20 replies to this topic

[jkaris]

Here is a thread to reflect or sound off on your feelings about 9/11.

[arforbes]

I just cannot believe it has been a year already since this horrible tragedy happened. It feels like yesterday...

[doc_moore_j]

Not that anybody will forget, but I will never forget what was going on with me on 911. I was on vacation in Japan (Kumamoto). It happened around 9-10pm their time and all I had to watch it on was Japanese television. I can understand and translate my fair share but with everything going on, and the reporters talking so fast, I did not know what the hell was going on. I thought at first it was some kind of freak accident, but then the second one hit. I watched it all night trying to understand what I could and first thing in the morning I had to call base because I am in the military. I was close to being crap out of luck because they were going to gank my vacation and all the flights in and out of japan and the US were cancelled. I had to call the Air Force base in Yokota to tell them I was in japan and might have to report to them as soon as I could get out of Kumamoto. They ended up not cancelling my leave but my flights back to the US were indeed cancelled. I got new tickets for the day they opened up international flight again. Boy those first few days sucked arse big time. It was on every channel even in Japan. I felt helpless over there having no way to get back to the States and back to base where I could help my fellow country men. The rest of my time in Japan everybody and their mom asked my opinion because I was the only American in Kumamoto it seemed. I gave them all the same response when they asked. How would you feel if several thousand of your countries people just got murdered? They usually ended the conversation there. I wasn't rude about it, I just thought it was a stupid, pointless question. I made it back to the States with no problems, and back to Nevada where I serve my country well. I am a Navy Corpsman (medic, EMT, etc) I cheat death and save lives, and I work on the base where "Top Gun" is. maybe you have heard of them. They are the fighter pilots getting sent over seas to kick arse and take names. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary I can not believe it. Be safe guys, and always keep an eye out for wierd crap that isn't normal. I have a request for you, think about us in the military. Think about those over seas protecting your freedom and rights to live. I consider all of you friends, and I hope you consider me one in return. I could very well be the next one over there fighting for you guys, I hope you would think about me then, and wonder how I am doing. If any of you lost a friend or loved one, my heart goes out to you. I love you guys. Be safe.

[el midgetron]

I am not a huge flag waver. I believe in what America stands for (at least as our founding fathers designed it). But I cant stand the backlash to kicking Saddam's arse. It seems like 75% for the planet is against it. We are going to war with Iraq, so just face it. People are going to die. But it is in our best interests. During WWII the United States was reluctant to enter the war. It took Pearl Harbor to finally open our eyes. Have we not learned from the past? Will it take an attack backed by Saddam to wake us up? He is a bad man and he dosnt like us. He would be more than happy to provide terrorists with chemical, biological or nuclear material to hurt us. But no one wants to admit it. To those people I say, go back to drinking your super big gulps and watching Britney Spear's orbs. You will figure it out eventually. I am not saying that every angle of American policy is legit. We can worry about that shet when we are safe. Its like we are in a car speeding towards a brick wall and everyone is worried about putting our seat belt on instead of hitting the breaks.

[Adamantiumwulf]

The images of the smoking towers and them colapsing, The side of the pentagon in ruins will be forever ingraned in my memory.

God bless the people who lost there lives and the families who lost loved ones.

May God have mercy on the souls of those who have so little value for human life.

Never forget the sacrafices that our military makes so that we may continue to live our lives and enjoy the freedoms that we have.

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.

[Warsman]

A sad day it was, but I'm just sick of all the media covering it for the past 365 days.

money value is down to 9/11
jobs down to 9/11
peoples moral is down to 9/11
crime increased due to 9/11

I mean i've heard so much in the newspaper and stuff about 9/11
it makes me sick, some media use 9/11 as a scape goat.

and today i'm not afriad to go outta me house neither was i on 9/12/01
it's just i'd feel more sorry and stuff it it wasn't for the media

it's time to stand strong and move on.
We will have a time a and place for morning, as well as joy

War on Iraq and cuba and all the arabic countries is crazy
and i fear nukes cause according to the last search i did this little planet can blow itself up 5 times over with all the nuclear weapons out there not
to mention if the nukes hit nuclear power plants.

[Tortle]

But I cant stand the backlash to kicking Saddam's arse.

