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#51 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

customs make it possible for poor, lower middle class chimps like myself able to afford items they really want, but wouldnt be able to afford otherwise. like marrying a funny looking girl with a great body, i can live with that.


That's great. And I have no problem with that because I understand your desire to not spend that kind of money on toys. So if you buy a custom instead of the real deal, are you against communities asking customizers to include a little mark (like their initials) on the custom so we can distinguish the reproduction from the real thing?

That's all this topic is really about.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 08:12 PM.

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#52 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

Oh, Sweet freakin' Jesus. This is precisely why I got out of collecting several years back and kept only the one thing that had any sentimental value to me: my 1-76 set.

As I continue to sell items from my collections or things I still buy for fun for resale, I will accept certain items such as low numbered Laser Beasts in trade because it's enjoyable. Or if it's convenient, I will accept silver or gold as payment to save me the trouble of buying my certain amount of metals every month. I enjoy selling toys, and that's why I still do it.

We as a community have some pretty major psychological issues if we're going to measure our worth by the size of our collections. Many of us on this forum could own any toy from any series or an entire series in any condition if we actually wanted to spend our money that way. But for many of us toy collecting is just not that important in our big list of priorities in life. For me, because I don't even actively collect, toy collecting as a priority is even lower than most. Having said that, I really do enjoy reselling toys, and that's why I still frequent toy collecting communities.


Exactly you don't actively collect, therefore what makes you think your opinion on toy collecting / reproduction is of any value ?

Reselling toys ?
Your the worst reseller I have ever met.

We have resellers here on the board that have built nice collections and use the hobby as a way of supporting their Hobby.

You on the other hand are a joke.

So your not a collector, your not a reseller, what does that make you ?

A forum Troll.
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#53 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

Exactly you don't actively collect, therefore what makes you think your opinion on toy collecting / reproduction is of any value ?

Reselling toys ?
Your the worst reseller I have ever met.

We have resellers here on the board that have built nice collections and use the hobby as a way of supporting their Hobby.

You on the other hand are a joke.

So your not a collector, your not a reseller, what does that make you ?


A guy who knows the difference between you're and your!

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 21 October 2012 - 08:16 PM.

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#54 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

A guy who knows the difference between you're and your!


Great here is a forum where your opinion may count
http://able2know.org/forum/spelling/
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#55 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:19 PM

Great here is a forum where your opinion may count
http://able2know.org/forum/spelling/



Gold star to Toxoviper for using the correct "your" in the quoted post. Bravo!
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#56 salazar4id

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

Amen... Cassel87
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#57 FANtomCore

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:25 PM

Let's not panic, the seller hasn't sold that many LB repro gun sets...yet.

There is still the possibility the seller's resources for continually casting these sets is limited.

I still think these sets are being done by a single caster and not factory made.

The seller did only make a quantity of 3 sets available in his Buy It Now posting instead of 10.

For all we know his latest Buy It Now posting of these sets could very well be his last.

But if not... well what can you do except get in on it I guess. Can't beat 'em, join em :|

I have a complete collection and to be honest I'm not really bothered by this turn of events, simply because I never intended to re-sell my collection ever.

So whatever happens, happens.
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#58 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:26 PM

Can those who support customs of hard to find figures and accessories please just answer this question:

Are you against an artist's mark (such as their initials or a little symbol) on the item that would distinguish the custom from the original?

If you are against an artist's mark, why?
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#59 FANtomCore

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

Can those who support customs of hard to find figures and accessories please just answer this question:

Are you against an artist's mark (such as their initials or a little symbol) on the item that would distinguish the custom from the original?

If you are against an artist's mark, why?


I'm not against artist markers. But making copies doesn't seem like something someone would like to take artist credit for.
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#60 Toxoviper

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

Let's not panic, the seller hasn't sold that many LB repro gun sets...yet.

There is still the possibility the seller's resources for continually casting these sets is limited.

I still think these sets are being done by a single caster and not factory made.

The seller did only make a quantity of 3 sets available in his Buy It Now posting instead of 10.

