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#51 pasvagrsvj

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:47 AM

I'd really like to find out if they WERE made in the same factory...that would answer a few questions.

Veers, I have a Pez collecting book by David Welch. David was able to track down and interview (in person, no less) many, many employees and families of deceased employees of the Pez (US) company from as far back as the late 50's. In some cases, he was able to score old collections! I'd say Mattel just doesn't give a fxck about helping you/us out.
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#52 doc_moore_j

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:48 AM

Archives maybe? I know we only keep most medical documents for three years (Max). So it does not surprize me that they can not dig up anything. I am surprized however that nobody that works there now, worked there then, or even know someone that did. You'd think they could get a litle more info. I'd love to see some sort of plans on what they were producing and what they had planned on doing with the muscle line before it got cancelled. Aside from knowing it is in Japan, do you guys know where the bandai corp is located. Maybe I can stop by my next time over there and see if I can get some good inside gouge. I am trying to plan a trip to Japan in Dec or Jan.

I think the truth is out there, but we may never find it.
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#53 THEGODBEAST

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:50 AM

I would have to agree.

Mattel doesn't give a f*ck! They have no reason to, they aren't licensing the UM, so they don't care! It is all about $$$ and profit!

Not to mention Mattel has their heads so far up their a$$es right now with the He-man toys that they don't have time to worry about the old toy lines that they aren't making money off of right now.

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#54 pasvagrsvj

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:53 AM

Marty, where do you find flaw with the fxck-up theory?
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#55 THEGODBEAST

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 09:07 AM

Most of these companies have other plastics companies make the actual figures. Is anyone sure that Bandai actually owned the plastics company where they were made?

I know this, because a friend of mine has an uncle that owned a plastics company in the 80's that made the yellow zonkers figures!!! He said they made all kinds of toys for toy companies.

Plus, it is highly unlikely that they ever had them mixed up. Usually plastics companies have the equipment set to make the specific figures in a specific area. So by saying maybe a Kinnikuman mold slipped over to the US G1 flesh plastic area and so on, is pretty far fetched to me. No offense.

I can however buy into the tail ender theory. That maybe the SHA and BHS were new characters being slowly introduced into the dying flesh packs before the colored ones came, however, that too has flaws. Why then have we never seen colored Super Rares?

I strongly think that they were tail enders introduced into foreign packaging and released just outside the USA.

Like Secret Wars Iceman, Constrictor, and Electro (MATTEL). Like SW Yak Face (KENNER). Like Masters of the Universe Megator and Titus (MATTEL). Like Thundercats Stinger and Driller (LJN). Etc..............

To me that is the most likely senerio.

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#56 Rokk

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 11:05 AM

Aside from knowing it is in Japan, do you guys know where the bandai corp is located. Maybe I can stop by my next time over there and see if I can get some good inside gouge. I am trying to plan a trip to Japan in Dec or Jan.

I think the truth is out there, but we may never find it.

Head Office 2-5-4 Komagata, Taito-ku, Tokyo, 111-8081 Japan

Osaka Branch 4-12-3 Toyosaki, Kita-ku, Osaka city, 531-0072 Japan
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#57 General Veers

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 11:09 AM

Head Office 2-5-4 Komagata, Taito-ku, Tokyo, 111-8081 Japan

That's the office I got my response from.
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#58 Ridureyu

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 11:46 AM

The Japanese aren't super-human...they DO fxck up occasionally.  Look at Pearl Harbor.

How could you call Pearl Harbor a eff up? They destroyed us. We were the ones caught totally off gaurd.

They missed their target- the aircraft carriers- and thus screwed themse;ves over at Pearl Harbor.
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#59 General Veers

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 11:49 AM

C'mon, stay on topic.
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#60 General Veers

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 05:46 AM

I have some questions for everybody.

What 4-pack back came first, the blank back or the poster offer?
I thought it was the blank back.

What back does the SC in the 4-pack have?

I think this will help us figure out if the other SR’s were made at the beginning or end of the line.
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#61 arforbes

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 09:28 AM

I am pretty sure the poster offer came first, and that was on the back of the flesh 4-Packs only. I may be mistaken because it may have been on the back of the flesh/colored 4-Packs too, but I'm not sure. Perhaps the offer still existed on the back of the mixed 4-Packs for the mixed poster. That would make sense. I am pretty sure that the Satancross 4-Packs has the poster offer on the back too, because it is an all flesh 4-Pack. So the only 4-Pack without the offer would be the all colored one. I think.

