137 replies to this topic

[asator]

I have to say that, as far as making shady actions public goes, CZArcher tried to do that exact thing a while ago and was blasted for it because he didnt do it in the Members Feedback forum. Even though he was being completely annoying about it in my opinion, bringing it up at every possible moment, I dont see a difference with what he was trying to do and with what people think should have been done with the whole yapiel thing. If someone would have posted in Alex's feedback thread about that whole fiasco, would it have made any difference?

Basically what I'm saying is that even when someone here does try to warn others about bad dealers, they get treated poorly for it. And while I do think CZ was taking it to the extreme, I for one was sick of hearing about it, he was only trying to inform people. But in the end the vets here just made him look like a giant dildo for even bringing it to the open forum.

Where is the middle ground? If we expect people to be vocal about being screwed, we have to make sure NOT to condemn that person for being vocal.


Also, I have to say that as far as everyone being shady once in a while, speak for yourself bud. I for one have never, and will never, try anything shady with you folks. There are still some of us who have codes of ethics and honor. That seems like an outdated term doesnt it? Honor? Yes, honor. Those of you who have dealt with me know what I mean. Just recently I had a snag with a trade and believe me, I'll do whatever I can within reason to make things right. As a matter of fact, that person is getting some free stuff from me as a sign of apology. Do I have to do that? Yes, I do. Personally I feel obligated to make things right. This place is only as good as the people who deal here, and if I can do something a little extra to make people feel good about this place and about trading here, you better bet your ass I'm gonna do it. In the end, this place is about more than toys to me. If I had to stop collecting today, and give away all my toys, would I still come here? Yes I would.

So save your generalization about how "everyone does it" to some degree.

[hunterrose2000]

While I do not praise the "art" of the shill bid, as a seller, why not use any possible resource to get the maximum value for the product you are attempting to sell? Nothing is more frustrating than to see an item that you have sell for $300 regularly on eBay for other sellers, and when you post it only sells for say $75. If people are willing to spend $300, why not "let" them spend $300?

The same logic can be applied with trading. If I have an item that's worth $100 that I'm trading to Joe Blow for and item that's worth $150, aren't I essentially ripping off Joe Blow for $50? That sort of thing happens all the time, esspecially on message boards such as this one and most of us have been in on a trade like that.

My arguement is that Alex was doing the same thing, but to a much greater level. I think it's kinda hard for us to talk shizznit about Alex simply because he got caught. It's funny, and yes, somewhat sad, but we're all guilty of it here.

Unless you're dealing with MSRP or the stock market, there's no such thing as a "known" value at any particular time. You might see an item go for $300 9 times in a row, but if that 10th one doesn't sell or sells for less, than that's exactly what it is worth to the potential buyers at that time. Prices fluctuate. But shilling is using fraud to raise the price. And what's to stop you from shilling up past $300? You've already raised the current price past wherever it was going to be to $300.

If you are stuck on $300 (or more) then you list it at a set price, or with a starting bid of $300. You don't dupe people with a low start, and then pose as a fake buyer to raise up the price. Auctions are about letting the buyers set the price by real competition in real time--like the stock market. And shilling is pretty much the same as stock fraud. You buy a ton of some cheap junk, then, usually under a different name, you hype up the stock to others. They start buying it and the price goes up. When it gets high enough, you dump your massive amount of shares, which lowers the value of the stock and everyone else is left with the junk you started with. With shilling, you've led someone else to believe that there are others (a market) that puts a greater value on the item than it would otherwise have. Same thing with the MDB manipulation.

And it's just not in the same league as an uneven trade. Joe Blow might not know about the fact that he could get $150 from someone else, but it's not your duty to tell him that. Every trade is subjective. Each person must value the other person's item more highly than the one they currently own, or they wouldn't make the trade. Now, you veer off into dangerous territory when you start lying to the other person about the value. Depending on the extent of that lie, you're either being a tough salesman, or you're ripping them off. But, arforbes didn't get "caught" on that, although he seems to have done it quite a lot. He got caught perpetrating an outright fraud, several times. Hopefully, that's NOT something everyone else is guilty of, otherwise, we'd be in bad shape.

[Personality #9]

Also, I have to say that as far as everyone being shady once in a while, speak for yourself bud. I for one have never, and will never, try anything shady with you folks. There are still some of us who have codes of ethics and honor... So save your generalization about how "everyone does it" to some degree.

