57 replies to this topic

[MissMothra]

Red Rain of Pain... A powered up karate chop? Or another Nazi-related act?

Why would it be a Nazi-related act? Well, I'm about to tell you why...

I've been doing some studying when I played the gamecube game and carefully observed how each move was made, but when I saw the Red Rain of Pain and how it was performed, it suddenly popped into my mind...

Why isn't it a powered up VERTICLE karate chop? Or something totally different with the same name?

If I remember correctly, the Red Rain of Pain was first seen in both the manga AND the anime when Jeager used it against Dik Dik. Well, that's when I first saw it. But just a few hours ago, I've discovered something and created a theory...

When Jeager used the Red Rain of Pain, he simply drew his hand almost horozontally against his chest (almost) and extended it outwards, but instead of straight ahead of him, he threw his hand behind him so the attack could go all the way through. If he hand kept his hand straight out in front of him at an upward angle... Now wait, that final sentence.... Visualize that... Could it be?

Yes, it would be. A salute to Adolf Hitler by the Nazi's. Considering that Brocken's father, Brockenman, was a Nazi, and Brocken was a "good" Nazi, that explains why the Red Rain of Pain was performed as you all know and love. And what a coincidence, both the Nazi salute AND the Red Rain of Pain is used by the right hand! (or maybe some of you saw the technique used with the left.)

The reason why that little piece of information wasn't given away so easily was because the hand went behind him, which made people think it was a super-cool powered-up karate chop. Besides, it's a kid's show, remember? They didn't want anybody offended.

Sorry if I DID offend anyone. Seriously, my deepest apologies. But think about it, it would SEEM like it, wouldn't it. So for you Brocken/Jeager fans, think about who you're rooting for.

But what I thought was brilliant was that the special effect that Jeager has with the flames and the blade totally took away the attention of that fact. It made everyone think it was just a powered up karate chop. Pretty ingenius, eh?

But that move is not exactly a salute, it's an attack. That also took away the attention as well. And also the fact that the word "Nazi" or even "Holocaust" wasn't even mentioned as well. Brilliant... Shear brilliance...

I've discovered something about Mars as well that's pretty stunning too, but I've only got a limited amount of time on the internet. Lemme know what you think about my theory!

[Matto]

Holy crap your right...the way he did it in the anime AND the GCN game almost looks like the salute. However, it might not be justifed yet, but neyway great info!

The Berlin Red Rain scares me in the manga though...blades are evil.

[Jaeger gal]

Your right, the way it is. Damn I am part german and I have study all about The Nazi or even Holocaust. I have been called and is still called a Nazi right now, even by my own mother. Well yeah my mother calls me a nazi, get use to it. that is my nickname at school and being part of the mafia because of my last name. Anyway, yes the red rain of pain is a nazi move. Why by Brockenman wtich was a nazi and Brocken jr which is seen as a good nazi. Why would Jeager use the move, if he claims he is not a nazi.Becuase of the family history.

[hushicho]

It's just a move. And really, judging from Jade's moving speech in the manga, I would certainly not think it would be Nazi-related. Besides which, Brocken Jr is not a Nazi, even if his father carried the symbol. Berlin's Red Rain is no more a Nazi salute than any other thrusting chop; it's just a brutal attack, like most of the other special finishers in Kinnikuman. If it were meant as that salute, then it would be done standing at full attention, not rushing across a mat. Furthermore, it's not a direct thrust right out. It just doesn't add up.

Even if it were intended as reminiscent of that, which I don't believe for a moment it is, why should we think twice about rooting for Brocken Jr or Jade? It in no way signifies their political standings, nor does it indicate in any way our own.

Edited by hushicho, 15 January 2006 - 09:08 PM.

[Ridureyu]

What you have to realize is that Kinnikuman, both 1st and 2nd generation, is basically constructed of stereotypes. Ramenman is an insanely stereotypical chinese guy, Terry has a cowboy hat, a gun, and big stars on his shoulders, Brocken is a uniform-wearing Nazi (who doesn't seem to mind other races), Robin is a noble, armor-wearing British knight, and Buffaloman... well, all Spaniards have horns, ya know?

Thus, they just kind of made Brocken nazilike because it was the best stereotype they could think of.

[Mr. S]

What you have to realize is that Kinnikuman, both 1st and 2nd generation, is basically constructed of stereotypes. Ramenman is an insanely stereotypical chinese guy, Terry has a cowboy hat, a gun, and big stars on his shoulders, Brocken is a uniform-wearing Nazi (who doesn't seem to mind other races), Robin is a noble, armor-wearing British knight, and Buffaloman... well, all Spaniards have horns, ya know?

