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#1 Sixthwizard

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:19 AM

Why are vinyl toys so expensive?  Rampage toys for example.... why is a 5" figure $300???  Is it based on the paint applications?  Are they basically selling their paint applications or is it the small numbers release? ....these vinyl prices confuse me.

 

I get interested to pick some up at times, but when I see the ticket price- I say DAMN!

 

Whats the deal?  Educate me.

 

 


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#2 Rubberhammer

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:28 AM

I have wondered this myself.

I have always just assumed that it was due to the cost of the materials, and difficulty to mold.
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#3 Sixthwizard

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:31 AM

I figure they are basically selling paint applications.  And I dont buy figures for paint.  


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#4 Rubberhammer

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:46 AM

Oh, I'm sure there is a hefty mark-up just for the paint apps.

I also wonder if vinyl isn't hell on molds, hence the small numbers of figures produced.
I imagine they run whatever they can get out of one mold, and then call it quits, thinking that the small amounts of available figures should also translate into higher prices, simply because there aren't that many.
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#5 jkaris

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:12 AM

Overall, it's a low run thing. The lower the run, the higher the per figure costs are.

Mold costs, which aren't nearly as much as steel molds, but since they run less figures, costs more per figure.
Low runs.
Labor costs per figure are higher.
Larger sizes generally mean higher shipping rates from Asia to here.
Paint apps.
Artists premiums.

When I was at Designercon a couple weekends ago, I almost bought the green version of this figure:
http://www.ebay.com/...0-/141460704265
But I realized that I really don't have the money or space to start getting into designer vinyl.
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#6 ironmask

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:14 AM

There's also some market manipulation, not that every vinyl toy producer does it, but there are certainly enough doing it to drive the market. 


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#7 PlasticSoul

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 05:44 PM

http://rampage-toys....-all-works.html

 

There is the basic process.

 

As far as costs for the maker it really depends.

 

If you wanted to make lets say a 3 inch figure with arms that move you need to get it sculpted which is either free if you do it or several hundred dollars minimum if someone else does. The process of getting the clay figure molded and cast in wax would run between 4 and 8 hundred bucks give or take. Electroplating and actually making the metal mold is maybe another 1,500 to 3,000 dollars. Then getting them produced is also a big cost because a lot of the japanese vinyl factories are literally 2 or 3 people pouring and pulling every toy by hand. This is not assembly line toy making at all. Hell even when that process is over people get their vinyl toys uncut and in pieces then they need to heat up to soften the vinyl then cut every seam and joint by hand then assemble it all themselves. The low run thing is also a part of it but often toy makers have no choice. The factories i know of simply refuse to do big runs. They have other things to make and can't tie up weeks pulling one single toy so most people have to order a small run at a time. Even other vinyl toy people have been known to get angry at someone trying to order big runs because if it happens their own stuff gets major delays. At the end of it all quite often you are also paying a lot for a paint application but it's just like any type of art. The difference is instead of them using a blank canvas they are painting their art on a sculpture which is often their own work as well. So like any art form some peoples stuff sells pretty cheap and some is very expensive. 

 

If you are thinking of getting into vinyl stuff and don't want to pay a premium just remember lots of great vinyl makers do initial open run pre-orders of blank vinyl toys. That way you can get the toy without paying for paint and without any hassle at all. The reason some people can get away with it is because they aren't going to the factory and ordering 250 toys. They often do it like any other toy and order small runs but they do it over and over ordering the same color until they fill the pre-order. 


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#8 Draznar

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 06:20 PM

I'm actually glad that this question got asked.

I'm still not going to buy vinyl.

But I like the answers anyways.


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#9 hellscrape

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 06:32 PM

I started off my toy collecting by first buying Kidrobot stuff.  I didn't think it was expensive enough, so then I switched to Japanese vinyl, haha... I have about 100 toys, and while the quality is great, there is often a lot of arrogance and entitlement in this collecting environment.  so far, LRG's and keshi seem far more laid back!


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#10 Sixthwizard

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 06:59 PM

Thanks guys. Appreciate the input and answers given.

There's some of them I reaaally want. Bad. But man....my wife would slay my sack off. Haha.... She already is super cool about everything I do toy wise, but I can't really get into anything new without winning the lottery. Hahahaha....think she'd cut my sack off. Haha......
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#11 PlasticSoul

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 06:59 PM

I'm actually glad that this question got asked.

I'm still not going to buy vinyl.

But I like the answers anyways.

 

I think one of the things i've learned over the past few years is that i care less and less about what a toy is called or made out of and more about how much i like it and who was behind it's creation. 

 

In the beginning i recall people talking about how they won't bother with anything articulated or anything over 2 inches tall and if it's not rubber it's garbage because resin sucks. I bought into it a little but ended up changing my mind pretty quickly. Not only do i enjoy bigger figures and articulation now i actually sculpt some of that stuff myself. Rubber is more fun then resin in my opinion but hard plastic can be really nice i think. 

 

When i put a lot of research into vinyl it was pretty similar actually. Lots of people with strict rules they follow and try to push on others about what constitutes a proper vinyl toy and what doesn't. It must be articulated and it must not be realistically sculpted and it must be made in japan and anything else is a knockoff or an insult to sofubi and doesn't belong in someones proper collection. While i do understand the purist point of view and it's neat to see people so dedicated to what they enjoy i don't feel the same really. Some of my absolute favorite vinyl toys coming out these days are through Unbox. They are not a japanese company but they have great quality all around and they use wonderful raw vinyl and in my opinion their process and end result are on par with anyone making toys anywhere else in the world.   