Let's not take what I'm saying out of context here. In a perfect world, everybody would come out as a winner on transactions made, but this is not a perfect world. That being said, I'm simply raising a sound question that everybody should consider. It's easy (and nice) to think that each and every one of us is 100% and honorable in all our transactions, but that is not the case. Alex is a prime example of this. A lot of members on this forum, as well as people on eBay have done business with Alex at one time or another, under one name or another (arforbes, yapiel, balucard, more[?]) so with Alex's practices being brought to light, I feel now is a good time for all of us to re-examine our own practices to see if some of us have started to do things that we're condemning him for.

As I have stated, Alex's case seems to be the extreme here. But just because it "seems" to be extreme doesn't mean that it is the extreme. It could be a practice that is far more common than any of us might expect. Alex isn't the first person to create a dup account and eBay for the purpose of shilling, and he won't be the last. I've personally quit bidding on auctions that appeared to be shilled, and I've experiemented with practices to ensure that I don't overpay for what items I do purchase. Not being a big toy collector, I generally don't dabble with trades all too often, so I admit that I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to that.

I'm just brining some ideas to the forefront here. I'm not implying that anybody specifically here is doing these things.

[Soupie]

And it's just not in the same league as an uneven trade. Joe Blow might not know about the fact that he could get $150 from someone else, but it's not your duty to tell him that. Every trade is subjective. Each person must value the other person's item more highly than the one they currently own, or they wouldn't make the trade. Now, you veer off into dangerous territory when you start lying to the other person about the value. Depending on the extent of that lie, you're either being a tough salesman, or you're ripping them off. But, arforbes didn't get "caught" on that, although he seems to have done it quite a lot. He got caught perpetrating an outright fraud, several times. Hopefully, that's NOT something everyone else is guilty of, otherwise, we'd be in bad shape.

Very, VERY well said, mate!

And even though only a few of us have really been participating in the part of the discussion, it is fascinating to see the range of opinions. Hopefully after reading this thread, LRG members will become a little more, er, informed about how others think about collecting/trading/selling.

Also, some time ago, I mentioned creating an "official" LRG thread about healthy collecting... I wonder if such a thread couldn't be created and pinned that also gave some general outlines for "fair" trading/selling. For example, general disclaimers for buyers/sellers to follow. Just a thought. Maybe it would help "noobs" from getting "ripped off."

[Beligerant1]

I have said before that I can't completely feel sorry for someone that gets their bid maximized by a shill bidder, because noone made them bid that high. By the fact they entered that bid, they showed they were willing to pay that much to get the item. A shill bidder couldn't get me to pay $400 for a sealed satan cross 4-pack if he tried, he would instead win his own auction. But that doesn't excuse the shill bidder.

I can see what personality #9 is saying, basically there is a large grey area where some people might consider a behavior unethical and some might not. Some people would say sniping an auction is poor form, but most see it as part of the game. The spectrum can be interpreted differently by different people, and sometimes differently in different situations by the same person. I think most people would place shill bidding far on the unethical side of the spectrum.

[NamaNiku]

Shill Bidding is illegal - trading items at different prices is not.

If something is worth $300 and regularly sells for that amount, then sell it for $300. Do not break the law and manipulate the price on your own. There is a huge difference in those tactics. No one ever went to jail for trading something over value.

[Personality #9]

I can see what personality #9 is saying, basically there is a large grey area where some people might consider a behavior unethical and some might not. Some people would say sniping an auction is poor form, but most see it as part of the game. The spectrum can be interpreted differently by different people, and sometimes differently in different situations by the same person. I think most people would place shill bidding far on the unethical side of the spectrum.

Yes, that is exactly what I have been saying Beligerant1. Thank you for confirming what I've been saying! :-)

[Personality #9]

Shill Bidding is illegal - trading items at different prices is not.

If something is worth $300 and regularly sells for that amount, then sell it for $300. Do not break the law and manipulate the price on your own. There is a huge difference in those tactics. No one ever went to jail for trading something over value.

Do/should owners of retail stores get arrested for "manipulating" the prices of the items that they have in stock?

[NamaNiku]

Shill Bidding is illegal - trading items at different prices is not.

If something is worth $300 and regularly sells for that amount, then sell it for $300. Do not break the law and manipulate the price on your own. There is a huge difference in those tactics. No one ever went to jail for trading something over value.

Do/should owners of retail stores get arrested for "manipulating" the prices of the items that they have in stock?

Stocks and Auctions are regulated differently than retail goods - in retail and resale, retailers and resalers are allowed to set their own prices and the customer can determine if the price is fair or not.