In my opinion, the US needs solid proof that Saddam is developing weapons of mass destruction, otherwise, the Arab world will turn against us because they will think that we're on a crusade against Arabs. I think that Saddam probably would like to nuke the hell out of us. But it doesn't matter that I THINK that... we need proof of guilt, or it's butt-wrong if we invade Iraq. Remember that a man is "presumed innocent until proven guilty..."

Have we not learned from the past?

That's interesting that you bring this up... there have been many instances in the past when justice and our values are completely abandoned in times of crisis. The Japanese concentration camps during WWII, the communist trials of the 50s... and I think now is one of those times. For example, nobody cares how the captured Taliban are treated... the criminals' rights are thrown RIGHT out the window. Everyone wants to bomb Iraq, based on little or no proof... presuming that he's guilty until proven innocent. September 11th did happen and it was a horrible tragedy, but we have to remember our morals.

America is great, not for its leaders, not for its military... but for its system of government that protects human morality and equal rights. We can't just abandon that system when things get a little rough.

Now I will go back to drinking my Super Big Gulp and watching Britney Spears' wonderous orbs...

-Nathan

[jkaris]

I remember walking in to the living room on 9/11/01. I turned on the radio, KFBK 1530 AM in Sacramento, and was shocked to hear that there had been 2 planes flown into the WTC, and one into the Pentagon. The first thing I though about was the book by Tom Clancy, where it begins directly after a disgruntled Japanese pilot had just flown a jumbo jet into the Capital building and killed the President and most all of the legislators. It was a wierd feeling.
I sat glued to the radio (as I don't have a tv) listening for all the latest updates. I was in sales at the time, so I didn't have a set time to go into the office. I used that opportunity to stay next to the stereo, and eventually went in around 11 am PST. The whole day was just a wierd feeling. We had finally been attacked on US soil to some success. It was crazy. I really don't remember too much of the rest of the day.
In the month following 9/11, I do believe the media made entirely TOO MUCH out of it. It was ALL that was on. Everything was referrenced back to 9/11. It became annoying, like a good song that is played entirely too much. 9/11 became played out. What a shame.
We still have a flag hanging outside our house. I just recently took the flag picture out of my back window in my Civic. My love of country, as well as those of our neighbors is stronger than ever, although mine has always been strong.
People say they attacked us for thier hatred of the western ways, their hatred of our freedoms. And while that may be partially true, alot of their hatred stems from our foreign policy. Our support for Israel vs. the Palestinians. That's a joke. Israel has stabbed us in the back numerous times. Both governements are run by terrorists, I think we should retaliate against both. When we cowered down in Mogadishu, because the administration didn't want to appear to be "racist", that sent a false signal to them that we were weak. How wrong they were. I'm glad that it happened on Bush's watch, instead of Clinton or Gore, because I don't believe either one had the balls to do what needed to be done.
Clinton should have took Bin Laden when he had the chance, when Sudan offered him to us on a silver platter 3 times. But even if we would have gotten Bin Laden, someone else in Al Quaida would have continued on. ALot of blame could be placed on our own government, who could have prevented this, well before it happened, if it would spend money to upgrade it's computer network (The FBI was still using i386 and i486 computers), instead of the myriad of pork barrel spending and social give aways that it routinely allocates to get more votes.
But it happened, and no amount of blame can change it. We must move forward, and hopefully the dumb asses in Washington get the clue this time. We need an active defense against creeps like Osama and Saddam The best defense is a good offense.
On Iraq and Sodomy Hussein. When the weapons inspectors were booted out, they had ample evidence that he had weapons of mass destruction. It isn't a theory or suspicion, it is a known fact. But noone had the balls to do anything about it. Even Bush 41 didn't have the balls to oust Saddam. The man is a lunatic, he should be removed. I don't advocate the US getting involved in another country's politics, but when it is in the best interest of the US, to prevent itself from harm, I'm all for it. They didn't remove Saddam from power back in the early 90's because of the havoc it would have caused in the regon. As unstable as the nut is, he is holding the stability of the reegion in his hands. If Saddam were to fall, you would have Iran, Turkey and the other neighboring nations running in for a land grab. That is the main reason he still stands. My solution? Annex Iraq. We should have annexed Afghanistan also. 2 more states. A better life for the citizens of those 3rd world countries. Strategic placement for our military babses. Iraq has oil. eff the Saudi's, eff Iran. These are nations that support terrorist activities. They have PAID people to attack us. Maybe we should annex them also.
Now I realize that we will never annex these nations, but we should. It is in our best interests to prevent attacks on our nation.
What will happen will be this.
Saddam will be toppled by other factions in his regime. We will support this, as well as make sure that the succeeding regime is Pro-USA. Our involvement will be public knowledge. We will then do the same to Iran, but US invovelment will be hidden, and will most likely not even be hinted at. When Iran and Iraq become Pro-USA, it will open up the oil markets, and our reliance on the Saudi's oil will lessen. Israel will crush the Palestinian government, and there will be a short period of peace, until Hammas sets up a new one.
I think that we should annex Israel, the next time they betray us. Someone needs to have the balls to do this. They have attacked our ships, trying to pass it off as their foes work, so that we would then rally behind them. I think that the Mossad had a hand in 9/11. There are too many circumstances that point to their involvement, as well as their track record of stabbing the US in the back.
My stance is this, "If any governement wishes to attack the US, or directly support those who do, we should then attack and topple that regime, and then annex the nation as our own". If they don't eff with us, then I think we should stay out of their business.
All in all, 9/11 had been a wake up call for the USA.
Listening last night to the ABC special sponsored by the Red Cross, I almost cried. It is sad to think of those who have lost loved ones, for no other reason than for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was sad. My heart goes out to them.
A couple wierd coincidences that have occurred, I read my daughter a story each night, before she goes to bed. Currenlty we are reading the one about the kid who gets chocolate fever, and breaks out with chocolate spots all over. Anyways, the chapter we got to last night was called "Hijacking". And then this morning, putting change into the vending machine, out of all the quarters in my pocket, I pulled a NY one. i know these are just coincidences, but they struck me as funny, so I figured I'd share them.

