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How much fun is a hobby if you can't share it with anyone?


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#26 Beligerant1

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 05:57 AM

I know hunterrosse isnt trying to be hard on Jkaris or any of the mods, but I think that the reason arforbes antics werent all at the forefront is because everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt. We did the same as the newbs on first time trades that got dirty figures, rationalizing "maybe it was just a fluke" "maybe he wont do it again" etc. We all (I think except for veers and doc) had a hard time believing that someone would behave differently from ourselves when it came to the ethics of trading/collecting muscles. That is until you become convinced. I guess for me, I need two points of reference, yapiel by itself I guess I thought could have been a fluke, but yapiel + balucard = shady.

I never personally had a shady dealing with arforbes that I know of, we had several small trades, I sold 400+ of my extras and a satan cross to him for a fair "member" price, I traded him the purple claw fourpack for a purple #3. I always suspected he had two purple #3s since he traded it so easily, or it may have just been because he was seeing dollar signs, but I don't truly care, I'd make the same trade again, and I'm not in it for profit so I could care less if he sold the four pack for $625. Interesting to note that he did change muscledb to reflect our trade and since then the slot for purple #3 has remained blank on his profile, so maybe he didnt have two.

Speaking of muscledb, it pisses me off that arforbes was manipulating it to sell stuff. I just found out about that with this balucard stuff like johnny did. I was the one who saw that someone else (whose identity was never discovered) was inflating numbers to make some of arforbes ebay auctions look common. I spent time going through each muscledb profile until I could pinpoint where those numbers were coming from (one reason for my idea in the pinned muscledb thread), then pmd alex about it. I was looking out for a fellow member of the board. For him to turn around and do the same thing, in order to take advantage of other board members, is utterly unscrupulous.

I for one, really would like to hear an explanation from alex, not so much for tall tales about guys named Dan that hijacked your ebay account, but for what you felt was so important that any of this was necessary. Money? I thought you were already rich? Just to see if you could do it? I guess not.

Edited by Beligerant1, 04 June 2008 - 05:58 AM.

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#27 Soupie

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:04 AM

Okay, NOW this discussion is getting GOOD! This stuff NEEDS to be openly talked about!

But really there are a few other members here that are just like him, Angels who bite you in the A$$ while you are listening to their beautiful voice. Veterans too.

Whoa! There is a HUGE difference between someone creating a duplicate eBay account, using it to shill, and trying to sell fake items -- and someone getting the upper hand in a toy deal. Seriously.

There is a particular type of rare Japanese keshi that I collect. I was torn, but I decided to post pictures of them in my collection thread because I wanted to share them with everyone! As I suspected, they caught the attention of MANY people and I've received many PMs about them. Now, I am still ACTIVELY trying to collect these toys! Recently, I had a member PM and ask me where they could get them, how much they were worth, how much should they expect to bid on them.... Uh, what am I supposed to say? Tell him what my top bid would be or what? :) What if I told him, "Eh, they are worth about $15" and I then turn around and bid $20. (I DIDN'T do that.) One member here even transplanted pictures of these figures from my collection thread into a "Needs Toys" thread he created to try and get some of these figures. :)

Ah, how to express what I'm trying to say...

(1) Yes, we're all "friends" here, but you can't expect people to just GIVE you stuff. In a trade, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you're getting what you want!

(2) We all know that a lot of vintage toys are NOT mint. Having said that, if someone swaps you garbage, but didn't make it clear that it was garbage -- send them a PM immediately, if that doesn't work, call them out!

(3) But, do so at your own RISK! If you aren't honest in your calling out, you may damage future deals with the person -- hell, you may damage it EVEN if you are honest. That's a risk you HAVE to take. Furthermore, be aware that people are watching! If you squeak TOO much, people will hesitate to deal with you.