I get and respect your point, however auctions are completely different because there are so many unseen factors that determine the price of the goods.

In retail and resale the final price is determined by the seller - In Auctions and Stocks, the final price or value of the item is determined by the buyer - that is why it is unethical and illegal for the seller to manipulate the price.

Edited by uoozuman, 04 June 2008 - 01:08 PM.

[Soupie]

I know it might not seem like it, but I'm not trying to stir up trouble. But I have to say in black and white terms: Shill bidding is WRONG. Sorry, P9, but I don't think it can be justified in any way shape or form -- or compared to a toys-for-toys trade between two people.

Look at it like this:

Scenario One:

Person A has a rare Gumball Beast. Person B offers them a MUSCLE SC and a rare colored figure for the Gumball Beast. They agree and swap. (As long as they are happy with what they got, it was a FAIR trade even if one or the other got the more "valuable" toys.)

Scenario Two:

Person A has a rare Gumball Beast. Person B offers them a MUSCLE SC and a rare colored figure for the Gumball Beast. Person A, wanting more for the trade creates a fictitious Person C. Person A tells the other party that they have been offered a SC and 2 rare colored MUSCLEs for the Gumball Beast. In response, Person B offers the SC and 4 colored figures. Person A accepts.

The difference between these two scenarios is quite clear to me. IN the first scenario, both people were on a level playing field and there was NO deception. In the second, one person deceived the other to get more from them. That to me, plain as day, is wrong in no uncertain terms.

[Personality #9]

Sorry, P9, but I don't think it can be justified in any way shape or form

For the record, I'm not saying shill bidding is right nor am I justifying it or suggesting it be done.

[hunterrose2000]

I have said before that I can't completely feel sorry for someone that gets their bid maximized by a shill bidder, because noone made them bid that high. By the fact they entered that bid, they showed they were willing to pay that much to get the item. A shill bidder couldn't get me to pay $400 for a sealed satan cross 4-pack if he tried, he would instead win his own auction. But that doesn't excuse the shill bidder.

To a certain extent, I agree that it's not always a healthy practice to drastically change how you value an item based on what others are willing to pay...but to a varying degrees, that's what we do all the time. It's basic human nature to want what others want. If someone else values an item, then it's got to have some value. MUSCLES would be worth practically nothing if no one else placed any value on them (and that's exactly how it was for some time). The main reason one piece of plastic is valued more highly than another piece of plastic, is because other people are competing for it and are willing to to pay more. Shill bidding gives the buyer a false picture of that competition. The buyer thinks that he's got to step it up if he wants the item bad enough, or he has to decide to walk away. Either the shiller bumps the buyer up just enough to be happy, or he overbids and offers a second chance buy. Either way, your top bid was only what you were willing to pay under the most competitive circumstances. You probably weren't willing to pay that much unless there was competition. And if this is tolerated to any extent, then all it does is set a precedent for the next auction. Prices get inflated, and in the end, everyone is screwed except the sellers.

Even the sellers who also buy get screwed. Just look at arforbes. It's been mentioned by others, but he was probably caught up in his own tornado of inflation. The more he wanted those rare items, the more he paid, and the more he had to get for his sales in order to support the purchases. He took a dark path pretty early on (with Yapiel at least), so it's not even remotely excusable, but you can at least understand it. He was the force behind much of the increasing prices for rares and other figures alike. So, if you care about this staying an affordable hobby, you have to come down hard on that type of inflation.

Do/should owners of retail stores get arrested for "manipulating" the prices of the items that they have in stock?

The comparison is just way off. A seller advertising a price is not manipulating it. When you advertise retail, you either sell, or you don't, at the price you named. Because people have other retail options. When you get into price collusion and monopolies, then you go back to that illegal/unfair area where the price of an item is no longer linked to reality---what actual people in real competition are willing to pay for it---its just linked to whatever the seller wants to receive.

And Soupie, I agree 100% with that fair trading thread idea. I think it could go a long way toward repairing this situation and preventing future problems.

Edited by hunterrose2000, 04 June 2008 - 01:34 PM.

[Tortle]

I'll have to agree with Soups... shill bidding is full of crap. It's anti-thematic to the concept of auctions. In an off-line auction, the only person who knows how much the buyer will spend is the buyer. eBay tries to mimic that concept by letting the buyer put in his/her maximum bid and keeping it secret to the seller, but that system can be manipulated for the benefit of the seller by shill bidding. It's totally unfair to the buyer, which is why eBay doesn't allow it.

