the same way as customs that are not clearly distinguishable as customs.

No one should have ever get ripped off buying something they believe is real only to later discover it was a cleverly disguised knockoff. Nor should any collector have their toys go down in value because indistinguishable knockoffs enter the market.

It happened to Transformers worse than any other toy. It has happened to a lesser extent to GI Joes and Star Wars. Now it's entering the tiny niche market of high end Laser Beasts. People and their unscrupulous practices and insatiable greed is bullshit. That's all this is. And it has actually prevented me from ever desiring to collect high end Laser Beasts.


Fear of reproduction has nothing to do with you not owning High End Laser Beasts. Get real.
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#42 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

Fear of reproduction has nothing to do with you not owning High End Laser Beasts. Get real.


What the hell is that supposed to mean? That is the ENTIRE reason why I don't collect high numbered Laser Beasts. I've been collecting Battle Beasts for 10 years. When I joined this board 7 years ago and people first tinkered with the idea of customizing high numbered beasts I made a conscious decision to sell the high numbered figures I had at the time and never get back into it. It's also the same reason why I sold all my g1 Transformers many years ago.

Hey toxo:
And I suppose your defense of knockoffs is because of your poor money management that forced you to sell part of your Battle Beasts collection. Now you would like to reacquire those items as knockoffs because you can't afford the real thing. Note the sarcasm. In reality I don't care why you just recently sold a lot of your Beasts. And I wouldn't speculate as to why you did or why you're defending knockoffs. But that you basically just did to me about my decision to not collect all the Laser Beasts.

Take what people say at face value and don't be a douche. I don't collect high numbered Lasers because of the knockoffs that first entered the market around 2005 when people like TheGodbeast starting making customs of them that were difficult to distinguish from the real thing. I decided at that point that there was no reason for me to collect something that was difficult to verify as real or not.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 07:35 PM.

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#43 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

What's your point? Because your point is not addressing the whole point about why knockoffs are bad for the hobby.

Price is one concern, yes. Knockoffs will hurt the market. But legitimate collectors who value having original, hard to find items also do not want to worry about whether the accessory or figure they are buying is real or fake.

Knockoffs cause us all to worry about whether our next purchase will be real or not. If customs all had an artist's mark this wouldn't be an issue, because it would be obvious what was real or not.

Can anyone defend NOT having artists include a mark to distinguish a custom from the real thing? If you think it's ok to not mark it, please offer your defense.


Who are you to determine knock offs are bad for the hobby ?

I look forward to the Chinese Knockoffs. They even have original releases.
They recently knocked off a $1000+ exclusive transformer.

If a collector wants a original they know to buy from a credible source and never from a Chinese seller.

Since you do not own anything of any value your opinion is not necessary here.
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#44 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

Since you do not own anything of any value your opinion is not necessary here.


Again, don't be a douche. You've been collecting 2 years, and I even sold you part of my misb collection when you first joined the board. I've been collecting Battle Beasts for 10 years, been a member of the board for over 7 years and gone through owning most of the figures in the series. As I said in the previous post, I made a conscious decision to NOT collect high numbered Lasers because of this custom problem. That's why I do not own any today and will never buy them again.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 07:38 PM.

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#45 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That is the ENTIRE reason why I don't collect high numbered Laser Beasts. I've been collecting Battle Beasts for 10 years. When I joined this board 7 years ago and people first tinkered with the idea of customizing high numbered beasts I made a conscious decision to sell the high numbered figures I had at the time and never get back into it. It
's also the same reason why I sold all my g1 Transformers many years ago.


And I suppose your defense of knockoffs is because of your poor money management that forced you to sell part of your Battle Beasts collection. Now you would like to reacquire similar items for less as knockoffs because you can't afford the real thing. Note the sarcasm.

Take what people say at face value and don't be a douche. I don't collect high numbered Lasers because of the knockoffs that first entered the market around 2005 when people like TheGodbeast starting making customs of them that were difficult to distinguish from the real thing. I decided at that point that there was no reason for me to collect something that was difficult to verify as real or not.