For all we know his latest Buy It Now posting of these sets could very well be his last.

But if not... well what can you do except get in on it I guess. Can't beat 'em, join em :|

I have a complete collection and to be honest I'm not really bothered by this turn of events, simply because I never intended to re-sell my collection ever.

So whatever happens, happens.


I am in the same boat.
Not bothered and never intended to re-sell my collection.

It was important enough to be to pay the prices in the first place.
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#61 cassel87

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

i think an artist marking his customs is a great idea. if im buying a custom, i know its fake and a marking proving its fake doesnt make a difference. i understand where people are coming from. i would be pissed as hell if i bought an item off ebay thinking it was real and found out its fake, however if the fake is exact, i probably will never know. ignorance is bliss in my world. soooo... i will play the role of italy, and take both sides. i would buy the customs for my personal collection though. never sell them as real. a laser beast going into battle without a laser, real or fake, will get slaughterd before the battle begins.
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#62 Beastformers

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:23 AM

Calm down a little guys!!!!

I'm happy I got this reply on the message I've sent out to the seller yesterday;

Thanks very much, ginl. I'm just a poor mountain teacher,I sell these items for a friend in Beijing, not myself. My friends and I will respect your opinion. We will make some changes in colors for buyers to distinguish. If necessary, will make some small mark on it.
We hope to become friends with you and other collectors. Thanks again 4 ur valuable advice. Wish to communicate often with you and exchange ideas. This is a good and happy thing for me.
In future, we will make some products, if you like, I'll send some ones to you as gifts, you can leave your contact informationhim,if u like, in order to communicate each other


I told him exactly your point Toxo that there is a different type of buyers for the Repro's than for the originals so there's no way he's to worry about selling less or for lower prices. Think it might even become more because now the danger is gone of mixing up original ones with his pieces when another color or mark is added. I would seriously panic when I'd get a high end laser from him that in the end somehow might be mistaken or get mixed up with my original piece just because it looks to good. Now I know there might be another color or a clear mark added to them I can always tell the difference.

Let's hope this will work out as he mentioned.
In a reply I asked him if his friend in Beijing is making these molds himself or if he might be working with the original Takara molds from back in the days based on the quality of the repo's.

These topics are important to discuss in my opinion as they are an issue for all of us whether your for it or against it but there is no need to start throwing mud around because that wont bring us anywhere.
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#63 lhssenior

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:23 PM

I think the problem here is that, as with all instances of bootlegging/piracy, there are people that will be negatively impacted financially and there will be people that benefit, whether they want to admit it or not, at those people's expense.

By someone not having a particular (in this case) toy, there is no actual detriment to them. Do I wish everyone could have everything they ever wanted for free, sure why not, but the world does not work that way. Other than being a little butthurt about it, there's no real harm done by not having that item. I'm in the same boat with the blue drill, really really want one, but I don't have one and I am suffering no negative consequences because of it other than being a little butthurt.

Now on the opposite side of the coin, are the people that ARE effected negatively by the bootlegging. As I've been on this board a long time, I've seen many a collector have to sell their collections due to unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances: car getting totaled, illness of themselves or a loved one, having a kid...ok I guess that last one you can probably see coming. My point is that a lot of collectors put their money into toys because they are such a safe investment. Would I rather keep my money in a volatile financial market, a bank with little to no return, or toys? Easy question! Yes the toy market fluctuates up or down a little bit, but baring some game changer like this guy coming along and (still assuming he will be) flooding the market with cheap bootlegs, toys have been considered a relatively safe investment. I'm one of those people, I love collecting toys and it's a win-win for me as I know if I ever encounter a terrible life event, I should be able to pull at least 75% or so of what I spent out of my collection fairly quickly. As much as I love toys I'm also a practical person who has made some of the decisions I have in regards to collecting assuming that I would only be working with traditional market forces and not some guy making a ton of forgeries. When I started collecting, did I spend $75 on some laser beast guns because I thought they were a $75 toy? Of course not, I thought they were cool and knew that if I absolutely had to part with them for some reason I could at least get $60 back out of it worst case so it was really a $15 investment, not a $75 one. If these repros become commonly available, will the same number of buyers looking to buy an original at full price as exist today? Simple supply and demand say no as many buyers in the market today likely do not care if it is original or not as can be seen by how quickly the bootleg sets sold. Therefore less buyers in the market equals a decrease in price. Anyone with a high school diploma or equivalent should be able to understand the logic in that.