Hope your day isn't to glum.

[el midgetron]

Well, bad news. We are never going to have proof until he uses them. Saddam didn't cooperate with weapons inspectors before and he wont again. Why didn't and wont he? Because he has shet to hide. We know he has developed them in the past. Do you really think he has lost interest in these capabilities? Like, as if he grew out of that phase or something? Saddam is a bad man. He runs his government like a Mafia kingpin. When he first came into power he assembled the entire government in a large room. He then proceeded to read the names of people he feared would betray him. AS the names were read, those people were taken outside and shot. Nice due process huh? As far as people being guilty until proven innocent, that's our judicial system. There are plenty of places in the world were you are guilty if they say so. We don't want to lock up Saddam any way. We just want to kill him.
As far as pissing off the other Arab nations, big surprise. It does not matter what we do they are going to find a reason to hate us anyway. Look at Afghanistan. We gave them weapons to fight the Soviets. Then people like Osamma get pissed at us because we didn't do more for them after the war!! I guess we should have let the Soviets kick there arses. They would have been much better off then.
Ok, no one thinks what happened to the American Japanese people in this country during WWII was right. Not to mention the Native Americans. But that cant even be compared to the Taliban prisoners or to invading Saddam. Because none of them are US citizens. Those governments don't even give there own people those rights. The Taliban prisoners are being treated with ample care and respect. They are much better off as our prisoners than they would be as prisoners of the Taliban.
This is a type of war that we will most likely never win. If you want to worry about the "rights" of people who will fly airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of men, women and children, go ahead. You live in a fantasy land of political correctness. Next, people will be saying that we cant call them "terrorists" any more because some members of the terror groups find the term offensive. Give me a Break.

[Tortle]

Ah! I knew I would get a good response out of you. Politics and religion are the only truly great topics for discussion, I say...

Saddam didn't cooperate with weapons inspectors before and he wont again.

That's fine. I'm all for invading that putz if he doesn't cooperate. But we have to determine that first. Aparently, everybody (including American inspectors) is saying that when we did do our inspections, they found nothing. Of course, if he had anything, he probably hid it well... but we need a reason, some SOLID reason to invade Iraq, or nobody's going to back us.

