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Let's have a little come-to-Jesus...


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#1 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:50 AM

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Allow me to take you back to a time, that we all remember... It took place on a different calendar day for each of us, but the heart-and-soul of the matter stays the same: The day we rediscovered our respective loves for MUSCLE. We all went through the process of remembering these things, thinking about them fondly enough, and making the active decision to search them out to try to rebuild a collection.

In searching MUSCLE out, we'd invariably find pictures of ones that we remember having as well as ones we always wished we had. We'd research what they are, and find them on eBay or on forums like this one, and try to rebuild our collections. The fact that we are all here, reading this post, is indicative that we all found more than we bargained for. We set out to purchase toys, and we wound up collecting new friends and acquaintances through the process of building our collections. We get really stoked on collecting, and come up with grand designs on how we'd like to shape our collection... We come up with ways to extend the collecting process to make the thrill of the hunt last longer, while trying to educate ourselves about the form in general.

And then, as it always does, shit hits the fan. I'd like to believe that the "shit" in question can be summed up in one word ("greed", but there is also a lot of hubris), but in reality what happened to MUSCLE collecting, happens on a cycle and most of us that have been around for years have see that cycle repeat several times. There are mind-boggling trends that have fallen on the MUSCLE community, and the community as a whole seems to cosign on the behavior. Those who disagree, just fell out of the hobby. Those who were ambivalent stuck around, and I believe unwittingly bartered down ethics of the community in a handshake-with-the-devil for the sole purpose of keeping the hobby alive.

Breaches in the ethical boundaries of the community always happened... If you go back to the pioneer days of the AKIA (pre LRG) you still had the shill bidding, price gouging, taking advantage of newjacks, and people artificially driving up the prices of figures for their own monetary gain. You had members trying to manipulate the database to make common figures look more rare (to sell at a profit), or to make rarer figures look more common (to purchase, then resell at a profit). The fact that there is a lot of shady shit going on around MUSCLE collecting is nothing new... The widespread acceptance of it, however, is.

The bullshit that has become commonplace in the MUSCLE community, has driven a lot of people out of collecting. People bargain down their own expectations for their personal collections, just to avoid that breakdown in ethics being displayed by the fish-headed majority. That majority is actually a MINORITY, but only seems like a majority because nobody stands up to them. Real talk: people have looked away for so long in the interest of "just getting along", that they have stood back and watched the hobby turn into a psychotic shit-show OR just left the hobby all together.

I have noticed that people are more or less stalking each other on eBay, that they are buying lots at inflated prices, and then turning around once the value has been artificially augmented and reselling their doubles/triples/quintuples/etc for that higher inflated rate... Hell, even that purple claw's value is known to be an artificial value generated by Alex Forbes, who has been ostracized from the community to the point that we're not even supped to invoke his name! But for some reason, the greedy machinations left behind in his wake are considered acceptable? This makes zero sense. People on the board are doing the same shit that he was banned for, but I guess they are just smart enough to do it incrementally.

People tout that Class A's are so valuable, and the price only goes up... But when there are enough of the common Class A's that there is discussion that maybe some of the Class A's aren't as valuable and may actually be "Class B's"? Well, that conversation gets swept under the rug. We can't dare use the information, that we as a community (Namely Veers and Soupie) compiled (not for monetary reasons, but to understand the origins of the hobby better) to lower our artificially high prices... We can only use it to gouge the prices up higher? Right? Pfff

And don't even get me started on how Uncommon MUSCLE auctions go for 1:1 MUSCLE prices... The MUSCLE community doesn't accept the concept of "outliers"... Somebody pays 20% more than the value of a figure, then forevermore that becomes the value... We can't accept that it was some dummy paying a lot more than the figure was worth (and then move on).

MUSCLE collecting has become a drag, and to be frank, I am sick of it. MUSCLE, at one point in time, was the thing that brought almost all of us together.

We're ruining it, one shady interaction, shill bid, rule-of-two auction, and bold faced lie at a time.
Hell, maybe I am just the self-appointed sheriff of LRG... But I honestly feel less like that, and more like a friend who just found out that his best friend is a junkie.
It just f@#$ing sucks.
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#2 bizrebellion

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

WOW,,, powerful words there bro :yes:
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#3 NamaNiku

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:24 AM


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#4 BladeRunner

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

I like your post buddy, I'm feeling it.

As for myself, I'm guilty of overspending for the love MUSCLE, mainly because I'm fairly new collecting and was tying to catch up to all the 'old school' collectors.

I've even tried to contact a seller of a SR to end the bidding early (which didn't work out), just so I could own my first SR figure.

But you're right, now that I've calmed down my over spending, I've noticed many of the regular figures priced at ridiculously!