To me, there is a sense of security in spending money on collectable toys so if God forbid I have an accident and get stuck with 10's of thousands of dollars that my insurance won't cover for one reason or another, my toys are my safety net. That was a part of my decision making process when I have bought some of the large ticket items I have and it sucks to now have uncertainty associated with part of my financial planning for the future just so some people can fill in holes in their collections. Am I happy for those people yes, do I think their happiness is worth someone being unable to cover a large unplanned financial hardship they would have otherwise been able to, of course not.

It's too bad when these situations come up where it only takes a small handful of folks to take opportunity away from people who may actually need and rely on it at some point, and the people benefiting don't even pause to take a second thought about the people they could be hurting by enabling the bootlegger/pirates, just "what's in it for me". Me personally, other than one display case of favorites, I'm planning to sell off my whole collection someday 20 years or so down the line assuming the market holds up til then to help put a our kid once we have him/her through college, so yea, that's my exit strategy and it's actually something I've planned for about a decade baring no major financial setbacks between now and then, so I believe I have a completely valid reason to be pissed about bootlegs watering down the hobby. To me it is both a hobby which I love and the most fun way to financially plan for the future.

I'm not going to get all self righteous and say I know what everyone's motives are for wanting these bootlegs to be made or not, just sharing my example using basic economics 101 on how these getting made in large scale will have a tangible negative effect on a fellow boardie and collector. If anyone still feels their need to complete holes in their collection by welcoming these into the market at the expense of me and others who may have similar stories takes precedence, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to me a tangible negative impact outweighs being a little butthurt about not having a toy :cry:
-Barry
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#64 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

Great post and good reasoning about the harm bootlegs cause! Unfortunately I think it might be far too articulate for certain proponents of knockoffs to understand. Great effort nonetheless. I agree with much of your post.

I think the problem here is that, as with all instances of bootlegging/piracy, there are people that will be negatively impacted financially and there will be people that benefit, whether they want to admit it or not, at those people's expense.

By someone not having a particular (in this case) toy, there is no actual detriment to them. Do I wish everyone could have everything they ever wanted for free, sure why not, but the world does not work that way. Other than being a little butthurt about it, there's no real harm done by not having that item. I'm in the same boat with the blue drill, really really want one, but I don't have one and I am suffering no negative consequences because of it other than being a little butthurt.

Now on the opposite side of the coin, are the people that ARE effected negatively by the bootlegging. As I've been on this board a long time, I've seen many a collector have to sell their collections due to unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances: car getting totaled, illness of themselves or a loved one, having a kid...ok I guess that last one you can probably see coming. My point is that a lot of collectors put their money into toys because they are such a safe investment. Would I rather keep my money in a volatile financial market, a bank with little to no return, or toys? Easy question! Yes the toy market fluctuates up or down a little bit, but baring some game changer like this guy coming along and (still assuming he will be) flooding the market with cheap bootlegs, toys have been considered a relatively safe investment. I'm one of those people, I love collecting toys and it's a win-win for me as I know if I ever encounter a terrible life event, I should be able to pull at least 75% or so of what I spent out of my collection fairly quickly. As much as I love toys I'm also a practical person who has made some of the decisions I have in regards to collecting assuming that I would only be working with traditional market forces and not some guy making a ton of forgeries. When I started collecting, did I spend $75 on some laser beast guns because I thought they were a $75 toy? Of course not, I thought they were cool and knew that if I absolutely had to part with them for some reason I could at least get $60 back out of it worst case so it was really a $15 investment, not a $75 one. If these repros become commonly available, will the same number of buyers looking to buy an original at full price as exist today? Simple supply and demand say no as many buyers in the market today likely do not care if it is original or not as can be seen by how quickly the bootleg sets sold. Therefore less buyers in the market equals a decrease in price. Anyone with a high school diploma or equivalent should be able to understand the logic in that.

