Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo
- - - - -

My Search for MUSCLE Answers


  • Please log in to reply
148 replies to this topic

#26 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 11 July 2003 - 10:04 AM

It's futile to debate the origins of super-rares because all of our theories (especially mine) are absolute conjecture.

First off, I’m not trying to pat myself on the back. So please don’t take it that way.

Isn’t this the first theory that isn’t based on conjecture? Before the only information we had was the poster, a SC in a 4-pack, and Kinkeshi.

Now we know a little bit more information.

Who actually manufactured the figures? = Bandai Japan
How long were MUSCLE’s an active product? = 2 years
Plus that Bandai USA released the figures in Latin America too.

These are things we didn’t factually know.

I’m not saying THIS is the only theory. But it kind of goes back to our evolution vs. creationism debate. I think right now, with this new information, perhaps this is the leading theory?

Do you understand what I mean? :woot:

Edited by General Veers, 11 July 2003 - 10:05 AM.

  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)





#27 arforbes

arforbes

    I lied, I cheated, I got banned!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6788 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 July 2003 - 10:38 AM

On a side note, I've never really gone for the choking hazard theory personally. Would SHA's head and BHS's chest insert really be that much of a choking risk? It seems like those parts are small enough that they would have a better chance of being swallowed without incident. Of course, maybe they just look like that to me since I'm now a small child. I don't own either so maybe Alex could tell us better about the size of those parts.

The SHA's head and the BHS chest piece are about 3/8 inches long and 1/4 inches wide.

:woot:
  • 0
AKA Yapiel, AKA balucard
I was banned! Read ALL about it! http://www.littlerub...showtopic=23333

#1 on the LRG Dishonest Members list!

#28 pasvagrsvj

pasvagrsvj

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 585 posts

Posted 11 July 2003 - 11:00 AM

Marty, I'll ask you this since you know a lot more about molding plastic than the rest of us.

Is it possible that pieces like dm with his cane, bhs and sha with their small parts were highly susceptible to molding flaws? When the pieces were translated from the rubber material to the us muscle material maybe some didn't mold as well. If several toys out of each mold of 12 figures were defective each time you cranked them out, maybe you would just pull that figure from the line???
  • 0

#29 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 11 July 2003 - 11:13 AM

On a side note, I've never really gone for the choking hazard theory personally. Would SHA's head and BHS's chest insert really be that much of a choking risk? It seems like those parts are small enough that they would have a better chance of being swallowed without incident.


The SHA's head and the BHS chest piece are about 3/8 inches long and 1/4 inches wide.

Here’s some interesting information about child safety. I think we should keep in mind that these are 2003 guidelines, not 1986 & 1987 guidelines. They could be different. I got the information here, http://www.safekids.org/

In 1994 and 1995 the United States Congress passed and the Consumer Product Safety Commission implemented the Child Safety Protection Act. The CSPA requires, among other things, the banning or labeling of toys that pose a choking risk to small children. The CPSA specifically requires:

2. Any toy or game that is intended for use by children who are at least 3 years old but less than 7 years of age be conspicuously labeled with a warning statement that the toy contains a “small part” and it therefore poses a choking hazard to small children. The Act defines a small part as one that fits completely into a “small part tester” with a diameter of 1.25 inches.


I also went to “The Consumer Product Safety Commission” and couldn’t find any Mattel recalls from 1985-1988 (Actually ’88 had something about cribs). Although I did find this…

http://www.cpsc.gov/.../cpsr_nws03.pdf

On page six it has an interesting graph, notice that action figures aren’t on the list.

I have also contacted the Consumer Product Safety Commission to try and get addition information about 1986 and 1987.

Here is a link to other “watch dog” sites…
http://www.cpsc.gov/federal.html
  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)

#30 THEGODBEAST

THEGODBEAST

    Y/S*N*T

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5376 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 July 2003 - 11:35 AM

First off,
Nathan, I took no offense at all to your comments. I was only trying to turn down your well know "skepticizm!" (After Johnny's little SUPER RARE joke you are going to be super skeptical on everything now! Ha! Ha! Ha!) I don't blame ya (sorry for my part).