(4) Communication, communication, communication. Karma, karma, karma. What goes around comes around. There's a balance -- like above -- between when to complain/call out, and when to stay silent. The bottom line is, some are better at wheeling and dealing than others -- but let's NOT confuse it with immoral/illegal things such as lying, stealing, duplicate accounts, shilling, etc.

Also, recently Ericnilla sold CTM a rare NY Cheap Toys figure on ebay. A few weeks later, CTM turned around and sold it at a profit. Shady? Not at all! CTM had EVERY right to do that. Now, some people might disagree with me... and that's where the communication comes in. Let people know how you feel. (Incidentally, when Eric good-heartedly commented on it, CTM lied and said it was a different figure. :) )

I'm thinking of the case with Arforbes buying a Mordle for $5 and then refusing to sell others for $5. For one thing, not all Mordles have the same availability -- some are more arare than others, and some are more sought after than others. Hunter, you even said yourself that you like these other two BETTER. Now, I'm not saying Hunter is wrong in his opinion -- but he and I disagree and it important to communicate about this! This is an example I would point to where Arforbes was being savvy. (And, incidentally, he did the same thing to me with the Mordles. :( )

(5) Finally, I struggle BIG TIME with sharing information about toys I am actively collecting... but do so anyhow. I KNOW for a fact that my Web sites have caused some toys I collect to increase in value simply by creating more awareness/demand. :( But the value of sharing these toys far outweighs keeping the info secrete. What I'm trying to say is, by sharing this information, the positive results for me have far outweighed the negative! How you handle yourself with members translates directly to how your transactions go.

As for receiving dirty figures from Arforbes... Sending him a PM and trying to work it out privately was definitely the RIGHT thing to do, but if that doesn't work and you are not satisfied with the transaction, you HAVE to take the risk and leave feedback that expresses how you feel. Yes, it's a HUGE risk. For instance, there is one member here, CuttleFishforsale, who I will NEVER do business with because of the feedback he gives people he deals with. This guy JUMPS all over people if they don't ship his stuff IMMEDIATELY. He has even gone so far as to publically call them out as LIARS if their stuff doesn't arrive when he wants it to. However, I'm sure he's had many GREAT transactions as well. Again, how you behave affects how others approach you.

But that's the risk you have to take. If you are not happy with a deal, send the person a PM, get TGB, Jkaris, or someone you both know involved, but ultimately you have to leave feedback that reflects how you feel. It's not fair to complain about it weeks, months, years after the fact.

And as much as we're all friends here, the responsibility still falls on both parties to insure they are happy with a transaction. Don't assume because someone is a veteran member or has a huge collection that they will just throw you deals, let you have the upper hand in a trade, or give you extras. (Although, in my experience this USUALLY is the case!)

Have you ever heard the phrase: Be a defensive driver? Well, even here amongst generally good people, you have to be a "defensive" collector.
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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:23 AM

I would change this thread’s title. It is about the banning of Alex (arforbes) and our feelings, impressions, and reactions. Without him here to respond, it is in bad taste to call it a psychological dissection. Speaking as a psychologist, and including myself, we are unable to really look at anything besides what Alex exhibited and offered on the board.

Granted, we all have impressions and have drawn our conclusions. But no one has the information to provide a psychological analysis of Alex.

Having said that, that dude was crazy.

Alex regularly offered me terrible deals, “I’ll give you X number of figures for your (blank).”

I’d always ask him, “Why would I trade a figure that you can’t find, and only two are known to exist, for X number of common figures?”

And without fail I would get one of two responses. The first was simply no answer. This was the one he gave most often. The second was the response that mystified me, “But you’re getting 30 figures for 1 figure. That puts you closer to completing the set.”

If Alex had a sin, then it was Pride. He thought he was smarter than people. He thought he could use this silly offer to flabbergast me (he couldn’t). He thought he could dupe people in trades, he thought he could be another person, and even after being caught - he thought he could do it again.

Alex did some great things for our community. I think those great things stemmed from his need to possess the great things. That’s what separated him.