To me, there is a sense of security in spending money on collectable toys so if God forbid I have an accident and get stuck with 10's of thousands of dollars that my insurance won't cover for one reason or another, my toys are my safety net. That was a part of my decision making process when I have bought some of the large ticket items I have and it sucks to now have uncertainty associated with part of my financial planning for the future just so some people can fill in holes in their collections. Am I happy for those people yes, do I think their happiness is worth someone being unable to cover a large unplanned financial hardship they would have otherwise been able to, of course not.

It's too bad when these situations come up where it only takes a small handful of folks to take opportunity away from people who may actually need and rely on it at some point, and the people benefiting don't even pause to take a second thought about the people they could be hurting by enabling the bootlegger/pirates, just "what's in it for me". Me personally, other than one display case of favorites, I'm planning to sell off my whole collection someday 20 years or so down the line assuming the market holds up til then to help put a our kid once we have him/her through college, so yea, that's my exit strategy and it's actually something I've planned for about a decade baring no major financial setbacks between now and then, so I believe I have a completely valid reason to be pissed about bootlegs watering down the hobby. To me it is both a hobby which I love and the most fun way to financially plan for the future.

I'm not going to get all self righteous and say I know what everyone's motives are for wanting these bootlegs to be made or not, just sharing my example using basic economics 101 on how these getting made in large scale will have a tangible negative effect on a fellow boardie and collector. If anyone still feels their need to complete holes in their collection by welcoming these into the market at the expense of me and others who may have similar stories takes precedence, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to me a tangible negative impact outweighs being a little butthurt about not having a toy :cry:
-Barry


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#65 saleen123456

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

like marrying a funny looking girl with a great body, i can live with that.


Hehe this made me laugh out loud ;)
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#66 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

edit

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 22 October 2012 - 03:50 PM.

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#67 PlasticSoul

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

I don't collect high numbered Lasers because of the knockoffs that first entered the market around 2005 when people like TheGodbeast starting making customs of them that were difficult to distinguish from the real thing. I decided at that point that there was no reason for me to collect something that was difficult to verify as real or not.


Question Cuttlefish, did his knockoffs have any real effect on the market? I am not a serious collector by any stretch of the imagination but i've never heard anyone say that those customs hurt the market. I could see why someone would think that at the time but did it actually matter in the end?
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#68 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

Question Cuttlefish, did his knockoffs have any real effect on the market? I am not a serious collector by any stretch of the imagination but i've never heard anyone say that those customs hurt the market. I could see why someone would think that at the time but did it actually matter in the end?


I'm not sure. When he started making them I had a couple high numbered Laser Beasts without weapons. At the time I was trying to trade for those weapons and start a collection, but then I saw this guy I had never heard making weapons for high numbered Laser Beasts. That discouraged me from collecting them at all, and within the year I had sold mine on ebay.

I'm pretty sure we know now that all customs TGB made then and over the years (of weapons, of figures, of shields, etc.) are in some way distinguishable from the real thing. However, at the time, seeing those customs made it occur to me for the first time that there was absolutely nothing stopping OTHER unscrupulous people from churning out their own replicas of the real thing without ANY distinguishable figures or change in plastic. So that's why I made a conscious decision to not collect high numbered Laser Beasts and to get rid of my two high numbered figures.

The price of Laser Beasts overall is way up from 7.5 years ago, but that's for other reasons. 1. inflation 2. more collectors eating up the supply of figures and therefore increasing the price of them and 3. a bigger market is now available for the toys, which makes even the novice ebay or Yahoo Japan seller ask more for their figures

However, if the market were to be flooded with knock off shields, Lasers, and even figures, that would dramatically decrease the price. As of now, the market has never been flooded. Only a few customs have entered the market. And only a few will have no dramatic effect. Plus, as I said earlier, I am almost positive all of TGB's customs are in someway distinguishable from the real thing, so they would not impact the market. But the important thing is that OTHER people's ripoffs that are indistinguishable from the real thing COULD affect the market.