As far as people being guilty until proven innocent, that's our judicial system. There are plenty of places in the world were you are guilty if they say so....
*edit, edit, edit*
...[what happened to the American Japanese people] cant even be compared to the Taliban prisoners or to invading Saddam.  Because none of them are US citizens. Those governments don't even give there own people those rights. The Taliban prisoners are being treated with ample care and respect. They are much better off as our prisoners than they would be as prisoners of the Taliban.

So... you're saying that we should treat our international enemies the way their governments would treat POWs? I disagree. I think we should set the world standard for justice, and use American judicial frameworks and morality for the prosecution of these fools. Otherwise, how would we be different from the Taliban government? We'd disvalue human rights just as much as they did.

I would like to remind you that we are also blatently disregarding POW laws set up by NATO, under a false pretense that the captured Taliban are somehow not prisoners of war. Hm.

It's tragically comedic to see that we are becoming that which we hate most.

-Nathan

[jkaris]

Aparrently, everybody (including American inspectors) is saying that when we did do our inspections, they found nothing.

Actually, the few who are vocal now have changed their tune dramatically. If you go back to their statements back when they were first ejected, they were touting the evidence of WMD that they had uncovered as well as the necessity of dethroning Saddam without delay before he had a chance to amass more and get spunky.

I think we should set the world standard for justice, and use American judicial frameworks and morality for the prosecution of these fools.

I agree to some extent. We should treat the POW's fairly, as most are just fighting for their county as we are, however most fought under threat of death if they didn't. But as far as the ring leaders, those who led the assault, there should be no trial. They should be shot on site. Period. Saddam should be assasinated, or better yet, subjected to biological attack, similar to his attack against the Kurds.

As far as NATO, we should honor agreements that we helped forge, but concerning the UN, I think we should get the eff out and tell them to go eff them selves. The USA should not be subservient to ANY outside entity. Especially the UN.

[doc_moore_j]

I'd like to comment or reflect on what you guys are saying. I may be looking at this from a different perspective because I am in the Military, but I agree and don't agree with what each and every one of you is saying. Do I think we should wipe out Saddam? Hell yes!!!! Do I think terrorists have rights and need protected? Fu.ck NO!!!! Just like any murderer in prison I think they deserve DEATH. As far as the "concentration camps" on American soil goes, these were not concentration camps, these were relocation camps for the better interests of our county's security. They differ in that our prisoners were NOT starved to death, shot on a daily basis, tortured, infested with the plague and other disease, experimented on, and raped. Do I agree with them? NO. Was it one of the United States biggest mistakes? YES. Confining Americans only due to their ethnic heritage is a ridiculous. But the treatment of our prisoners is not even in comparisin to the prisoners of other countires, or terrorist groups for that matter. We follow rules, rules governed by the Geneva Conventions to protect the right of prisoners, and these rules state what can and can not be considered fair treatment during time of battle. If we do not abide by these rules, we are guilty of what is called a War Crime, big no no. Do you think Saddam cares about War Crimes? Fu.ck no. All of these whiners and activists who claim killers, and terrorists have rights, are people who have never lost a son in a terrorist act of violence or shot in school by some as.shole who doesn't like they way he is treated. I do not think waiting for a nuclear weapon, or a bio chemical weapon that would make 911 look like nothing in comparisin to attack Saddam or whoever else is creating these weapons of mass destruction would be a smart idea. Do you guys realise if a nuke were to explode on our soil, it would be decades before that soil would be safe to live on again, maybe never. Do you realise how painful nerve gas, and other bio chemical weapons are? Blood agents Blood and Choking agents first cause extreme pain, and end up killing you by drowning you in your own blood and mucous trapped in your lungs. Do I want an additional ten thousand of my country men to die like that before I chose to do something? Nope. I do not believe however one should be so hasty in wanting war against everybody. I joined the Navy at the end of Desert Storm, soon after Saddam was starting crap again. I remember sitting in McDonalds with a buddy one day and all these rich stuck up preppy boys were talking loud, and saying things to the like of "Yeah we should go kick his arse, kill them all, etc..." and my buddy said "Are you guys going to sign up? Are you going to go over there and do it?" I totally agreed with him. Sure all the snot nosed preppy kids with rich daddies can talk sh.it, but it isn't them, and their children going to war to get shot at and killed. Leave the decision to go to war to the people who are trained, and chosen to decide who and who not to kill. Sure I have my opinions, but if Bush says go kill this guy, I will, it is my job, and he has the authority to do so. I will tell you this, I will be the first one to go over there if I have the chance. I have served with the Marines as a Navy medic and that is where I will go if they need me. All others can join in if they want. As far as patriotism goes. I too have always been a patriot, I get teary eyed when I hear the National Anthem, I get upset, and sad when I see people disgracing the flag in any way. Do I have an American flag on my antenna or on my windshield? No. I was a patriot before thousands of my own were murdered, still am, I am not going to fork over cash to some flag making company that wants to capitalize off of our tragedy. News, flag makers (that were not flag makers before), magazines etc who gain profit because of 911 can suck my d.ick. I have a couple American flag t-shirts, one of which I have had for ten years. I was wearing it the other day, it has a real unique design of the American flag made into a flower with the stars in the middle and the red and white as the petals. It is beautiful, I got asked the other day oooh where did you get that cool shirt. I told the lady I got it in Chicago ten years ago, so good luck finding one, I was a patriot before patriotism was a profitible market. I am not sure if any of this makes sense to you guys. If I was in charge personally would want to destroy all that oppsed us for the best interests of the country. If I knew Saddam was planning or even thinking of killing one American individual, there would be no more Saddam. America, like it or leave it, oppose it and be destroyed. Just my thoughts, take them for what they are worth.

