57 replies to this topic

[YourMomGotaKinnikuBuster]

Thanks for the insight. My sister-in-law is from Germany and I've found that they are so embarrassed by the rest of the world using Nazis as a stereotype for Germans that they really try and distance themselves from the whole thing. But I've also known American's who have a parent from Germany and they tend to embrace the Nazi stuff.

Yeah that is true. I was born in Germany and lived there until I was 13, and its more of a stigma for the culture now. Its like having to prove that your not a nazi although alot of kids over here now think its cool basically to offend their parents. Honestly though, it doesnt really matter because essentially the Brocken family is pretty much the running joke of the chojin world. Brockenman got ripped in half, Brocken Jr couldnt make it as a great chojin and it seems like Jaeger is always getting severely beaten. Its really all about the Muscle clan and the Masks anyway.

Edited by YourMomGotaKinnikuBuster, 18 January 2006 - 01:16 AM.

[hushicho]

I remain unconvinced from the song lyrics, honestly. But I suppose I'd already made up my mind.

Anyway, I know there's a great appeal towards German uniforms through history; plainly put, they're sexy. And I don't know about fangirls, but this fanboy finds Brocken Jr to be immensely sexy-looking! There is a certain aspect as well, beyond the aesthetic appeal of the striking colors, the cut and design of the uniforms and so forth, of the kind of authoritarian fantasy. It's similar, I have found, to just about any other kind of cultural costume that appeals, whether gladiator or Greek warrior or athlete, and so forth; those were farther back in history and so people aren't quite as sensitive about the good or bad that may be associated with them. The uniforms worn by Brocken Jr and his father are, on the other hand, from within the last century, which is relatively recent.

It is very unfair that it seems they are associated so much with Germany though, although equally unfair is Germany's overzealous censorship that rivals the very thing they're trying to stamp out in terms of its far-reaching ramifications; even in historical works it's not particularly smiled upon to use the swastika (which is usually only consistent with spiritual symbols when its 'prongs' are facing left; facing right is the Nazi symbol and is not to be confused with the Buddhist symbol and so forth, and the facing right symbol is used comparatively less), which has had to be omitted from several works, including some historical simulation games that have started to use the eiserne kreuz or iron cross instead. This is problematic because the iron cross actually is still used and has been used for centuries, and is only associated with the Nazi party when it has oak leaves and the swastika on it! But in these new works it's used as plain as the German armed forces still use it today! So in its own way, their own censorship still associates them with the Nazis!

Brocken Jr, to me, is very sexy, very desirable as a person (although I'm not so fond of his portrayal in the Nisei manga, he seemed much more likable in the original Kinnikuman story as I remember), and Jade is, as previously stated, quiet, polite, seemingly quite gentle unless really riled, and passionate when it comes to helping and protecting those about whom he cares. And, well, he's also gorgeous, so I'm sure that helps plenty of people like him. As I said in the micro-wrestler thread, he has one fine derriere.

Anyway, I hope this helps explain some. Sorry to have got so far off the original topic, but it is interesting exploring this more!

Edited by hushicho, 18 January 2006 - 02:03 AM.

[KnuxieChan]

Well, Brocken WANTED to be a fear Chojin.. but that didn't last too long. I'd say it was teen-anger at Ramenman for killing his dad. I mean.. I'd be pretty pissed too o_o; I like him in the Nisei anime. He's so rugged and mysterious.. and really silly sometimes. ("Now imagine za vundah viener right infront of you..")

He and Jeager soften up a lot in the series, after the No Respect saga.

And poor Jeager.. Mars rips off his arm and mind-rapes him.. Ricardo breaks his leg and almost tears him into two.. Remember Jeager was the top student at the Hercules Factory? Now everyone treats him like a lesser Chojin. ;.; He gets the crappy treatments like Kid doesin the manga.

Yet he doesn't complain.. bless him.

And there's just something about uniforms that everyone finds sexy! XD I mean, I don't mean to be a silly fangirl, but the Brockens are very attractive. Fruity, kinda weak, but definately attractive.