The seller has options: he/she can either have a higher starting bid, or just sell the item outright at the price that he/she wants to. But shill bidding, if it was allowed, would destroy buyer confidence in eBay, and rightfully so. It's completely unfair to the buyer.

Do/should owners of retail stores get arrested for "manipulating" the prices of the items that they have in stock?

Yes, they should and they do if they use anti-competitive practices like collusion. Comparing collusions to shill bidding is like comparing apples to oranges, but the idea is that there are rules that are in place to ensure fair practices, and sellers have to play by the rules.

[matthewf1tz]

Do/should owners of retail stores get arrested for "manipulating" the prices of the items that they have in stock?

Yes, they should and they do if they use anti-competitive practices like collusion. Comparing collusions to shill bidding is like comparing apples to oranges, but the idea is that there are rules that are in place to ensure fair practices, and sellers have to play by the rules.

It's pretty much off topic but we saw this in the UK recently:

Supermarket firms Sainsbury's and Asda have admitted that they were part of a dairy price-fixing group that earned about £270m extra from shoppers.
The supermarkets, along with a number of dairy firms, have agreed to pay fines totalling some £116m after an Office of Fair Trading (OFT) probe.

Cases against Tesco and Morrisons will continue after no deal was struck.

The OFT said that in-store prices went up after the collusion, but the amount received by farmers did not increase.

However, the firms insist that the farm gate price paid for milk did rise and that they were not ripping off customers.

The OFT said the collusion saw customers being charged 3 pence extra for a pint of milk, 15p extra per quarter-pound of butter and 15p per half-pound of cheese, the watchdog said.

Looks like the Supermarkets are in denial too!
On the subject of shill bidding etc it raised a point in my head. It's common place on LRG (I myself have done it many times) to speak to other collectors when a desirable item comes up on ebay, and try and keep the price down. There's ways of doing it:

- Go in with another collector/s and split the goods up, that way you're not bidding against each other
- Tell people you're bidding on an item and ask them not to
- If you trust each other enough, each say what your max bid is and then only person with the highest figure bids. The others will lose anyway so there is no point.

Obviously all the above are the benefits of a close & friendly community but are we screwing the sellers?? I certainly don't feel bad about it but should I???

[Kevin Mayle]

Let’s just call a spade a spade. It was always about Alex. It is like stating a thread, “What would you do if planes crashed into a skyscraper in your city?”

I don't know. The very first response to my original post showed that at least meatcutta78 got the point I was making. Since then, it has had nothing to do with my topic, but if I may digress back to my original direction, I'll continue. For those of you that read my posts and think, "What a quaint old fogey" while you roll your eyes, you may want to skip reading this, and get back to the Alex bashing and Ebay etiquette advice.
I came from the MPS days in the 90's and had a hand in bringing back Darrin and the MPS, Jason and the MCW and even Tim Drage after I joined the AKIA (now LRG). One thing I noticed, as well as Darrin, Jason etc. was the current state of MUSCLE collecting was very different from what we remembered. In e-mails, the old crew let me know that they don't feel they fit in here anymore, and specifically cited Alex as the dominating force of the current groups' image. Not anything shady, they don't know anything about that stuff, just the seriousness of the collecting. The cataloguing, the hoarding, the huge amounts of cash dropped on individual figures. (Weren't those super rares bought for around a $1000 apiece?) The picture they got was one of a business-like atmosphere, full of hungry sharks that have no need for comradere and community if it was going to get in the way of amassing their collections. Now I've been here enough to know that that is not really the case for most of the members, but Alex's behavior always intrigued me. Again, not in a shady nature. More of an all-consuming life-mission. When he started laying down really serious cash for as many Super Rares as he could get, I wondered what it must be like for him, knowing that he wasn't going to be able to get all of them. His actions led me to believe that the most important thing in the world to him, his very reason for existance, was to have the greatest MUSCLE collection on the Earth. Faced with the knowledge that there were a handfull of one-of-a-kind figures that escaped his grasp must have been killing him. Or so I thought. I even asked him a thread awhile back (my only communication with him ever) what that fact was doing to his psyche. He responded that it didn't bother him because he believed his continuing search would eventually reveal more examples of those Super Rares, or something to that effect. So now I'm back to performing my psychological dissection of a person who I consider to be an example of an extreme personality. Someone at the absolute far end of a spectrum of behavior that most of us will never approach.

[Soupie]

[I]f I may digress back to my original direction, I'll continue. For those of you that read my posts and think, "What a quaint old fogey" while you roll your eyes, you may want to skip reading this, and get back to the Alex bashing...