[el midgetron]

I think we have good cause to invade Iraq. If it will take a slap on the face to convince the poplutation, go ahead and wait. It will come.

I am not saying that we should treat them as their country would. We havent started to take them into soccer stadiums and executing them yet have we?? I personaly have no problems with their treatment. What is so bad about it? Do you want them to stay at a Holiday Inn where they can order room service and watch hotel porn?? As far as not following the POW laws under NATO. These guys arent following any kind of "organized laws" of warfare. They arent at war with the United State's govenment or military. They are at war with its people. People like you and me. That is who they attacked on 9/11.

Becoming what we hate most?? That is so tired. We are far from becoming the Taliban or any other nation that abuses civil liberties or human rights. We have repeatedly gone to war and died to protect other nations from abusive governments. We are also constantly sending aid to countries in need. But all of a sudden, when some terrorists have to sleep in cages on a tropical beach, we are sinking to the level of a snake's bellly. We are even allowing them to pratice their religion. The very religion they corrupted and declared Jihad against us.

[EVOM]

Here`s my 2 cents and then some...........First off I want to say to "doc" that I`m sorry You were in Japan when that happened. That sucks. I`m friends with many people who were and are in the armed forces and all of you are always in my thoughts, and you are all by far greater people than I!!!! Second is this, war has changed so much over the the centurys and will continue to do so. In the past when nations were at war civilian lives were on the line. Look at how many people were killed as a result of the massive bombings in WW2, Europe was leveled. These days with all this political correctness and so called human rights going on, why do we even bother? Our soldiers came back from vietnam to be greeted by protestors, we pull out of somalia because one of our soldiers is dragged through the streets on national tv!!!! The 17 soldiers who lost their lives died in vain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What little respect I had for clinton deteriorated when he had us pull out of there! Now we fight a new war where already so many people are "worried" about the captured taliban- what are they eating?How are they clothed? Will they be allowed to have lawyers present etc. I hate to say this but at some point you lose your rights plain and simple. You can`t do whatever you want and expect to be treated fairly. Everyone has rights yes, but evil must be dealt with. You people don`t want to know what I would do to the captured taliban. It would give new meaning to the word- inhumane. War is truly hell, it just plain sucks! But drastic times do call for drastic measures!!!!!! I`m for racial profiling to a certain point, and I`m willing to sacrifice some of my rights for this country that I LOVE and would gladly give my life for!!!!!! As for iraq- a week ago a British tornado jet hit an Iraqi bunker with a bomb and it ripped the roof off to reveal about 13 planes (unmaned drones) that had special fittings on the wings for canisters that could spray enough enough toxins to cover a whole city, troops etc. Unfortunately we will waite till Iraq strikes us or our allies before we wake up and act!!!! I don`t like war in general but we must wake up!!! This is no guessing game with iraq!!!!!!!! If were going to fight a war then lets all pull together, get behind our troops who will be called and lets FIGHT!!!!!!!!!! Do you think the taliban or iraq or whoever cares about OUR rights? 2 wrongs don`t make a right but war is totally different!! Accept it!! I will not get too carried away with this because you are all fellow collectors and we M.U.S.C.L.E. fanatics have too stick together.