As far as molding process, the big plastics manufacturers use injection molding. There are rarely flaws or even flaws that would case them to stop production of a figure. Keep in mind everyone that Mattel, Bandai, etc... they don't produce the figures, they design them and send them to Tiawan, Hong Kong, Mexico, etc... plastic toy producing plants!

To be honest,
The super rares can be only 2 things:

#1 Salesman samples or prototypes

OR

#2 Foreign distribution or test market distribution


I believe they are #2!!!

Seriously look at other toy lines that had choking hazards and were stopped:
Battle Star Galactica the Cylons mini ships had red missle projectiles that were changed into glued in missles, however, tons made it to market.

Rocket firing Fett-never even made it to production.

Not to mention I agree that the BHS and SHA little pieces are less a choking hazard than a meat, peanut, or DM. The BHS and SHA pieces could easily go down with out harm like a vintage SW stormtrooper blaster!

No way on the choking hazard.

I truly think that they were tail enders and maybe only released in test market areas and maybe foriegn release.

THEGODBEAST
  • 0

#31 Tortle

Tortle

    Nathan

  • Legends
  • 4763 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 July 2003 - 12:25 PM

Isn’t this the first theory that isn’t based on conjecture?

Hm... this debate is sounding familiar...

Anyway, we're making some pretty huge jumps of logic either way. I guess your theory is based more on evidence, although watch out for logical fallacies. This is the thought process here:

1) MUSCLE toys were also available in Latin Ameria and Canada.
2) BHS, SHA, and DM are really hard to find, and not shown on the poster.
3) Therefore, BHS, SHA, and DM were only available in Canada or Latin America.

That's a pretty big jump, I think, between events that are not necessarily linked. Of course, my theory isn't any better from a logical standpoint. I think you guys have pretty much convinced me that your theory is just as likely as mine with this statement:

The BHS and SHA pieces could easily go down with out harm like a vintage SW stormtrooper blaster!


Good point. My main reason for thinking the hazard-theory (which has nothing to do with the Dukes, mind you) was that BHS and SHA had small removable parts, and DM had a cane that could impale an eye. But now that you mention it, most of the freaking-out regarding choking hazards was with projectiles: Rocket-Firing Boba, Battlestar Galactica Viper, small Shogun Warriors, etc.

I dunno... maybe Mattel thought that the color of the BHS and SHA parts would make it look more like food... maybe the figures were available in another country... who the eff knows?

-Nathan

Edited by Tortle, 11 July 2003 - 12:34 PM.

  • 0

#32 THEGODBEAST

THEGODBEAST

    Y/S*N*T

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5376 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 July 2003 - 12:37 PM

Yup,
back then most choking hazards were labeled choking hazards, they still made small weapons and accessories. They didn't pull them.

Back then it was projectiles, the whole "you'll shoot your eye out thing!"

So, I think that it really has to be either:

#1 Salesman samples or prototypes

OR

#2 Foreign distribution or test market distribution

They could be jumps, however, those are really the most logical explainations as of right now.

Either, makes these figures SUPER RARE!!!

Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!
HE! HE! HE!

THEGODBEAST
  • 0

#33 doc_moore_j

doc_moore_j

    LRG Elite

  • Legends
  • 4369 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grand Junction, Colorado
  • Interests:Muscle men, and Kinnikuman

Posted 11 July 2003 - 01:49 PM

Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!

I heard it was more of a fetish. I saw him and Spinning head Ashura man dressed in drag. Just teasing of course Alex.

To add to the topic. I thought Muscle came out around 82' I may be wrong, I'll look at the copyrights on my four packs. As far as the super rares go, I honestly feel that they came out early in the series, which is why we have only seen them in pink. Remember talking about this a long ways back, there was someone who posted another Ashura man, it was a clip of a commercial for the Muscle Ring, anybody remember this or have that picture? Because that would make me assume there is another super rare out there, maybe super duper rare infact. The Ashura man had really long arms raised in the air. Someone post that pic dammit. Anyways. My two cents. I have done absolutely zero research, just been around for awhile to have my own ideas. I think the Latin America and French rares has some serious potential.
  • 0

#34 arforbes

arforbes

    I lied, I cheated, I got banned!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6788 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 July 2003 - 05:27 PM


Which still keeps Alex happy, you know, with his "Super Rare" diesease and all!