Other people do great things for the enjoyment and community. That’s what unites this group. I wish I had the time to do more for the hobby. I wish I could get the University of MUSCLE up and running. I wish I could set-up the next LRG tournament. I wish I could take pictures of all my figures, and MUSCLE stuff I’ve found, and share it. I just don’t have the time.

There is a piece of me that is sad to see him go, but it is only a momentary regret. I really see this entire situation as an opportunity for our group. This is the wake-up call for us to treat others as we would want to be treated and really look out for each other. If you have a bad trade, then let people know. Encourage new members to ask experienced veterans – whether it’s trades, prices, or anything.

I’m not trying to say we should be a koom-by-ya love circle. Bid to win auctions on eBay and don’t feel bad. Tell people that their posts are nonsensical bullshizznit. Just don’t screw over LRG members. We may not be inviting each other to weddings and birthday parties, but this is the best group of LRG loving friends you will ever have. You don’t want to lose it.
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#29 Personality #9

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:47 AM

I am really under the opinion that Alex isn't very different from any of us. Without admitting to any wrongdoing or suggesting that anyone here has done anything that I'm aware of, I know that we all are doing, have done, or will do shady things while trading/selling things on message boards and eBay. I'd say the only real difference here is that Alex got caught being shady.

Granted, Alex has proven to be way more extreme and outright creepy, with the creating of multiple eBay accounts and messaging members about the auctions and such. I love how much effort he put into it too, even putting an international tag on the packages that we "sent" from Canada.

I don't condemn Alex for what he did. In many ways it shows how easy it is to ... and how gullible we can be as consumers. I'm sure many of the sellers that I've purchased things from over the years have been phony people, and I know that I've been duped into paying more for items by someone using similar methods to Alex's.

That being said, I do not praise Alex for anything that he has done. Especially on a message board with such a tight knit community like this one, Alex was essentially just asking to get booted. While we’re all looking out for #1, Alex’s greed blinded his better judgment.

I've actually always liked Alex. I never done any transactions with him, but we did have a number of times where we had some fun on threads and we did speak on the phone a few times in late 2006/early 2007. So in that respect, I'm kinda bummed that he's not gonna be around anymore.
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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:53 AM

I am really under the opinion that Alex isn't very different from any of us. Without admitting to any wrongdoing or suggesting that anyone here has done anything that I'm aware of, I know that we all are doing, have done, or will do shady things while trading/selling things on message boards and eBay. I'd say the only real difference here is that Alex got caught being shady.

I could not disagree more, but that is coming from a personal point-of-view. I have never intentionally tried to mislead or dupe anyone – either on eBay or here. In fact, I try to be as honest as possible.

In fact, my concern has bitten me in the ass. I had an eBay buyer that thought I bought postal insurance just because I knew an item was damaged. Truthfully I did it, and often do it, with items that have cost people lots of money. To him it was proof the item was already damaged. To me it was just trying to do something nice.

If you think that everyone is doing what Alex did, then I really need to make some changes.
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#31 Personality #9

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:59 AM

If you think that everyone is doing what Alex did, then I really need to make some changes.


Don't take my phrase too literally Veers. I'm not implying that everyone here is just trying to rip everyone else off or anything extreme like that. I'm just stating that I've started to see through tactics from members or seen certain advertising methods on item descriptions on eBay, or even just outright "perfect" timing on auctions to maximize making a buck or two more on an item.

While Alex was on on the extreme end, I'm just saying that philosophically, he's no different than anyone else with what he was ultimately doing.
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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:04 AM

Your post clarifies that you’re thinking along a spectrum, but there’s still a world of difference.

Using sexual experiences as my spectrum analogy - most board members have held hands, while Alex was in a full blown 60 person orgy with animals and corpses.
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#33 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:10 AM

Alex was in a full blown 60 person orgy with animals and corpses.