I came from the MPS days in the 90's and had a hand in bringing back Darrin and the MPS, Jason and the MCW and even Tim Drage after I joined the AKIA (now LRG). One thing I noticed, as well as Darrin, Jason etc. was the current state of MUSCLE collecting was very different from what we remembered. In e-mails, the old crew let me know that they don't feel they fit in here anymore, and specifically cited Alex as the dominating force of the current groups' image. Not anything shady, they don't know anything about that stuff, just the seriousness of the collecting. The cataloguing, the hoarding, the huge amounts of cash dropped on individual figures. (Weren't those super rares bought for around a $1000 apiece?) The picture they got was one of a business-like atmosphere, full of hungry sharks that have no need for comradere and community if it was going to get in the way of amassing their collections. Now I've been here enough to know that that is not really the case for most of the members, but Alex's behavior always intrigued me. Again, not in a shady nature. More of an all-consuming life-mission. When he started laying down really serious cash for as many Super Rares as he could get, I wondered what it must be like for him, knowing that he wasn't going to be able to get all of them. His actions led me to believe that the most important thing in the world to him, his very reason for existance, was to have the greatest MUSCLE collection on the Earth. Faced with the knowledge that there were a handfull of one-of-a-kind figures that escaped his grasp must have been killing him. Or so I thought. I even asked him a thread awhile back (my only communication with him ever) what that fact was doing to his psyche. He responded that it didn't bother him because he believed his continuing search would eventually reveal more examples of those Super Rares, or something to that effect. So now I'm back to performing my psychological dissection of a person who I consider to be an example of an extreme personality. Someone at the absolute far end of a spectrum of behavior that most of us will never approach.

Uh, isn't this all about Arforbes?



KM, it's okay to discuss/vent about arforbes. It's knocked the wind out of all of us.

[Kevin Mayle]

Uh, isn't this all about Arforbes?



KM, it's okay to discuss/vent about arforbes. It's knocked the wind out of all of us.

It's a psychological dissection of Arforbes, and my curiosity of how the mind of an extreme personality operates, brought about by the actions of Arforbes. It's not a vent about how he ripped me off. He didn't and therefore I wouldn't start a thread about that. I'm openly and publicly pondering the inner workings of Arforbes mind, based on his actions. I don't really care what people want to say about him. I'm just clarifying that I, who has had no business dealings with him, did not start a thread bashing his business practices.

[cassel87]

trying to keep up and read this whole thread is crazy. its like a volume of long novels, that i have been reading for probably about 45 minutes now. It is very interesting though.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I understand sort of what K man is saying. I would have loved to been in the original Muscle group back in the day. He's right. Alot of this group is mostly wheeling and Dealing and not so much comradery (is that how it's spelled?). Even many of the members here have made their hobby into a business. (not that it's wrong to do so at all!) I can only imagine what the community was like back then, when everything was happy trading and even odds, where most figures didn't have extreme value and even the Goalie was affordable! Many people here come for the game, and not so much for the play I feel. I feel like I've been a part of the ridiculous value jump on the Colored muscles too. Even though that might not be true, it just seems like I may have helped hurt the hobby more than help it. I feel like I've said that somewhere before. Maybe I'm just floating around in dream land. Even I have had Greed flashes when it came to trades with individuals. I really regret those.

I guess I'd rather be a Guppie with a school of friends, than a Shark who is a lone hunter. I don't know if anything I ever say here makes sense.

[hunterrose2000]

I came from the MPS days in the 90's and had a hand in bringing back Darrin and the MPS, Jason and the MCW and even Tim Drage after I joined the AKIA (now LRG). One thing I noticed, as well as Darrin, Jason etc. was the current state of MUSCLE collecting was very different from what we remembered. In e-mails, the old crew let me know that they don't feel they fit in here anymore, and specifically cited Alex as the dominating force of the current groups' image. Not anything shady, they don't know anything about that stuff, just the seriousness of the collecting. The cataloguing, the hoarding, the huge amounts of cash dropped on individual figures. (Weren't those super rares bought for around a $1000 apiece?) The picture they got was one of a business-like atmosphere, full of hungry sharks that have no need for comradere and community if it was going to get in the way of amassing their collections. Now I've been here enough to know that that is not really the case for most of the members, but Alex's behavior always intrigued me. Again, not in a shady nature. More of an all-consuming life-mission. When he started laying down really serious cash for as many Super Rares as he could get, I wondered what it must be like for him, knowing that he wasn't going to be able to get all of them. His actions led me to believe that the most important thing in the world to him, his very reason for existance, was to have the greatest MUSCLE collection on the Earth. Faced with the knowledge that there were a handfull of one-of-a-kind figures that escaped his grasp must have been killing him. Or so I thought. I even asked him a thread awhile back (my only communication with him ever) what that fact was doing to his psyche. He responded that it didn't bother him because he believed his continuing search would eventually reveal more examples of those Super Rares, or something to that effect. So now I'm back to performing my psychological dissection of a person who I consider to be an example of an extreme personality. Someone at the absolute far end of a spectrum of behavior that most of us will never approach.