Is this correct?

B)
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#62 General Veers

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:01 AM

I’m not sure. We need to figure out which back came first.

I also have continued to play phone tag with Mattel.

I also got some more bad news. Last night, and through some emails today, I have been getting input about manufacturing records, and records in general. Several people told me that their companies only keep records for 5-7 years. Additionally the quality certification program ISO 9000 only suggests that records are kept for 7 years.

This is very bad news. It makes the window of hope even smaller. I know that my company keeps records for a long time, but that’s because we are research based. I fear that Mattel would not keep records that long, especially for a toy that only ran 2 years in their catalog and that they didn’t manufacture. In addition this is around the time that Mattel ran into some money issues by spreading themselves too thin with their products. Once Mattel decided to concentrate on their “core” brands they probably dumped many of their records for smaller, less successful toys.

I tried to tell myself that this might not be the case, but I could think of a example of a company reviving a less than successful toy, over 15 years later. I thought Hasbro might be an example with the Aetha Prime and the Expanded Universe figure, but even that was only about 10 years AND was part of one of the most successful toy lines ever.

I fear that there won’t be any answers found in Mattel’s records. Don’t worry, I’ve still got a few ideas. B)
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#63 jkaris

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:07 AM

4-Packs. The poster offer ended 12/31/1986 with all entries postmarked by 1/15/1987

I have:
flesh with the offer
flesh without the offer
transitional (2 flesh-2 colors) with the offer
colored without the offer

The cards are all identical, except for the poster blurb.
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#64 Adamantiumwulf

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:10 AM

If I remember correctly the flesh 4 packs come with and without the promotion on the back.

I will look when I get home tonight. I have some flesh, flesh/color, color 4 packs.
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#65 General Veers

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:18 AM

4-Packs. The poster offer ended 12/31/1986 with all entries postmarked by 1/15/1987

I have:
flesh with the offer
flesh without the offer
transitional (2 flesh-2 colors) with the offer
colored without the offer

The cards are all identical, except for the poster blurb.

This makes me think that the blank cards would have been the second then. From what Johnny says it sounds like the poster offer was made initially, and then at the end of the first year the offer was ended.

Does that sound right?

So which back did the SC have?
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#66 doc_moore_j

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 11:48 AM

So which back did the SC have?

I will look at mine tonight. I also have a dozen or so four packs varying in color, so I will give you the run down as soon as I can this evening.
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#67 THEGODBEAST

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 12:43 PM

This is all smellin' like tail-enders to me! Especially if Doc's SC is on a blank back! But, even if his SC is on a poster offer back, that doesn't mean that the SC wasn't the first tail-ender to pack out (that would explain why we see so many of him) and then the BHS and SHA were last (explainning their rarity).
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Edited by THEGODBEAST, 15 July 2003 - 01:06 PM.

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#68 Tortle

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 12:58 PM

I always just assumed that the poster was offered after the line had been available for some time. So, I thought that the all-pink 4-packs with the poster offer were actually the ones released first. I'm not really basing this on anything, but it seemed to make the most sense to me cronologically, based on the expiration dates:

* All-pink sans poster (Start of the line: 1986)
* All-pink with poster (End of 1986)
* Mixed pink and colored with poster (Beginning of 1987)
* Colored sans poster (Finish of the line: 1987)

Were the expiration dates of the poster offer different on the mixed packs? If not, then the mixed w/ poster would have to be released right after the all-pink w/ poster, and the all-pink sans poster would be the first assortment, with the colored packs last...

Therefore, all the super-rares and Satan Cross would have been discontinued within the first year (since they were pink and only colored MUSCLEs were offered towards the end), and logically before the poster else they would have been included on it.

Assuming they were part of the American line, of course. -_-

-Nathan

EDIT: I just checked one of my mixed packs, and the date is the same, so the 4-pack "timeline" above makes sense.

Edited by Tortle, 15 July 2003 - 02:11 PM.