That isn't on Youtube is it?! :) :)
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#34 Personality #9

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:11 AM

Your post clarifies that you’re thinking along a spectrum, but there’s still a world of difference.

Using sexual experiences as my spectrum analogy - most board members have held hands, while Alex was in a full blown 60 person orgy with animals and corpses.


:)

Yes, I agree with you 100%. Alex was definitely the outlyer, nowhere close to fitting into umbrella of the bell-shaped curve that most of us fit under.

Still funny though! :)
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#35 Kevin Mayle

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:13 AM

To differ from my posts in this thread and give my opinion on a nagging question.
"Why would Alex do this after the whole Yapiel fiasco?"
My guess would be, these are the only things he has been caught doing. It may just scratch the surface. There could be a never ending series of shady doings, both large and small that go undetected. That would give someone a bolster of confidence to believe they can continue to fool people. It happens in every facet of life. I know people that have been drinking and driving at least 5 times a week for over 20 years, but they haven't ever been pulled over or caused an accident. The day they get caught will not be the only instance they ever drove drunk.

Now to go back to my original topic, to answer another qualm.
"I would change this thread’s title. It is about the banning of Alex (arforbes) and our feelings, impressions, and reactions."
Well it is now, but it wasn't when I started the thread.
"Without him here to respond, it is in bad taste to call it a psychological dissection, we are unable to really look at anything besides what Alex exhibited and offered on the board."
It may very well be in bad taste, and for that I am glad the thread title was changed from being about Alex, and more about a psychological dissection of the behavior he exhibited and offered on the board. Maybe it is still in poor taste to try and examine and think about the behavior patterns of a type of individual, and how it relates to our own behavior, because the examination was sparked by an actual person. Maybe the thread should have remained closed then. Because many people here feel this event warranted a little discussion before being swept under the rug and forgotten about, and wanted the thread reopened for awhile to change the discussion to being precisely about Alex and his exact actions. Then maybe they should have their time to discuss it. Either way, it still may be in poor taste, but manipulating people to rip them off is serious enough to not keep many people here silent, just because Alex no longer has this forum to defend his actions with yet another string of lies.

Edited by Kevin Mayle, 04 June 2008 - 08:17 AM.

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#36 CCVegita

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:17 AM

(BTW, Jon I hoped you blocked that member too. I think you might have, but, we need to make sure. Ayro Bagas and I will have to ask Ron again for his member name.)

That was instant_karma......I am surprised I beat you to that Czarcher. :)
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#37 Soupie

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:18 AM

Using sexual experiences as my spectrum analogy - most board members have held hands, while Alex was in a full blown 60 person orgy with animals and corpses.

Yeah, let's be REAL careful here! That's the same point I was trying to make.

There's a big, BIG difference between:

(1) Hey, he made a fake account and shilled up an auction I was bidding on, and

(2) Hey, last year, when we swapped toys, I didn't know my toys were worth more than his toys.

I'm going to have to disagree with P9 and say they I most certainly DON'T think most people here do the things Arforbes (and CTM) were doing. Most of us have consciences that wouldn't allow it, but most importantly, most of us don't have the effing time to do it!

:)
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#38 Personality #9

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:25 AM

Using sexual experiences as my spectrum analogy - most board members have held hands, while Alex was in a full blown 60 person orgy with animals and corpses.

Yeah, let's be REAL careful here! That's the same point I was trying to make.

There's a big, BIG difference between:

(1) Hey, he made a fake account and shilled up an auction I was bidding on, and

(2) Hey, last year, when we swapped toys, I didn't know my toys were worth more than his toys.

I'm going to have to disagree with P9 and say they I most certainly DON'T think most people here do the things Arforbes (and CTM) were doing. Most of us have consciences that wouldn't allow it, but most importantly, most of us don't have the effing time to do it!