...it is a drag bro
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#5 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:38 AM

I like your post buddy, I'm feeling it.

As for myself, I'm guilty of overspending for the love MUSCLE, mainly because I'm fairly new collecting and was tying to catch up to all the 'old school' collectors.

I've even tried to contact a seller of a SR to end the bidding early (which didn't work out), just so I could own my first SR figure.

But you're right, now that I've calmed down my over spending, I've noticed many of the regular figures priced at ridiculously!

...it is a drag bro



That sad part is: When you found LRG, that was already the trending culture. Board members now, need to go back at look at MUSCLE threads from 2002-2005, and realize that most of this board was old timers, trying to help each other fill gaps in our collections.

The databases, color code, class system... That was all for education. Veers and Soupie weren't trying to gouge the market... They were collecting the knowledge of the hobby, as much as they were collecting the figure. Now, a lot of old-timers have left the hobby because the hobby is full of asshats. It's sad, because those guys are the hobby's living history. We saw this shit unfold.

Also, unfortunately, they watched the hobby that they love unravel.
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#6 Soupie

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

It* happened to GPK Cheap Toys and BEB as well.

*That is to say, it seems that when a vintage toyline achieves a certain level of interest from collectors, it becomes [too] competitive to collect. I'm not really sure what can be done about it. :unknw:
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#7 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:54 AM

It* happened to GPK Cheap Toys and BEB as well.

*That is to say, it seems that when a vintage toyline achieves a certain level of interest from collectors, it becomes [too] competitive to collect. I'm not really sure what can be done about it. :unknw:



Sure... However the boggling thing about MUSCLE, is how common and readily available a lot of the high priced figures are. At least GPK and BEB can claim to have smaller runs.

I don't know what can be done about it either... I know I personally have embargoed against those that I have considered to be offenders of the hobby... But it would take everybody doing that, as well as not treating eBay like a personal piggy bank.
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#8 iwao

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:12 PM

The databases, color code, class system... That was all for education. Veers and Soupie weren't trying to gouge the market...

I've always thought this was sad since rediscovering the hobby and getting educated here. Too many people bought into the idea that "Class A" must mean a single MUSCLE is worth $100 or more (even $40 or $50 for a MUSCLE is pretty ridiculous to me), and I've seen Veers make it clear in a few posts that assigning a dollar value to the different classes was never intended. I'm sure the hobby was fun if there was ever a time that collectors used the class system for a general idea of what figures are fair to trade for each other.

I can't imagine getting into the hobby, seeing what people pay for Class A figures (along with the behavior needed to acquire them), and still deciding to go for a master set.
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#9 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:19 PM

collectors used the class system for a general idea of what figures are fair to trade for each other.


This, basically. I mean, go back and look at the archives... The old-schoolers weren't even stingy about the Super Rares.
That state of the hobby now, is embarrassing.
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#10 SmokinGun

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

Collecting MUSCLE is definetly not like it use to even less than a year ago. I traded and giving away a few class A MUSCLE figures with many old skool collectors to help out with thier collection. And them returning favors to me. Good times! You cant do that now since new guy just turn around and post them on ebay with insane prices. A few of these new wave collectors are all about behind the scene shady bullshit since they're picking up these habbits thats currently going around which they think its the norm.. This is why I dont trade with many new guys on the board. Im fed up with that shit.
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#11 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:28 PM

This is why I dont trade with many new guys on the board. Im fed up with that shit.



I have done this too, which is also a part of the problem... Because not ALL of the newjacks are greedy pricks.
Coming in the door, old hands are sick of the waves of newjacks coming in to make money off of the hobby... But the reality is: At some point, we were all newjacks. At some point, we made our first deal on the board. Somebody had to break us in. All of us.

Newjack now, are coming on to the board, can pretty much ONLY DEAL WITH THE SNAKES. You won't touch them... I won't touch them.. No posts, no feedback? "Dangerous", we say.
But, the guys that are teaching them the supposed "culture" of the board, are the snakes, that will cut deals with anybody that they feel they can take advantage of in the long run.

I think a more effective way to deal with the issue, is to put the snakes on front street, and better educate the newjacks.
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#12 fkro6784

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

Maybe those types of people will eventually weed themselves out of the hobby? My perception of that type of collector is that they aren't in it for the long haul--they dive in, accumulate as much and spend as much as possible, try to offset their foolish spending choices by attempting to manipulate the market to make money back, then will eventually lose interest, sell their stuff and disappear. Their passion seems to be driven less by the stuff they're collecting or the positive connections they make and more by the need to feel bigger and better than other people (which, ironically, they're trying to do through toys of all things). Once they're done with toys, they'll probably move onto something else that allows them to feed their own egos and make them feel less insecure.