Thus, they just kind of made Brocken nazilike because it was the best stereotype they could think of.

Yeah, most japanese anime/manga dealing with foreign cultures they tend to go with stereotypes, as do we in america do occasionally. An example is anytime we have any super-hero from asia there always either a Samurai or a kung-fu expert.
Anyway besides that, aside from looking like Nazi's Broken Jr. and Jeager don't embody anything else from the Nazi culture or mind sets as previously stated and in my opinion anyone too worked up about political correctness are, too uptight for one, and second would probably not want to have anything to do with Kinnikuman since it is basically a parade of stereotypes, violence and dumb humor.

[Knuxman]

And don't forget Geronimo, we all know that all native americans wear animal skins, don't cut their hair, and know an apache yell!

[Ridureyu]

And don't forget Geronimo, we all know that all native americans wear animal skins, don't cut their hair, and know an apache yell!

Yes, they do.

[MissMothra]

Well, yeah. I guess all that's true. But still why couldn't it have been a flaming fist or his entire hand becoming the flame itself or the blade engulfed with flames? WHY the karate chop similar to the Nazi salute? WHY am I the one going crazy?

[hushicho]

So now karate chops are similar to the Nazi salute? I think this is a case more of you just looking for similarities! Why isn't Berlin's Red Rain accomplished by Brocken Jr or Jade launching himself into the air and spreading his legs, similar to Kekkou Kamen's Oppiroge Jump, and emitting a brilliant shimmering light from his crotch?

...well for one, it would look ridiculous.

A straight chop like Berlin's Red Rain is a devastating move even if it isn't accomplished with a hand on fire. It's an extremely damaging move if a particular fighter knows how to use it, and that's why it's done so rarely; it's brutal! But in light of all the other particularly brutal moves that several Kinnikuman characters do, it's pretty consistent with the others.

As someone else pointed out, Kinnikuman does have a lot of stereotypical costume and so forth. And as someone who has studied more than his share of the past century's wars, I have to say that Germany's uniform throughout the years is one of the most evocative and striking in terms of aesthetic presentation. So that probably also has something to do with at least Brockenman and Brocken Jr's outfits. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a historical debate, so I'll end it there.

But I don't think this is the salute at all.

Edited by hushicho, 16 January 2006 - 01:24 PM.

[jkaris]

Just fr clarification, Brocken Jr is/was a Nzai. Quite a few of his outfits carried one or more swastikas. And he has a HUGE swastika tattoo'd on his back.

[hushicho]

Brockeman was, but Brocken Jr wasn't from what I've been able to find out, despite his costumery. And if you notice, at least on all the kinkeshi I've got of Brocken Jr, he doesn't sport any swastikas; Brockenman of course does.

I'm not trying to step on any toes, so I hope nobody's going to get offended by it. We can always agree to disagree.

[jkaris]

I don't see any other reason for them to draw/sculpt him with swastikas other than to symbolize his Nazi affiliations. The Japanese don't have the severe hatred for anythin Nazi tht most western countries do.

Granted, I don't know of anything Nazi like that he did in the manga or cartoons, but he was a Nazi, nonetheless.


No Swastika


Armband Swastika (1)


Armband Swastika (1)


No Swastika


No Swastika


No Swastika


Armband Swastikas (4)


Armband Swastikas (2) - actually patches on his shirt sleeves.


No Swastika


No Swastika


No Swastika


Armband Swastikas (2) and HUGE Swastika (tattoo) on his back (1)


Armband Swastikas (2) and HUGE Swastika emblem on his back (1)

[TheOrgg]

I don't recall seeing a broken cross on the back of Brocken Junior; I belive it was only his father with the tattoo on his back.

That said, both Brockens are indeed affiliated with the National Socialist party, also known as the "NaZi" party.

[hushicho]

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. And the second and third ones...one is Brockenman (or your shop is mislabeled) and the one with him with the armband doesn't have a swastika on the armband, at least on mine. Although others might have the symbol, the fact remains that even in the manga/anime Brocken Jr was not so keen to follow in his father's footsteps.

As I said, I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I see now that some of the kinkeshi do have the swastika. But can you really confirm that all of the ones with the swastika (comparatively few) are Jr and not Brockenman? Because the second one you noted, at least if my memory from ordering at the AKIA store is correct, was labelled as Brockenman.

Even if they are, I'm still entirely unconvinced as in Japan, there are plenty of symbols used entirely for aesthetic impact or appeal; crosses were fashionable a few years back, but it hardly signified Christianity. It may also be that Brocken Jr simply used items that were his father's for sentimental reasons.