I heard it was more of a fetish. I saw him and Spinning head Ashura man dressed in drag. Just teasing of course Alex.

Haha! :D

Remember talking about this a long ways back, there was someone who posted another Ashura man, it was a clip of a commercial for the Muscle Ring, anybody remember this or have that picture?...

...The Ashura man had really long arms raised in the air.  Someone post that pic dammit.


I do remember that pic. I think all the M.U.S.C.L.E. commercials were done with Kinnikuman figures though, isn't that what someone said too? I'm not sure, but if they were M.U.S.C.L.E.s Doc, then that is definitely another Super Rare. We just need to find one! :D

B)
  • 0
AKA Yapiel, AKA balucard
I was banned! Read ALL about it! http://www.littlerub...showtopic=23333

#1 on the LRG Dishonest Members list!

#35 AmoiMan

AmoiMan

    Garlic Energized

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1607 posts

Posted 12 July 2003 - 03:43 AM

In 1994 and 1995 the United States Congress passed and the Consumer Product Safety Commission implemented the Child Safety Protection Act. The CSPA requires, among other things, the banning or labeling of toys that pose a choking risk to small children. The CPSA specifically requires:

2. Any toy or game that is intended for use by children who are at least 3 years old but less than 7 years of age be conspicuously labeled with a warning statement that the toy contains a “small part” and it therefore poses a choking hazard to small children. The Act defines a small part as one that fits completely into a “small part tester” with a diameter of 1.25 inches.


Hmmm....well then according to that, the smaller figures like the 2 Meats, Puyo Puyo, Doc Nakano, The Ball, & Sunshine 195 would probably be considered choking hazards.

I was a pretty firm believer in that theory.....ugh :(
Of course, the above was putinto effect 10 years after MUSCLEs :cry:
  • 0
Posted Image

#36 THEGODBEAST

THEGODBEAST

    Y/S*N*T

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5376 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 July 2003 - 05:00 AM

Yeah,
But, choking hazards just means that the company has to label it as a choking hazard. It doesn't mean the company has to pull it from production.

Look at the Medabots today! By the way, those are some kick arse figures when you have them all (which I and my son do)! Those figures have some of the smallest parts ever!!! They disassemble and reassemble, with ultra super tiny parts way smaller than the BHS and SHA parts!

THEGODBEAST
  • 0

#37 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 July 2003 - 05:59 AM

MUSCLE’s WERE NOT RECALLED!

Here is some more information I was able to dig up. It is from Todd Stevenson the Director of Office of the Secretary with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Here are some of the questions I asked in the email I sent…

…Specifically I am looking for the guidelines for
small toys from the years 1985-1988.

The specific toy line I am concerned about is a toy that was released in 1986 and 1987. The toy line was called M.U.S.C.L.E and released in
America by Mattel, although Bandai owned the rights.

If a toy had small parts (e.g., 3/8 of an inch wide and ¼ of an inch
long) would this have been considered unsafe for distribution in 1986 or 1987?

Is there any record of recall with Mattel during these 2 years? If so,
what recalls were listed?”...

And here is the email I received…

A summary of the standards and the regulations are:

http://www.cpsc.gov/...msmallparts.pdf

http://frwebgate.acc...ON=18&TYPE=TEXT

The testing guidelines for small parts are located at:

http://www.cpsc.gov/...fo/testtoys.pdf

http://frwebgate.acc...ON=18&TYPE=TEXT

The standards for small parts in toys have not changed much since the 1980s.

Our searches of recalls did not locate any recall of M.U.S.C.L.E. toys or any Mattel recalls during 1986 or 1987.

The best way to search for recalls is to use the Search button on the website home page, for www.cpsc.gov


I think this is incredibly important information. It completely debunks the theory of recall, at least at a governmental level. If production of these figures had been stopped, then it would have had to have been internally through Mattel and/or Bandai.
  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)

#38 arforbes

arforbes

    I lied, I cheated, I got banned!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6788 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:18 AM

Sweet! Nice job Veers! :blink:

You have narrowed it down to two theories:

Either test or prototype figures,

or

Latin American/Canadian versions of the figures with different sculpts than the American toyline.