However, I realize that doesn't necessarily mean that once these types of people disappear a new crop won't pop up.

I think it's just important for the collectors who actually do have their heads on straight not to buy into that kind of behavior. If something is going for a lot more than it should, just refuse to bite. You and your toy shelf will survive without it.
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#13 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

Maybe those types of people will eventually weed themselves out of the hobby? My perception of that type of collector is that they aren't in it for the long haul--they dive in, accumulate as much and spend as much as possible, try to offset their foolish spending choices by attempting to manipulate the market to make money back, then will eventually lose interest, sell their stuff and disappear. Their passion seems to be driven less by the stuff they're collecting or the positive connections they make and more by the need to feel bigger and better than other people (which, ironically, they're trying to do through toys of all things). Once they're done with toys, they'll probably move onto something else that allows them to feed their own egos and make them feel less insecure.

However, I realize that doesn't necessarily mean that once these types of people disappear a new crop won't pop up.

I think it's just important for the collectors who actually do have their heads on straight not to buy into that kind of behavior. If something is going for a lot more than it should, just refuse to bite. You and your toy shelf will survive without it.


The problem is, these turds stick around JUST LONG ENOUGH to teach their bullshit to the new crop. They WILL eventually burn out, and go back to fantasy football or whatever, but not before leaving their "droppings" as the trends have indicated.

I totally agree, that patience and the willingness to say "no" to ridiculous prices are the best weapons against this insanity. That, and as I mentioned, making sure the newjacks know that they not only don't have to pay those prices... But, that doing so would make them very stupid people.


****EDIT*******
http://www.littlerubberguys.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154136&pid=484961&st=0&#entry484961

Click the link to see newer members NOT acting like turds, and trying to help each other out. This is what the MUSCLE community USED to be like.

Edited by ironmask, 28 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.

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#14 Ridureyu

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

Wow... that's one of the best threads I've seen on the topic.


And on a related note, you can go back to your old days of playing with toys, or at least reminisce about them for a book here: http://ctupa.com/blog/?p=1729

Amazing that I just found it right now today, when this should come up.


But yeah. Wow... that's such a good thread. And yes, there have always been issues - like when people accused Johnny of "buying up all the MUSCLEs" way back in the late '90s, but it's come to such a head now that it really is hurting the hobby. This whole community was founded because the toys are fun, not because they're valuable. And you know, if the economy keeps shitting itself the way it has been, they won't be worth much for very long. Think about that before you try to scam people or fight somebody over small Japanese rubber toys.

Edited by Ridureyu, 28 February 2013 - 12:59 PM.

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#15 Bagface

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:54 PM

Being a relative newcomer to the site, and for collecting M.U.S.C.L.E in general, i was under the impression when i first got here that it was a cut throat hobby. Im kinda sad that i missed the golden age of Muscle collecting lol. Ive scaled it back a bit, mainly going to stick with trading to try and get the rest of my flesh set. On the plus side though of this hobby being ridiculous at the moment is that i have gotten into an aspect of LRG that i never would have thought i would be interested in, which is the customs community.

I kind of see that as the diamond in the cow crap. I would have never branched out had the prices for Muscle not been ridiculous. And this way, instead of throwing money at someone that is jacking up the price of something, Im throwing money at people that have accomplished something on their own and that feels pretty freak'n good.

Ill stick with my customs for now, eventually Ill get a flesh set, Im in no rush. I hope to be here for a while.
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#16 Leitmotiv

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:08 PM

Yeah the Muscle line in particular has a community and a set of coincidences that make it a particularly bad cocktail. I look on in fascination really, much like it's hard to pull one's eyes from a car wreck. Personally, I don't have much of a Muscle collection (I don't even own a complete flesh set). I haven't traded with anyone here either. But I am still intrigued at the unique set of circumstances this line has manifested. The Super Rares themselves create this dense air of jealousy amongst the community and is felt bitterly by some on eBay. Even with lesser aspects than the supers, the line lends itself to die-hard collectors as a snake offers a tainted apple to Eve (just following through on the theme). The collectors dive in with good intentions only to be corrupted by the very thing they love.

There is definitely an aspect that you have to drink the punch to get along in this community. I've been in a few online forums and this one is definitely jaded, sometimes to the point of elitism and snobbery, and in part probably because some have been backstabbed by others. I can't comment myself, because I've never been serious about collecting the whole flesh set. I think the furthest I've gotten was seeking out a Satan Cross.