It might not have been your exact intention to have the thread progress as it did, but if you read most of the posts, it all ties in. I was most recently talking about how arforbes' spiraling behavior with the rares lead to the price increases, and I noted before how this behavior just poisons the atmosphere. I think your story here is a perfect example of that. Even without the shilling, etc, the super rare obsession and price inflation was not helpful to the community. But unfortunately, the shilling and fraudulent behavior is there, and its inherently wrapped up in everything. I think you just have to look at the examples where he got caught, and you can see that it wasn't just arforbes being willing to pay a lot that drove up prices to an insane level. His trickery had a lot to do with that as well. So I don't think anyone is really ignoring the stuff you're discussing. And it's definitely important.

[Kevin Mayle]

I understand sort of what K man is saying....
...I don't know if anything I ever say here makes sense.

Your entire post made perfect sense to me.

[Soupie]

It might not have been your exact intention to have the thread progress as it did, but if you read most of the posts, it all ties in. I was most recently talking about how arforbes' spiraling behavior with the rares lead to the price increases, and I noted before how this behavior just poisons the atmosphere. I think your story here is a perfect example of that. Even without the shilling, etc, the super rare obsession and price inflation was not helpful to the community. But unfortunately, the shilling and fraudulent behavior is there, and its inherently wrapped up in everything. I think you just have to look at the examples where he got caught, and you can see that it wasn't just arforbes being willing to pay a lot that drove up prices to an insane level. His trickery had a lot to do with that as well. So I don't think anyone is really ignoring the stuff you're discussing. And it's definitely important.

Beat me to it! Yes, that's what I was going to say: How can you have a "psychological dissection" of Arforbes obsession with completing a color set and having every Super Rare... and not discuss how this DIRECTLY translated into his collecting tactics? They are SO connected as to virtually be one and the same. The unhealthy obsession drove the unethical dealings.

(PS -- I've been meaning to say this for about 50 posts now: There were TWO Dr. Bombes!? )

[Soupie]

I mean, I think you may be right KM that Arforbes was obsessed with getting a full set and all the SRs... so what were his options? How could he get the edge over other collectors?

We have our answer.

[Kevin Mayle]

It might not have been your exact intention to have the thread progress as it did, but if you read most of the posts, it all ties in...
...So I don't think anyone is really ignoring the stuff you're discussing. And it's definitely important.

No, I don't mind the new direction at all. It's a lot more relavent than my personal little trip I started.
I just wanted to clear up my original stance, especially once the Alex bashing rules for the thread were posted and the title was suggested that it needed to be changed to something reflecting the Alex bashing nature of the thread. And I really felt I had to clear up my intention when it was stated that the thread was in poor taste and I couldn't call it a psychological dissection.
I don't know how I can make this any more clear. I started a thread about my thoughts on what is in Alex's mind. There really wasn't anywhere someone could take that beyond the type of post that meatcutta78 gave. The thread was then utilized as a place to discuss his business practices. I didn't mind that at all, because that's what people want to talk about. Yes, they are two different subjects that can go hand in hand. I feel anyone here can discuss anything they would like about Alex in this thread. They don't have to stay within the context I was presenting, but could expand it to anything they would like. I was just trying to defend MY position on the subject and reason for starting the thread, when it was deemed that I was not making a psychological dissection, but I was instead acting in poor taste and attacking the business practices of someone who can not defend themself.
Oh, and by the way, it's OK to "ignore what I was discussing" because it was pretty much me just thinking aloud. The new direction the thread has taken is of much more interest to everyone here.
And I think I've used the words "psychological dissection" way too much now.

Edited by Kevin Mayle, 04 June 2008 - 03:51 PM.

[Beligerant1]

(PS -- I've been meaning to say this for about 50 posts now: There were TWO Dr. Bombes!? )

Haha, I read that, and thought the same thing, then got distracted by all the other posts