Edited by KnuxieChan, 18 January 2006 - 05:53 AM.

[MissMothra]

True yes. But I consider Jeager in stead of the perfect boyfriend, to be the perfect relative like a brother or a cousin. I also consider Brocken being... probably the awesomest grandfather a kid could have XD

Yes, I, too, find the German culture very fascinating, but for some reason almost EVERYTHING I watch (just about), my favorite and/or attractive character would be the bad guy (ta da, Mars) and I... can't seem to figure out why. believe it or not, I'm the shy and sensitive type, and my favorite characters are bad-arse hunks that throw people around the country for fun.

But the new generation and Legends I favor are mars and I got this tie between Buffaloman, terryman, and Brocken. Brocken 'cuz he's awesome, terryman 'cuz he looks like my grandfather (rest his soul), and Buffaloman 'cuz my dad looked like him once. XD I thought it was hilarious. (and if my dad lets his hair out by his face, he looks like Rob Zombie XD)

Now... Jeager is pretty sweet, and would make a great boyfriend... (if he tried picking up a girl), but I got another question.. is he secretly a skateboarder? or is that helmet for his little "style" of some sort going on?

[Kevin Mayle]

my favorite and/or attractive character would be the bad guy and I... can't seem to figure out why.

I'll tell you why. You're a female. It's in your genetic code to like the bad guy.

[MissMothra]

Really? How come the only people I know real well with the same situation is Chibi Riya and Knuxie? (and whomever else likes Mars, Pumpinator, T-Claw, and the other baddies). Usually it's for this show only, not really the other shows.

I like Naraku from Inuyasha, who's a bad guy, I like Plankton from SpongeBob, who's a bad guy, Mars from Ultimate Muscle, James of Team Rocket from Pokemon, Mummymon from Digimon (season 2)...

I swear, honest to God, I've got some hidden bad-evilness inside me somewhere. XD I'm shy, sensitive, kinda quiet (when I'm in person), yet I love the bad-guys... My heart's way too big, I guess I'm just sympathizing them.... OR, Kevin Mayle's right, it's in my femanine genes. XD

[Matto]

Kinda off topic, Jade/Jeager doesn't deserve to be with Rinko/Roxanne. She is one of my least favorite girls in the Kinnikuman universe (ok, not least favorite but sometimes she is a real bee-eye-itch!).

Jade and Mantaro are somewhat the same, however Mantaro has won more matches then Jade has but Mantaro has it alot worse. Everyone makes fun of him. =P

[KnuxieChan]

Dude, Jeager x Roxanne is ADORABLE in the manga. <3 I like manga!Roxanne better anyway. She's very shy and totally has a crush on him. XD Jeager's all clueless 'n stuff. And there's an adorable pic in the manga of where Kid's wondering where Roxanne went, and figures she went to see Jeager. Well, you see his thought and it's Jeager, holding Roxanne on his lap and she's feeding him.

The girls are much less obnoxious and annoying.

And yeah, women love badguys and anti-heroes, no matter what the series. Sephiroth, Squall Leon Heart, Sesshomaru, Envy.. (Gannondorf for me. =D)

Edited by KnuxieChan, 18 January 2006 - 06:34 PM.

[hushicho]

I'll have to see the anime sometime, I really have only read the Nisei manga. I've heard the anime is much more entertaining overall, and I know for a fact it's less grisly and violent (which is nice, although it does seem that nobody ever gets seriously injured for any considerable length of time in it.)

Personally I think Jade's relationship with his lehrer is pretty adorable too, but I've always liked those 'sensei' relationships, they always seem so...I don't know. So something. Roxanne is kind of a nonentity in the manga, at least that's how she comes off to me. She's there, she exists, but she doesn't really make much of any kind of impact, or seem to have any kind of distinct personality. The only time when I really found her to be memorable was in the three-legged race, and she didn't really do much even in it. Maybe I've just seen too many similar characters. Then again, the schoolgirls are extremely minor characters in the scheme of things. Again, I'll have to see the anime and see what it does differently.

[KnuxieChan]

Yeah.. Brocken and Jeager make a cute couple too.. because they're so dedicated to each other.