I've heard differing opinions on aforbes, but most alarming is that the mere mention of him places a target on your forehead. A target that is suggestive of banning, flaming, pretty much the whole nine yards. I truly believe in free speech, little forum clubs and their rules be damned. It's not the content that troubles me, but the responses to the content, that is most troubling.
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#17 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:14 PM

Yeah the Muscle line in particular has a community and a set of coincidences that make it a particularly bad cocktail. I look on in fascination really, much like it's hard to pull one's eyes from a car wreck. Personally, I don't have much of a Muscle collection (I don't even own a complete flesh set). I haven't traded with anyone here either. But I am still intrigued at the unique set of circumstances this line has manifested. The Super Rares themselves create this dense air of jealousy amongst the community and is felt bitterly by some on eBay. Even with lesser aspects than the supers, the line lends itself to die-hard collectors as a snake offers a tainted apple to Eve (just following through on the theme). The collectors dive in with good intentions only to be corrupted by the very thing they love.

There is definitely an aspect that you have to drink the punch to get along in this community. I've been in a few online forums and this one is definitely jaded, sometimes to the point of elitism and snobbery, and in part probably because some have been backstabbed by others. I can't comment myself, because I've never been serious about collecting the whole flesh set. I think the furthest I've gotten was seeking out a Satan Cross.

I've heard differing opinions on aforbes, but most alarming is that the mere mention of him places a target on your forehead. A target that is suggestive of banning, flaming, pretty much the whole nine yards. I truly believe in free speech, little forum clubs and their rules be damned. It's not the content that troubles me, but the responses to the content, that is most troubling.


I mean, the forum is a better place without the dude... But, I find it more alarming that his behaviors are being repeated by others and nobody seems to be doing anything about it.

To be perfectly honest, I was talking privately with another board member and I said something... And I can't think of a better way to put it right now, so I am just going to repeat myself:

I only bring this up, because I refuse to believe that the state of the hobby is a done deal. I refuse to believe that there isn't a solution, a positive solution, to all of this.
Like most problems, though, we can't begin the mending process, if we don't first acknowledge the issue.

Jealousy is definitely a major contributing factor, along with greed, and abject dishonesty. The MUSCLE community as a whole, is full of better people than that. Why have we let those with loose ethics dictate the state of our hobby?

Let's stop. Let's start making it better. Let's not have MUSCLE be "The Next GPK/BEB".
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#18 Rubberhammer

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:16 PM

I beleive the thing that gets me the most is when someone new comes in, spends a ton of cash to acquire as many figs as possible in a short amount of time, and then consider themselves an expert.

Do you know how many times, in the past year or so, that I have heard "Well it's not a class A fig on Veers list, but look at so-and-so's checklist, it's a class A on there!"

Also, @Bagface, I have flesh muscles, where is your needs list bro?
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#19 SmokinGun

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:55 PM

I mean, the forum is a better place without the dude... But, I find it more alarming that his behaviors are being repeated by others and nobody seems to be doing anything about it.


The community needs an active referee. Giving stikes, limited forum useage or the boot. I hate to see the community go into shits becuase of genital warts.
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#20 Toxoviper

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:01 PM

I just would like to point out that the Battle Beasts & MIMP community's are just as bad if not worse.
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#21 Soupie

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:23 PM

I just would like to point out that the Battle Beasts & MIMP community's are just as bad if not worse.

:closedeyes:
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#22 Ridureyu

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:35 PM

Yes, this is sadly true.
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#23 TheRiddler

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:47 PM

I beleive the thing that gets me the most is when someone new comes in, spends a ton of cash to acquire as many figs as possible in a short amount of time, and then consider themselves an expert.

Do you know how many times, in the past year or so, that I have heard "Well it's not a class A fig on Veers list, but look at so-and-so's checklist, it's a class A on there!"

Also, @Bagface, I have flesh muscles, where is your needs list bro?


Yea that is a huge annoyance....come in here ask a ton of "whats this worth" type questions then buy up everything as fast as possible and BOOM, you think you are an expert whose been here 10+ years....but i guess those type of people are only kidding themselves and wasting a ton of money...
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#24 ironmask

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:23 PM

The community needs an active referee. Giving stikes, limited forum useage or the boot. I hate to see the community go into shits becuase of genital warts.


We HAVE "Referees".

I think it's not that simple. We have to police ourselves. We have the power and ability to change the hobby back into something positive... So why aren't we? Why are we spending this much time picking petty arguments with each other, instead of making the hobby great again?


I say, let's cut the shit.
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#25 imperfecz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

I've been attempting to curb my shit. Maybe if we start finding ways to make things more fun. Look back at old threads you enjoyed. I remember Dan's daily ebay finds... or whatever it was called. Always had interesting stuff and was fun. Hmmmmmmm.....



Keep adding positive, curb the negative......... could squeeze out the crap if it's not paid so much attention too. Yeah great thread. Thanks for laying it out on the table.
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