:)


I disagree with you on the principle here Soupie. I believe that shilling up an auction is no different that swapping items with a member when you know you're stuff is worth "X" and what you're getting is worth "2X" while the person you're trading with isn't aware/concerned with the values involved.

I believe that ultimately there is no difference in those kind of practices, because at the end of the day you're still ripping somebody off, only by using an "acceptable" method. It's "okay" to make a trade with someone to obtain an item of greater value, but it's not okay to shill on an item on eBay. Where is the difference here? The customer is still getting ripped off at the end of the day.
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Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:11 AM

Now to go back to my original topic, to answer another qualm.
"I would change this thread’s title. It is about the banning of Alex (arforbes) and our feelings, impressions, and reactions."
Well it is now, but it wasn't when I started the thread.
"Without him here to respond, it is in bad taste to call it a psychological dissection, we are unable to really look at anything besides what Alex exhibited and offered on the board."
It may very well be in bad taste, and for that I am glad the thread title was changed from being about Alex, and more about a psychological dissection of the behavior he exhibited and offered on the board. Maybe it is still in poor taste to try and examine and think about the behavior patterns of a type of individual, and how it relates to our own behavior, because the examination was sparked by an actual person. Maybe the thread should have remained closed then. Because many people here feel this event warranted a little discussion before being swept under the rug and forgotten about, and wanted the thread reopened for awhile to change the discussion to being precisely about Alex and his exact actions. Then maybe they should have their time to discuss it. Either way, it still may be in poor taste, but manipulating people to rip them off is serious enough to not keep many people here silent, just because Alex no longer has this forum to defend his actions with yet another string of lies.

:) Let’s just call a spade a spade. It was always about Alex. It is like stating a thread, “What would you do if planes crashed into a skyscraper in your city?”

But I do agree, this event is an important topic to talk about.
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#40 Soupie

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:25 AM

I disagree with you on the principle here Soupie. I believe that shilling up an auction is no different that swapping items with a member when you know you're stuff is worth "X" and what you're getting is worth "2X" while the person you're trading with isn't aware/concerned with the values involved.

I believe that ultimately there is no difference in those kind of practices, because at the end of the day you're still ripping somebody off, only by using an "acceptable" method. It's "okay" to make a trade with someone to obtain an item of greater value, but it's not okay to shill on an item on eBay. Where is the difference here? The customer is still getting ripped off at the end of the day.

Please, call me Soupie. :( (Seriously. :) )

First of all, I think it is GREAT that we are discussing this! I think it needs to be discussed because obviously, what you consider immoral, I consider perfectly fine! This is as great a time as ever to discuss what collecting "tactics" are shady and which are legit.

The first thing to consider is that we are talking about niche plastic toys that really only have a value that we as collectors give them. But I think the same principles apply with any material goods, whether we're talking about cars, houses, etc.

I regularly trade rare toys that I know are worth more money for rare toys that i know are worth less money. The reason I do this is because I personally value some rare toys over other rare toys regardless of how others value them.

I'll give three examples:

(1) I recently traded a 2nd series Cheap Toys figure straight up for a Bad Eggz Bunch figure. Going by eBay sales (which is always tricky) the 2nd series CT figure is "worth" more than the BEB figure. But to ME, the BEB was worth more.

(2) A few months ago, I traded a 2nd series Cheap Toys figure straight up for a rare 1st series Cheap Toys figure. The 2nd series figure was "worth" much more than the figure I got in return. But to ME, the 1st series figure was worth more.

(3) I had several MUSCLE figures sitting in my "Got Toys" thread for weeks. Two of them were priced higher than average. I've had several people express interest, and then when I wouldn't move on the price, the moved on. Recently, someone bought them. Was it my duty to tell them that others didn't like my price? Were the figures not "worth" what i was selling them for?

The "worth" of these toys is in the eye of the beholder. This is evident in the way people bid, but this "worth" is exacerbated when instead of $$$, it's toys for toys. It's not MY job to tell people what toys are worth. (If you've noticed, there is not one mention of a toy line's "value" on Toypedia or any of my other sites.) If you ask my wife, paying more than $.50 for any of these toys is TOO much.