 

In the end Draz i don't think at this point there is a kind of toy i won't buy. If i really like it it doesn't make much of a difference if it's plastic or rubber or pvc or vinyl or made in japan or in the usa or in china. If i like a toy and don't dislike the people behind it i will probably buy it.


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#12 Rubberhammer

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:01 PM

Price is the only thing that keeps me from getting a toy, if I like it.

I prefer rubber, but if I like something, and it is only available in a different material, I will still get it.

I don't understand the "Purist" attitude you mentioned though. How is that "Has to be made in Japan" thing even supposed to be justified?
If an American is really good with vinyl, he must move to Japan to be taken seriously?
What if a Japanese guy lives in America, but is a badass with vinyl?

That idea confuses me.
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#13 PlasticSoul

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:41 PM

I don't understand the "Purist" attitude you mentioned though. How is that "Has to be made in Japan" thing even supposed to be justified?
If an American is really good with vinyl, he must move to Japan to be taken seriously?
What if a Japanese guy lives in America, but is a badass with vinyl?

That idea confuses me.

 

 

That is a loaded question. Historically as in many decades ago lots of the high quality japanese vinyl toys were either bootlegged in china with pretty crap materials and poor manufacturing or even had the same characters licensed for production in china. That's not to say china only made poor quality toys(that is far from the truth)but if you are bootlegging something you probably won't be giving it your best effort no matter what country you happen to be in. You would even see japanese toys with articulation redone in china as one piece with all the no longer functioning seam lines still there. So that played a roll but at this point it's other things that bother some people. There used to be a significant difference in the kind of vinyl used in japan and used in other countries. So technically there was a significant quality difference there but now some companies source the same type of vinyl no matter where they are producing toys so you can have nice thick durable vinyl and even crystal clear vinyl from places other then japan. The idea that in japan factories are small family run operations and in china everything is mass produced by an assembly line isn't valid these days at all either. Some companies in china are just as careful in their production with teams just as small and just as skilled as anyone in the world. One of the big reasons you don't see this type of vinyl stuff made in america though is simply because a lot of what they do wouldn't be legal here. We have different manufacturing laws just like every other country does. 

 

As far as what is required to be "legit" sofubi that varies a lot. Some people think if you aren't japanese it's not authentic. Some people think you can be non-japanese but need to be in japan for it to count. A very famous japanese toy maker went so far as to stamp his highly sought after incredibly expensive vinyl toys with stuff like "made in occupied japan" and "eff the usa" to show his dislike of the american sofubi trend. So there are lots of opinions on the subject. It's interesting because a decade ago people like paul kaiju who wanted to make japanese vinyl toys had no choice but to do the leg work and go to japan and make connections in person to even make it possible at all. These days anyone anywhere with money can do the same thing without travelling at all. 

 

So there isn't one standard or one opinion or even just two sides of the fence. There are tons of viewpoints and ideas and opinions many of which directly contradict one another. Personally i just like toys. The where and how and why and when aren't the most important factors in what i decide to buy though they can make a difference.


Edited by PlasticSoul, 18 November 2014 - 09:47 PM.

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#14 Rubberhammer

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:14 PM

Wow!

Thanks for the info, man.

It would be my opinion that there are a lot of effing fruitcakes in the world of vinyl then.
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#15 hellscrape

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:43 PM

Toys bring out the inner fascist in everyone! YAY!!!


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#16 TheRiddler

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 05:13 PM

I never understood the arrogance and douchbaggery involved in collecting toys...i have to just laugh when I hear some dude trying to sound like a professor of toys....It is kind of sad really!


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#17 Sixthwizard

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 05:24 PM

#10. Cheddar beef brisket sub from FireHouseSubs. Get one. Get two. You will want another one for later. Haha......
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#18 Rubberhammer

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:20 PM

Damn, that does sound good.
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#19 PlasticSoul

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:43 PM

I never understood the arrogance and douchbaggery involved in collecting toys...i have to just laugh when I hear some dude trying to sound like a professor of toys....It is kind of sad really!

 

Are you directing this comment at me?


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#20 TheRiddler

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 10:02 PM

Not at all man...Why would you think that? I re read my comment and am really confused lol...I was actually just basing it on my experiences at toy shows or in toy stores when 2 guys basically argue over toys, which seems to happen a lot...


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#21 hellscrape

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 10:12 PM

I reread his statements and I doubt TheRiddler directed his comments towards you.  I think it was a general comment towards people who are condescending towards other toy collectors and think their toys are somehow superior.


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#22 Sixthwizard

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 10:20 PM

Are you directing this comment at me?


Should have started by saying- Riddleme This....haha...
Sorry- couldn't resist that.

-sounds like he was commenting on Hellscrapes remark about the Vinyl collecting community.
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#23 PlasticSoul

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 02:47 AM

Ha sorry Riddler! My mistake. I know my answers were pretty long-winded so i wasn't sure.


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#24 Draznar

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 03:36 AM

I don't buy vinyl because it's too expensive and like Sixth my wife would also have my balls for it.

Aside from that, the only restrictions I put on my collection are size. Not because I don't like bigger figures, but because I don't have a wealth of space. (Especially when I move). I have a couple Red Lanterns, a Merman, and two TMNT figures. They're my only "large" figures outside of my Transformers.


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#25 Sixthwizard

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 06:13 AM

I have some larger figures.  Space is an issue for sure.  My whole setup is in my living room!  haha....and yeah- my woman is cool with it.  ?  haha.....

 

I am getting some pics together tonight to finally post my collection.  stay tuned


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