Edited by ComradeCuttlefish, 22 October 2012 - 04:42 PM.

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#69 Toxoviper

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

I think the problem here is that, as with all instances of bootlegging/piracy, there are people that will be negatively impacted financially and there will be people that benefit, whether they want to admit it or not, at those people's expense.

By someone not having a particular (in this case) toy, there is no actual detriment to them. Do I wish everyone could have everything they ever wanted for free, sure why not, but the world does not work that way. Other than being a little butthurt about it, there's no real harm done by not having that item. I'm in the same boat with the blue drill, really really want one, but I don't have one and I am suffering no negative consequences because of it other than being a little butthurt.

Now on the opposite side of the coin, are the people that ARE effected negatively by the bootlegging. As I've been on this board a long time, I've seen many a collector have to sell their collections due to unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances: car getting totaled, illness of themselves or a loved one, having a kid...ok I guess that last one you can probably see coming. My point is that a lot of collectors put their money into toys because they are such a safe investment. Would I rather keep my money in a volatile financial market, a bank with little to no return, or toys? Easy question! Yes the toy market fluctuates up or down a little bit, but baring some game changer like this guy coming along and (still assuming he will be) flooding the market with cheap bootlegs, toys have been considered a relatively safe investment. I'm one of those people, I love collecting toys and it's a win-win for me as I know if I ever encounter a terrible life event, I should be able to pull at least 75% or so of what I spent out of my collection fairly quickly. As much as I love toys I'm also a practical person who has made some of the decisions I have in regards to collecting assuming that I would only be working with traditional market forces and not some guy making a ton of forgeries. When I started collecting, did I spend $75 on some laser beast guns because I thought they were a $75 toy? Of course not, I thought they were cool and knew that if I absolutely had to part with them for some reason I could at least get $60 back out of it worst case so it was really a $15 investment, not a $75 one. If these repros become commonly available, will the same number of buyers looking to buy an original at full price as exist today? Simple supply and demand say no as many buyers in the market today likely do not care if it is original or not as can be seen by how quickly the bootleg sets sold. Therefore less buyers in the market equals a decrease in price. Anyone with a high school diploma or equivalent should be able to understand the logic in that.

To me, there is a sense of security in spending money on collectable toys so if God forbid I have an accident and get stuck with 10's of thousands of dollars that my insurance won't cover for one reason or another, my toys are my safety net. That was a part of my decision making process when I have bought some of the large ticket items I have and it sucks to now have uncertainty associated with part of my financial planning for the future just so some people can fill in holes in their collections. Am I happy for those people yes, do I think their happiness is worth someone being unable to cover a large unplanned financial hardship they would have otherwise been able to, of course not.

It's too bad when these situations come up where it only takes a small handful of folks to take opportunity away from people who may actually need and rely on it at some point, and the people benefiting don't even pause to take a second thought about the people they could be hurting by enabling the bootlegger/pirates, just "what's in it for me". Me personally, other than one display case of favorites, I'm planning to sell off my whole collection someday 20 years or so down the line assuming the market holds up til then to help put a our kid once we have him/her through college, so yea, that's my exit strategy and it's actually something I've planned for about a decade baring no major financial setbacks between now and then, so I believe I have a completely valid reason to be pissed about bootlegs watering down the hobby. To me it is both a hobby which I love and the most fun way to financially plan for the future.

I'm not going to get all self righteous and say I know what everyone's motives are for wanting these bootlegs to be made or not, just sharing my example using basic economics 101 on how these getting made in large scale will have a tangible negative effect on a fellow boardie and collector. If anyone still feels their need to complete holes in their collection by welcoming these into the market at the expense of me and others who may have similar stories takes precedence, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to me a tangible negative impact outweighs being a little butthurt about not having a toy :cry:
-Barry


So you have a problem with Hasbro/Takara re-releasing Transformers for collectors ?