You are the man! :(

:D
  • 0
AKA Yapiel, AKA balucard
I was banned! Read ALL about it! http://www.littlerub...showtopic=23333

#1 on the LRG Dishonest Members list!

#39 Tortle

Tortle

    Nathan

  • Legends
  • 4763 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:20 AM

Many recalls have originated from companies who voluntarily recall their products to avoid a legal incident. For example, recently a Disney licensee recalled a Boo Monsters Inc. plush toy last year because it had a button that could be ripped off and swallowed. There was no reported case of a child choking on the button, but the company voluntarily recalled it to avoid an incident.

So, this only proves that the government had nothing to do with a recall. It is very likely that a recall in this case could originate from within Mattel. I'd keep researching the recall possibility, if I were you. Maybe if you ask Mattel directly if they recalled any products from that time period?

But great information, regardless! You're narrowing the scope of possibilities!

-Nathan

Edited by Tortle, 14 July 2003 - 06:22 AM.

  • 0

#40 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:33 AM

I think this is incredibly important information. It completely debunks the theory of recall, at least at a governmental level. If production of these figures had been stopped, then it would have had to have been internally through Mattel and/or Bandai.

I know Nate, that's what I said. Just not as well. :blink:
  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)

#41 Tortle

Tortle

    Nathan

  • Legends
  • 4763 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:52 AM

I know Nate, that's what I said. Just not as well. :(

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to point out that internal recalls happen quite frequently, so the tabloid-esque title of your post wasn't necessarily true. :D I did think my post was somewhat repetitive after the fact, but oh well...

By the way, I think you guys are leaving out a few other possibilities:

* The super-rares could have been part of another MUSCLE series of figures that was cancelled early in production.

* The super-rares might not be MUSCLEs, but either weird Kinkeshi or really elaborate bootlegs.

* The super-rares might not exist at all. The whole issue could be an elaborate conspiracy between Alex, Philly, et al.

I just thought that to really get to the bottom of this, we should consider all possibilities, unless we have direct evidence disproving them... :blink:

-Nathan
  • 0

#42 arforbes

arforbes

    I lied, I cheated, I got banned!

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6788 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 July 2003 - 06:57 AM

* The super-rares might not exist at all. The whole issue could be an elaborate conspiracy between Alex, Philly, et al.

-Nathan

Haha! :blink:

Yeah, you got me...they're fake. Just like Evolution.

:(
  • 0
AKA Yapiel, AKA balucard
I was banned! Read ALL about it! http://www.littlerub...showtopic=23333

#1 on the LRG Dishonest Members list!

#43 pasvagrsvj

pasvagrsvj

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 585 posts

Posted 14 July 2003 - 07:14 AM

It's always been my belief that the muscles and kinkeshi were made in the same factory. If this is true, I think it would be incredibly EASY for some figures to be cast in the wrong plastic. As a matter of fact, it would be hard to imagine a mistake like this NOT happening.

Johnny, do you know of any super-rares in the Japanese circle?
  • 0

#44 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 July 2003 - 07:25 AM

I just thought that to really get to the bottom of this, we should consider all possibilities, unless we have direct evidence disproving them... :blink:

I agree Nate. That’s why I just emailed the person I had previously talked to at Mattel with an updated list of questions. I’ll let everyone know what he says as soon as I receive a reply.

And pasvagrsvj it would appear that they were. Bandai was the actual manufacturer of the toy. I would assume that the same factories were used. However quality control becomes an issue with that idea. The wrong plastic would have had to have been used, nobody catch it, and then get packaged. Sure Bandai may not have wanted to waste the plastic, but Japan is known for their quality standards. I think this would make more sense if they were made in the States.

Edited by General Veers, 14 July 2003 - 07:29 AM.