I dunno. I saw the anime first, so I learned to dislike Roxanne because she was.. just an annoying character. Maybe it's the voice? I really hate her dub voice actress..

[hushicho]

Ahahah! You know, it's funny, a voice actor can really make or break a character's likeability, especially if they're the first exposure you have to a certain character. When you're reading manga you can always give a character whatever voice you think they should have, in your mind, but when the anime comes around it's sometimes jarringly different. I know that's happened more than once in my mind, although I've had many more experiences where the voices were perfect. Nonetheless, there have been ones where I've simply sat and wondered who thought the voice actors cast for the part were appropriate. And although I don't want to get into a 'dub-sub' argument with anyone, the casting in English-language dubs seems very uneven, so it's hit-or-miss much more often than I tend to find in most of the Japanese voice actors.

But that is really funny in many ways, how a voice can really make you like or dislike a character. I've had that experience more than once, too...love a character from the manga but can't stand them when they get around to making an anime. And sometimes vice-versa too, a good voice can make a mediocre character into an exceptionally appealing one.

Of course, the ideal is to have an appealing character with an appropriately good voice. That's the best!

Anyway, I digress. It is nice to see that kind of dedication, and earnest too. Jade is so earnest, so honest and so straightforward. And his whole story makes you just want to love him. He's so passionate and dedicated, and his help to Mantarou further exhibits that. You just want to take him and hug him and tell him he's loved! Of course, it would be nice to have him hug you too...!

[MissMothra]

So there are HIDDEN and DISGUISED Jeager and Brocken fans here as well. XD Just kidding. Yeah, Jeager's so irresistable and seems like the ideal boyfriend, but the bad-guys like Mars and Kevin just makes ya wanna chase 'em and hunt 'em down 'til you got them in your arms.

Wow, this entire topic went from my theory to THIS... Well, better start the countdown before Veers his his way with this thread and tosses it to the Junkyard...

[Red Rains fan girl]

I think that Jeager x Roxanne is really cute, but I think
that Kiki would be better for him.

[KnuxieChan]

I think that Jeager x Roxanne is really cute, but I think
that Kiki would be better for him.

No evidence! XO They've never interacted. They'd both bore each other.

Jeager: ...... So..
Kiki: .... ? *blushblush*
Jeager: ....... *stumped on what to talk about*

Kiki's more of a Checkmate (or DikDik) fangirl.

Edited by KnuxieChan, 19 January 2006 - 04:01 PM.

[hushicho]

Well I shouldn't think anyone would throw this into the Junkyard, it's still topical in terms of being about Kinnikuman Nisei/Ultimate Muscle, and most conversations usually either evolve and turn into something else, or gradually peter out until there's nothing left. I find it very interesting to hear about all these things from so many people here, and I don't think anyone's said anything offensive enough to warrant moderation. It's an interesting subject!

I think you're right about Kiki though, they don't seem like they'd have...well...anything to do!

[Matto]

If Jade and Keiko were a couple...

Keiko: .....So.
Jade: ....Ja?
Keiko: ...
Jade: ...
Keiko: I think a fan fiction is going to pair us together.
Jade: ..........
Keiko: .........OMGZ TH3 R0XX3RS!
Jade: o.O;

[hushicho]

I find myself reminded of the opening segment on Mystery Science Theater 3000 once where they were having 'casual day', which meant that they hadn't prepared anything in terms of an opening segment. It was basically a minute or so of false starts, awkward silences, and mind-numbing relief when the commercial sign popped up. Absolutely hilarious in the context of the series!

I do sort-of wonder what dating Jade would be like. I'd imagine there would be some necessary interaction with his lehrer, perhaps even need for approval! Then again, I sort of wonder what dating Brocken Jr would be like...I wonder if Jade would get all possessive of his lehrer! Or maybe he'd get all broody...

I can't imagine a date with Jade would be too full of free-flowing conversation and carefree laughs though. Maybe Brocken Jr, over a bottle of wine or something, but Jade seems so quiet to me most of the time anyway unless he's speaking to his lehrer or someone in the ring, or about something related to the ring...