Why is the value of your collection more important then many other collectors being able to enjoy these toys ?

Ever think you should treat collecting as a hobby and not a financial plan ?

If you paid a certain price for a item why do you feel everyone else should also have too ?
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#70 Toxoviper

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:46 PM

Question Cuttlefish, did his knockoffs have any real effect on the market? I am not a serious collector by any stretch of the imagination but i've never heard anyone say that those customs hurt the market. I could see why someone would think that at the time but did it actually matter in the end?


The customs have only added to the market.

Laser Beasts $150-$250
Original Euro Shields are $300-$500
Chargers $100-$150
SD Beastformers $30-$40

Eric's custom Gumballs will not affect the value of the originals.

TGB custom pieces even command premiums themselves.
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#71 Toxoviper

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:58 PM

Battle Beasts come from the Takara Beastformers line that is a Transformers spin off.

To give everyone that doesn't know here is what the current KO situation looks like for Transformers
http://chimungmung.c...products_id=830

They also stock official G1 Re-releases.

The guy who runs the site is a great seller and I high recommend him.

The Transformers Collectors market is alive and well.
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#72 Toxoviper

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:05 PM

Here is a good example

G.I.Joe Heavy metal Mic piece.
It has been knocked off countless times including in black and original color for $10 and $1 respectively
http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557
http://www.ebay.com/...=item3cc95f7b82

But the original still commands a high $130+ premium
http://www.ebay.com/...=item2ec04fff29
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#73 jkaris

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

I think the problem here is that, as with all instances of bootlegging/piracy, there are people that will be negatively impacted financially and there will be people that benefit, whether they want to admit it or not, at those people's expense.

I have to disagree. In the case of bootlegs entering the market. One collector being able to get those bootlegs for a cheaper amount is not tied at all to the person who loses money on the value of the originals. The only commonality (and the cause of both) is that the bootlegs are being made by a 3rd party.
You can't say because Joe collector bought some cheap knock offs that his purchase has caused Jane collector's original value to drop. The cause of both instances is someone bootlegging the items. Trying to assign responsibility or to correlate the two is an incorrect assumption.
One action (bootlegging) causing both results. But neither result is directly tied or attributed to each other. The bootlegs are already made even if no one ever buys any. And in this instance, I am going to take a gander and say that he has at minimum 200 sets of these due to them being injection molded. Although I will agree that the more people who buy the bootlegs will have an effect on how many more are produced. But the blame lies entirely on the bootlegger, not on the collector.
Although truth be told, even if the correlation were correct, it's not Collector A's responsibility to worry about the value of Collector B's toys.

My point is that a lot of collectors put their money into toys because they are such a safe investment. Would I rather keep my money in a volatile financial market, a bank with little to no return, or toys? Easy question!

Again, I have to disagree. Using toys as any type of "safe" long term investment is really not a good idea. You'd have a much better time buying precious metals or stock in a solid company. You'd also have an easier time liquidating it. Some lines will hold their value for a while, but some are very flash in the pan. Toy prices are almost completely driven by demand. In 10 years, do you honestly think that there will more demand for Laser Beasts than there is now? The ones driving up the demand are guys our age. When we are nearing 50, do you think the demand will still be there? Nah.
Short term, you are correct. Especially if you can get stuff at retail prices or less (i.e. Transformers). But long term, you are better off buying gold and silver.
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#74 lhssenior

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

So you have a problem with Hasbro/Takara re-releasing Transformers for collectors ?

Why is the value of your collection more important then many other collectors being able to enjoy these toys ?

Ever think you should treat collecting as a hobby and not a financial plan ?

If you paid a certain price for a item why do you feel everyone else should also have too ?