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#69 ToyMan

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:40 PM

i have a friend who will be going to south america in a little while, and he's promised that he's going to snag me a bunch of either bootleg, or leftover m.u.s.c.l.e. figures. he's described literal "toy warehouses" where he's seen "tons" of them. if any of the figures he brings back, bootleg or not, are "super-rare" sculpts, this might help to support the "south america" theory.

also, having had lived in new hampshire for 21 years, i can tell you that many products purchased that close to the border, even while living in the states is actually an imported "product of canada".
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#70 THEGODBEAST

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:46 PM

Yup that is what I thought! I have heard the same thing about toys along the boarder between Canada and the US being imports and as far as your buddy going to S. America, tell him to bring back a Glasslite Star Wars Droids Vlix for me and one for Veers, then tell him to bring back some Camoflauge Kobra Kahns!
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#71 ToyMan

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 07:56 PM

hey, get your own guatemalan friend! -_-
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#72 phillymadison

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 08:09 PM

wow Im jumping into this topic pretty late so sorry if Im talking about a few older items here

first off My sealed Satans cross four pack has the poster offer and its only in english i think the poster offer was first in the 4 packs

DM's cane isnt very sharp but it is extremelly fragile

Yes Nathan this is a big ploy between me and Alex to turn the Muscle world upside down lol

Also maybe they didnt make alot of the super rares because they didnt want to have any muscles with accessiores like make each one strickly one figure nothing else but they still made a few to purpose the idea
when the idea was turn down instead of throwing out the figures they put them out in some four pack/or 10 packs waste not want not

or

maybe SC,SHA,BHS and DM where prototypes for a special 4 pack like the "best of the best" that would have been sold for more and in a diffrent 4 pack packages.
they were all set to go and strated making making SC's when they decided not to do it so they inserted the remaining SC's in some 4 packs or 10 packs and did the same with the other prototypes

just a theory

and did anyone ever notice that colored MUSCLE auctions from europe always seem to have colored muscles that (to me) seem a little hard to get?
I mean nothing new like just when i see a color lot on ebay from America i only see a few guys I need
but when I see a auction from europe it has lots of colored muscles i need

maybe its just a coincidence i dont know
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#73 arforbes

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 09:46 PM

I think you're right about the colored M.U.S.C.L.E.s from overseas Phil, they are different than the ones from here, in color that is. There are more figures that are less common. I've noticed that too.

Toyman, that's awesome! If your friend is right, you need to get as many as you can! I have dreams of finding warehouses full of M.U.S.C.L.E.s haha! :notme: If I only knew where they were in other countries, I would be there the next day. Get as much as you can and then let us know what you find.

;)
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#74 THEGODBEAST

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Posted 15 July 2003 - 09:51 PM

***Not being racist***

You said, "Get your own guatemalan friend."



I have several working in my plastics studio (sweat shop) pumpin' out customs!!!

No health insurance, no breaks, $2.00 per hour, and no safety regulations!

Just kiddin'!

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my attempt at humor!

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#75 Tortle

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 05:50 AM

first off My sealed Satans cross four pack has the poster offer and its only in english i think the poster offer was first in the 4 packs

If the 4-packs with offer came out first, then the poster offer would be available, then unavailable, then available again (multi-colored packs)... all with the same deadline. It's possible, but very strange.

That's interesting that SC has the poster offer, though! I always thought that he was discontinued before the poster.

DM's cane isnt very sharp but it is extremelly fragile

If it's fragile, then it could break off easily and pose a choking hazard... hm... Then again, DM might have been discontinued simply because he broke too easily.

So how fragile is the cane? Try breaking it off so we can see, Philly! :p

I think the only way to really tell if the super-rares are choking hazards is for somebody to try to swallow SHA's head or BHS's chest. Alex, since you have both, I think you're elected! If you survive, then they obviously aren't choking risks!

maybe SC,SHA,BHS and DM where prototypes for a special 4 pack like the "best of the best" that would have been sold for more and in a diffrent 4 pack packages.


Hm... that's interesting. Maybe they were deluxe figures since they had other pieces? That wouldn't really explain DM... but maybe he was discontinued for an entirely different reason than the other super-rares.

As for the "foreign figures" theory, I wonder if there's any way to check out the Latin American MUSCLE line. Is there a Latin American Ebay site or something that we could try looking into?

-Nathan
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