[MissMothra]

Unless you've got a lot in common with Jeager, then there's pretty much no match for him... No PERFECT match anyhow.

Although, he'd be a pretty interesting boyfriend. Teach him out to skateboard and he'd rock!

[hushicho]

Yeah, and he comes complete with a helmet so he'd already look the part! Maybe he's one of those guys who secretly has a lot of interests and is just waiting for the right person to come along and ask him something. And then maybe he'll just burst forth with conversation from there?

...well, it's an idea anyway.

[Kin]

This is my theory.

Friedrich Nietsche's Übermensch is a human being that has the will of power. The source of the Choujin Power is the will. Übermensch could be translated as superman or overman, or choujin in japanese. Nazi ideology was based off Nietsche's ideas. We have two nazis in Kinnikuman.

[hushicho]

With all due respect Kin, that theory doesn't hold up at all. You have vastly oversimplified Nietzsche's theories, first of all, and you further neglect to take into account that his theories were not the only basis for the Nazi ideology; there were many concepts and ideals incorporated into what eventually became that party's stances and ideals, not least of all was Hitler's own ideas for where the German people should go. Further, even if Nietzsche's ideas inspired the Nazi ideology, that hardly means that anything subscribing to those ideas must thusly be Nazi; that would be as ludicrous as saying that anyone who likes Wagner's works must thusly be Nazi, simply because Hitler enjoyed Der Ring Des Nibelungen.

Last of all, if the choujin power source is the will of power, and working from what you claim proves the two Brockens' Nazism (and what about Jade?), then wouldn't that mean that all choujin would, therefore, be Nazis? Until you qualify and clarify your theory, I don't think there's a way to use it. The Ubermensch idea has been used in far too many things...and usually unknowingly...because it is a common practice in many spiritual and aescetic practices (which in these series, honing the body tends to be) to strengthen the willpower and, by doing so, be able to win due to will, despite injury or setback.

[Kin]

With all due respect Kin, that theory doesn't hold up at all.  You have vastly oversimplified Nietzsche's theories, first of all, and you further neglect to take into account that his theories were not the only basis for the Nazi ideology; there were many concepts and ideals incorporated into what eventually became that party's stances and ideals, not least of all was Hitler's own ideas for where the German people should go.  Further, even if Nietzsche's ideas inspired the Nazi ideology, that hardly means that anything subscribing to those ideas must thusly be Nazi; that would be as ludicrous as saying that anyone who likes Wagner's works must thusly be Nazi, simply because Hitler enjoyed Der Ring Des Nibelungen.

Of course I oversimplified things. We are talking about references, not philosophy.

Last of all, if the choujin power source is the will of power, and working from what you claim proves the two Brockens' Nazism (and what about Jade?), then wouldn't that mean that all choujin would, therefore, be Nazis?

No, that would mean german choujins would be nazis, which they are. Remember Leopaldon?

Until you qualify and clarify your theory, I don't think there's a way to use it.  The Ubermensch idea has been used in far too many things...and usually unknowingly...because it is a common practice in many spiritual and aescetic practices (which in these series, honing the body tends to be) to strengthen the willpower and, by doing so, be able to win due to will, despite injury or setback.

It happened first in Kinnikuman. We are not talking about martial arts ki, spirit, or whatever the average shonen series calls the power, we are talking about the will, which is innate to a human/choujin being and cannot be trained. I don't know what else to clarify, it's pretty straightforward to me.

[MissMothra]

Wow, half these words I don't understand. I need a dictionary.

If this turns into an argument fight thingy, I apologize for starting this thread in the first place.

[Kin]

If this turns into an argument fight thingy, I apologize for starting this thread in the first place.

Please don't. This topic is harmless.

[MissMothra]

Okay, good.

Everyone has their own opinions, and I see that it's in our nature to try and prove ourselves to always be right, but everyone has their own opinions and views upon things. Apparently, I was just stating my opinion as a theory based on the knowledge I knew about Jeager's and Brocken jr.s history.