I'm not much of a Transformers collector so I can't speak intelligently about the re-releases. Are there any discernible differences between the originals and the re-releases? If so, I have no problem with them, much like I have no problem with Marty's work. My issues stems from the uncertainty that develops when someone can not tell whether something they are buying is legitimate or a reproduction. There are plenty of scumbags in this world where given the chance would rip someone off without thinking twice about it. I tend to side with the folks that do not want to enable these predators to behave the way they do. By default people that think making identical copies of collectable items (not customs), whether it be autographs, purses, watches or toys is good for the market have a lot of these slimeballs that agree with them. If the Takara re-releases are identical to the original release, it is clearly a financial decision meant to capitalize on the value the items have earned on the secondary market and if you think they are doing it for the collectors and not for themselves then I would question your knowledge of business. One prime example is the cost of the Fort Max re-release (I am aware of this just because he and Devastator are the two Transformers I do follow and try to stay well informed about) costing about 3 times that of the original. Inflation has not been 300% since the initial release so if they were doing it for the fans it would not be such a blatant cash grab.

If you had read my post you would have seen that the answer to your second question is fairly simple. If my collection decreases in value, there is a tangible loss, someone is hurt with real loss by that happening. I am willing to accept the loss that may happen due to natural market forces but not some douchebag flooding the market with forgeries. If someone does not have the toys in their collection they may be a little butthurt but they have not lost anything because they never had it. For example, I'm assuming you have a job here, and say you walked in tomorrow to find out you had been let go because they hired an illegal immigrant to do the same job for a third of the cost. You're saying you'd be cool with that because of the benefit to the illegal immigrant regardless of the loss to yourself? Because that's what you're asking with your question.

I think of my collecting as both a hobby and an investment. In all fairness my post was pretty long but you really didn't read it did you? One of the main reasons I got into collecting was because it was the most fun way I could think of to invest with some degree of security. I have some toys like Skylanders that I realize I will never be able to get anything out of, and then I have large purchases like Laser Beasts which I would have never paid the prices I did for if someone told me some day I would only be able to get 10% of it back for which is a realistic risk if this guy keeps pumping out more and more identical counterfeit pieces.

I don't expect everyone else to pay what I did for an item. I expect them to pay what the market dictates something is worth which will fluctuate up and down based on normal market conditions. There is a reason producing bootleg goods is a crime and illegal and that is because we live in a market driven capitalistic economy. When people stop playing by the rules to give themselves an unfair advantage the system breaks down and ultimately people lose their jobs, their savings, their retirement, etc.

You are probably thinking, oh this is just one guy with toys so who cares, but it is symptomatic of the larger problem in our society and if you just close your eyes and act like a sheep because you see the benefit it creates for you then you are part of the problem. The larger economic problem we have did not start out that way, it was a series of unethical behaviors over decades that gradually increased in scale as people tested the waters to see what they could or could not get away with. I generally do not support unethical/illegal behavior in any form which includes bootlegging. To me toys are not a concern large enough to set my ethics aside for because ooh ooh I want it but don't want to pay for it. That's a simple minded, self centered, solipsistic view of the world that in the long run hurts everyone. You may be happy today with your $3 Chinese bootleg, but I bet you would also be disappointed someday when your job got shipped there to help make it. When looking at issues like this and the precedent they set, you need to be able to look past the individual transaction to what it represents.
-Barry
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#75 Draznar

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:54 PM

I attempted to read through this thread, but it's pretty much the same thing on every page. One person claims that this is ruining the market, another offers a rebuttal saying that it is fine.

I thought this board was about toy enthusiasts and collectors. If this is true, why does it matter if the value is dropping? You still have your toys and your collection, isn't that what it is about? When I look at my collection, I don't think of it as a pay-cheque or its overall value, I think about how cool it is and how much I appreciate it. If it drops in value and I don't want them anymore, I'll give them to my daughter.

I will agree that it's bad for the market, because I'd like to own original pieces. I don't want to pay the price of an original for a reproduction, but that just means I'll have to be more sceptical in the future of really good deals. This seems to be a pretty good community, so if we work together to keep sellers honest we should be fine.
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