You had the chance to own these amazing toys at a fraction of their current value now.
You made a poor decision not purchasing and building a set.

Marty's customs have not made any noticeable effect on the value of BB/LBs.

I have sold no items I wish to reacquire.
I have a complete set of 1-112+Vehicles with all Laser Beasts MIB but shield 6 & brain mouse.

Douche ?
You add nothing to this site and can't stand when you get involved in a conversation.
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#46 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:46 PM

Again, don't be a douche. You've been collecting 2 years, and I even sold you part of my misb collection when you first joined the board. I've been collecting Battle Beasts for 10 years, been a member of the board for over 7 years and gone through owning most of the figures in the series. As I said in the previous post, I made a conscious decision to NOT collect high numbered Lasers because of this custom problem. That's why I do not own any today and will never buy them again.


You made the decision because of your financial situation.

Creating constant threads on selling your last remaining toys or trading for what you cannot afford.

Been collecting for 10 years and have NOTHING to show for it.
Been a member of this forum for 7 years and added nothing of value to any conversation.
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#47 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

You add nothing to this site and can't stand when you get involved in a conversation.


Then ignore me. I've been here for 7 and half years and it seems like the only people who dislike me are those people who have been here for only a short time like you. And honestly I just don't give a shit.

But I do care when people engage in behavior that undermines people who have been collecting for many years. When people encourage knockoffs they make it harder for collectors to find genuine items. When people encourage ripoffs they undermine the value of other people's collectibles. Knockoffs ruin it for people who care. If people want to make CUSTOMS that are their artistic originals, that's great. Even if they want to reproduce items for their own use or for the use of others, that's great too, but only if it doesn't degrade the hobby. That's why artist's marks that distinguish customs from originals is absolutely crucial.

So what is your defense against artist's marks that would distinguish a custom from the real thing?

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 07:52 PM.

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#48 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Been collecting for 10 years and have NOTHING to show for it.


Oh, Sweet freakin' Jesus. This is precisely why I got out of collecting several years back and kept only the one thing that had any sentimental value to me: my 1-76 set.

As I continue to sell items from my collections or things I still buy for fun for resale, I will accept certain items such as low numbered Laser Beasts in trade because it's enjoyable. Or if it's convenient, I will accept silver or gold as payment to save me the trouble of buying my certain amount of metals every month. I enjoy selling toys, and that's why I still do it.

We as a community have some pretty major psychological issues if we're going to measure our worth by the size of our collections. Many of us on this forum could own any toy from any series or an entire series in any condition if we actually wanted to spend our money that way. But for many of us toy collecting is just not that important in our big list of priorities in life. For me, because I don't even actively collect, toy collecting as a priority is even lower than most. Having said that, I really do enjoy reselling toys, and that's why I still frequent toy collecting communities.
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#49 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:04 PM

Then ignore me. I've been here for 7 and half years and it seems like the only people who dislike me are those people who have been here for only a short time like you. And honestly I just don't give a shit.

But I do care when people engage in behavior that undermines people who have been collecting for many years. When people encourage knockoffs they make it harder for collectors to find genuine items. When people encourage ripoffs they undermine the value of other people's collectibles. Knockoffs ruin it for people who care. If people want to make CUSTOMS that are their artistic originals, that's great. Even if they want to reproduce items for their own use or for the use of others, that's great too, but only if it doesn't degrade the hobby. That's why artist's marks that distinguish customs from originals is absolutely crucial.

So what is your defense against artist's marks that would distinguish a custom from the real thing?


I don't collect for value and never have.

Do you think I wanted to pay thousands of dollars for my BB/LB collection ?
I worked hard searching to get my collection at a good price because I will not pay Ebay prices.

I care about my collection, you cannot take away the fact that they are original toys.
But you really think I wanted to pay so much money ?
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#50 cassel87

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:05 PM

customs make it possible for poor, lower middle class chimps like myself able to afford items they really want, but wouldnt be able to afford otherwise. like marrying a funny looking girl with a great body, i can live with that.
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