Edited by hushicho, 17 January 2006 - 01:26 AM.

[Slowhand]

And don't forget Geronimo, we all know that all native americans wear animal skins, don't cut their hair, and know an apache yell!

And they lack noses as well.

and Buffaloman... well, all Spaniards have horns, ya know?

I think that's a reference to bullfighting.

I can get why people think Brocken is a full-blown Nazi. He does some things that indicate it. Like stated earlier in this thread, the Japanese don't hate the Nazis as much as the west does.

[Soupie]

The Japanese don't have the severe hatred for anythin Nazi tht most western countries do.

Yes, and perhaps another reason the Brocken figures and the swastikas are not a big deal in Japanese manga is because the swastika is much older than the Nazi Party.

The swastika symbol has ancient meaning within Hinduism and Buddism.



Of course, this has nothing to do with whether Brocken Jr. is or isn't a Nazi himself. As to that, I say, simply, don't judge a book by its cover. It's very likely the swastika is used to identify the character as a German and not necessarily a Nazi.

This is similar to the way the cowboy hat is used to identify a character as American and not necessarily one who actively herds cattle.

Edited by Soupie, 17 January 2006 - 12:30 PM.

[KnuxieChan]

So now karate chops are similar to the Nazi salute? I think this is a case more of you just looking for similarities! Why isn't Berlin's Red Rain accomplished by Brocken Jr or Jade launching himself into the air and spreading his legs, similar to Kekkou Kamen's Oppiroge Jump, and emitting a brilliant shimmering light from his crotch?

...well for one, it would look ridiculous.

I'd let them do that to me. Especially if they were wearing her outfit. =D

But yeah. Try not to think too hard about these things and trying to work them out into real-life issues. o_o; It means you're obsessed or.. really really bored.

Only Yudetamago knows why the characters are the way they are.

[MissMothra]

Try not to think too hard about these things and trying to work them out into real-life issues. o_o; It means you're obsessed or.. really really bored.

Hehehee, I was really really bored. Trust me, I live under a rock.

Yeah, why don't one of us grow the balls (or the boobs) to e-mail Yudetemago about it? I'd say jkaris because he owns this site and would make a great representative of this forum. Besides, we don't wanna swarm Yudetemago with our e-mails basically asking the same thing.

[Kevin Mayle]

What is the appeal of the of the Broken family to the fangirls?

[KnuxieChan]

What is the appeal of the of the Broken family to the fangirls?

I dunno. Something about Nazis, I suppose.

Why Jeager appeals to me.. is because he's cute and very polite. It's pretty much the same reason Roxanne likes him. He's a little naive, but I love him that way. (I also noticed he's very quiet and shy around women and tends to ignore them. Heh.) I can connect with his character easily too.

Why Brocken appeals to me.. I'm a fan of rugged badass old men. John Constantine from Hellblazer, Sean Connery... XD I've always been interested in German culture too, even before Ultimate Muscle came along.

[Siya the Barracuda]

I don't know about the rest of the series, but Brocken Jr was definately a Nazi at the beginning. He wore a red t-shirt with a huge-arse Swastika over the front of it!

The fact his father was a Nazi and was killed only proves that, and of course his SONG hides the hints that he is one. *finds the translated lyrics*


[ aa berurin ni akai ame ga furu
aa kanashimi no gunka ga kyou mo hibiku

Ah, red rain of Berlin
Ah, the cries of the troops echo sadly today

***

gunpuku wo ki ta satsujin oni da nande
ureshii koto wo itte kureru na yo
seigi wo kidotta choujin ha ore ga
hansoku waza de jigoku ni okuru ze

This homocidal maniac wearing the clothes of the troops
Is a delightful thing
The justice chojins are affected
By his superior skills of hell ]

That's my two cents...or pennies...anyway.

[Siya the Barracuda]

What is the appeal of the of the Broken family to the fangirls?

I prefure the Masks/Warsman.

I, like Knuxie, just find Germans and it's culture/history incredibly interesting. I've always loved world history before I liked anime (I think it was Tomb Raider that did it for me...) and so it was natural to love the so called "hidden meanings" behind Kinnikuman and UM.

[Kevin Mayle]

Thanks for the insight. My sister-in-law is from Germany and I've found that they are so embarrassed by the rest of the world using Nazis as a stereotype for Germans that they really try and distance themselves from the whole thing. But I've also known American's who have a parent from Germany and they tend to embrace the Nazi stuff.

[jkaris]

I thnk part of the draw of the Brocken figure (other than the killer uniform) is the fact that in most of the world, Nazi is a taboo.