[Tortle]

I think we have good cause to invade Iraq.

Well, what's the cause? I mean, maybe you're right. I think you're assuming that I'm against any sort of invasion of Iraq. I would be for it, if I were aware of some real evidence.

I personaly have no problems with {the Taliban POWs} treatment. What is so bad about it?

Truthfully, I don't know. But my crap detector was screaming when some White House/Pentagon official said "Well, they're not technically POWs, so we don't have to treat them as according to the treaty of blah, blah..." Hm... sounds fishy to me...

We are far from becoming the Taliban or any other nation that abuses civil liberties or human rights.

I agree... but that is because we repect human rights. In my opinion, the proposition of many people to essentially torture Taliban POWs puts us directly on their level. Of course I don't mean that they should "stay at a Holiday Inn where they can order room service and watch hotel porn" (although I commend you on making a stereotypical assumption and putting words in my mouth). Here is my exact statement: Taliban prisoners should be treated the same as other POWs both in accordance to international law and also our own American judicial system. I would consider doing otherwise to be immoral.

Becoming what we hate most?? That is so tired.

I have noticed that people are angrily prosecuted and ridiculed for any sort of anti-war statements. Aren't I just expressing my opinion? Why must every war debate degrade into insults where everybody ends up hating each other?

-Nathan

[el midgetron]

Nathan, I was not insulting you (not sure what you are even referring to), nor do I hate you. I also wasn't trying to "put words in your mouth".

[doc_moore_j]

I think we have turned this thread around, and made it into a large political debate istead of what Johnny intended it to be used for. As Tortle said, politics, and religion are two of the easiest things to debate or argue about, because everybody has his/her own opinions on the matter. Jay I do not think anybody here hates anybody, we are all friends, just as I will go to sleep tonight regardless of what all of your opinions are on 911 and still consider you guys muscle head geeks ha ha. I have enjoyed this thread, I have enjoyed reading the different views of you guys, and I think nothing more or less of any of you from what you have posted. I may disagree with some, and agree more with others, but still want to joke around, and tease toy dealers, and blue zords and such. Lets not turn this into a pissing contest, lets reflect. Or if we are to argue, lets argue about something less dramatic, like how cool the Denver Broncos are. I want to finish this day with as many friends as I woke up with.

[Tortle]

I wasn't necessarily referring to you insulting me, but it seemed like that was the direction the debate was going, so I thought I'd bring it up before things got out of hand. Usually I'm okay with insults, but my one pet peeve is when people make fun of my flippers-and-sneakers fashion statement. Then, I get uber-bitter!

Anyway, screw it. We'll agree to disagree!

Sorry if I was a bit harsh... Mr. Spock has much to teach me about emotional control!

Or, maybe that face should be more like...

-Nathan

[doc_moore_j]

Have I mentioned I love you guys.

[jkaris]

I take a lousy 2 hr lunch, and what do I miss? Just kidding. I think that regardless of our different opinions (which, if you go back and re-read this thread, aren't terribly far apart) we all still share a strong common bond. Our obsession with molded plastic.
Back to the original topic of this thread, I am glad in a way for the events of 9/11/01. The atrocities that took place have drawn this generation of Americans together lightyears closer than what we saw pre-9/11. And for that, I am grateful.

[EASports]

The atrocities that took place have drawn this generation of Americans together lightyears closer than what we saw pre-9/11. And for that, I am grateful.

Yeah that's true... But what about the countries "new found" sense of patriotism? You still see all the cars driving around with the flags or go america stickers all over. I think that 9/11 has in some respect created a false sense of patriotism. It's turned loving your country into something trendy. Not that it's a bad thing, but I think that the patriotism that all of a sudden sprang up after 9/11 was somewhat forced down our throats by those who had the urge to exploit the fresh market... And you might say that there's nothing like an attack like this to stir true patriotism. That's true to an extent, but I still think that a large portion of it is hokey and commercialized... Don't be partiotic just because we're in the midst of 'bad times', be patriotic because we live in the best damn country on earth.

Now come on Doc, let's suit up and ship out.