  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)

#45 pasvagrsvj

pasvagrsvj

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 585 posts

Posted 14 July 2003 - 07:56 AM

I'm gonna go on record as saying that it was such a mistake that gave us our super rares. People always write off this theory because it is the least interesting, but IMO it's the most likely. The Japanese aren't super-human...they DO fxck up occasionally. Look at Pearl Harbor.
  • 0

#46 doc_moore_j

doc_moore_j

    LRG Elite

  • Legends
  • 4369 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grand Junction, Colorado
  • Interests:Muscle men, and Kinnikuman

Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:01 AM

The Japanese aren't super-human...they DO fxck up occasionally. Look at Pearl Harbor.

How could you call Pearl Harbor a eff up? They destroyed us. We were the ones caught totally off gaurd.
  • 0

#47 pasvagrsvj

pasvagrsvj

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 585 posts

Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:07 AM

Retribution, my friend. Retribution that sent a message that is still heard, and still heeded to this day.

I could walk into a bar, find someone 2 feet taller and 100 pounds heavier than me and crack him over the back of the head with a bottle...I may have got the drop on him, and I may seriously fxck him up. But when he regains consciousness, I will have realized that I've made a huge mistake.

No offense, I know your wife's Japanese (right?) I'm just making a point about my super-rare theory.
  • 0

#48 doc_moore_j

doc_moore_j

    LRG Elite

  • Legends
  • 4369 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grand Junction, Colorado
  • Interests:Muscle men, and Kinnikuman

Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:21 AM

No offense taken, and your right about it totally turning on them in the long run.

To keep to the topic, I did not know they were both made in the same factory. If so, why did they not make more muscles from kinkeshi sculpts? Why did we not get everything they got, if they already had the molds just a few steps away. It would not have cost them extra if they already had the mold handy right? The only kinkeshi that didn't make it over that I can understand is Blocken Jr. For his nasty nazi markings.

Out of all of these theories stated, I would have to go with the latin America and Canadian ones. Not so sure about the choking issues only because I had some heman dolls back then and they had small weapons and stuff.
  • 0

#49 General Veers

General Veers

    LRG Lifer

  • Legends
  • 11633 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:34 AM

PLEASE keep this on topic.

I wasn’t saying they were definitely made in the same factory. However it wouldn’t be too far fetched to think that Bandai would use the same facilities.

As for my latest contact with Mattel I’m quite disappointed. I’m trying to find a new contact person. When I talk to the people at Mattel they keep trying to give me to the VP of International Marketing. The fact that I’m looking to talk to someone else is throwing them for a loop. I’m waiting for a phone call from them right now.

As for the last emails I received here is what I was told.

There's nobody around from those days who can answer any of these
questions, I'm afraid.

Sorry, as I stated before, there are no surviving records.


This worries me. What kind of company are they running if they don’t have any records? I’m going to keep hounding them anyway.

Do you guys have any suggestions for what department I need to talk to? I was thinking that R&D might have some records, made the head of manufacturing?
  • 0

Other University of M.U.S.C.L.E. Links:
Instagram (uofmuscle); Twitter (uofmuscle); Facebook (UofMuscle.com); and YouTube (UofMUSCLE)

#50 THEGODBEAST

THEGODBEAST

    Y/S*N*T

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5376 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:45 AM

Like I said earlier it has to be #1 theory or #2 theory. I just don't buy the choking hazard and I for sure don't buy the f*ck up theory. I also don't think the #1 theory is likely due to the DM showing up in a common auction plain as day.

I am putting all my money on the #2 theory of Canadian (I really don't think Latin America). Latin American toys sometimes obviously lack quality and/or official licenses. The super rares I have seen (photos on Nate's site) look high quality.

As far as customs, bootlegs, or scams, I don't buy that either. I am skilled and I cannot (as of yet) crack the muscle fleshie color code. Also as far as voluntary recalls, back in the 80's that is unlikely. The big law suits started happening way after Muscles. Back then, not many companies would voluntarily pull something especially if they didn't pull meat, peanut guy, etc... All they would do is label the package with a choking warning. That is the standard. They don't pull it, they label it and put an age on it!

I say everyone keep their eyes peeled on where these SR come from. Ebay auctions, watch the area of the US or foreign country. If anyone finds them in collections or at flea markets, swap meets, garage sales, thrift stores, etc... keep track of where that person is located.

THEGODBEAST
  • 0






Copyright © 2019 LittleRubberGuys.com