Also, a toy line may be "worth" shizznit one week, and then "worth" $$$ the next -- depending on who's buying at the time.

Therefore, when I say to someone, I'll trade you "this" for "that" -- you know what, they can either yes, or they can say no. :) And honestly, how can you quantify this stuff? It has to come down to the two parties -- I'll swap you my SC for your rare laser beast. Which is worth more? I don't know... but I'd personally rather have a SC so that's a trade I'd make.

Now, if someone comes to me with a rare Cheap Toys figure and says, "Hey, Soupie, I saw your site. What is this worth?" And I say, "Not much, let me trade you this headless MUSCLE figure for it," then I have LIED and mislead them.

How is this different from somebody using a duplicate account to shill one of their auctions? In the first case, both collectors are only level playing fields -- they both have their toys, know how much they value their toys, and know what they will get in return for their toys.

In the case of shill bidding, the buyer and seller are not on level playing fields because the seller knows the shill account is bogus but the buyer does not -- and there is no way for the buyer to know that the shill account is bogus. Purposeful deceit that is (virtually) impossible for the buyer to be aware of.

Now, going back to the first situation: If someone purposefully misleads you about the toys you will be getting -- such as sending you dirty, scarred, and otherwise crappy stuff -- then that is wrong (unless of course they told you the stuff was in bad shape).

Furthermore, if someone does make a trade with someone knowing full well that the "value" of their toys is much greater, they run the risk of being called out and damaging future transactions. On the other hand, a seller can shill all day long, and never have to deal with "karmic" aftereffects (until they get caught, like KM said).

I'd love to hear how others feel about this. :) Do you guys feel that during any trade here, both parties are obligated to -- unsolicited -- say how much other people have paid/traded for all the toys in the deal -- or is it the responsibility of each individual collector to determine what each toy they have is "worth?"

(If this discussion is off topic, I apologize. But I do think the situation with Arforbes and just what is "right" and "wrong" deserve discussion somewhere.)
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#41 Soupie

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:54 AM

Do you guys feel that during any trade here, both parties are obligated to -- unsolicited -- say how much other people have paid/traded for all the toys in the deal -- or is it the responsibility of each individual collector to determine what each toy they have is "worth?"

Let me try to clarify where I'm coming from real quick:

(1) I'm not talking about collectors who purposefully and seek out newbs with the intention of ripping them off.

(2) On the other hand, there are times when as a collector you meet someone who has toys you collect and you are able to get them at a "steal." This sometimes happens on eBay, sometimes at Yard/Boot Sales, and sometimes here on the forum.

(3) The specific situation I'm thinking of, that may explain where I'm coming from, is that in general I think people -- including myself -- pay way too much for these toys.

Let's say myself and 2 other people are collecting colored MUSCLE figures. The other two people are willing to spend $25 per figure. I am only willing to pay $5 per figure. One day, I meet a collector who has a figure that I know these two people would pay $25 for. Let's say this collector collects My Little Pony figures, which I don't collect.

Am I wrong to offer this person $5 worth of My Little Ponys for a MUSCLE figure that I value at $5? What happens if this collector agrees, and then finds out 2 weeks later that he "may" have gotten $25 for the same figure -- even though I DON'T think it is worth that much?

Did I do something equivalent to shill bidding? It's a serious question!

Edited by Soupie, 04 June 2008 - 09:56 AM.

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#42 jkaris

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:07 AM

Since the trading value issue is on the table currently, I will tell you what I do.

When someone is offering something up for trade, and I want it, either for my collection or to resell, I always tell them that I am interested, how much it is worth to me, and how much that they may be able to get for it via eBay it from other members.

If they want a quick sale without the hassle of eBay or an extended process, I will get the item for a good price. If they are willing to invest the time and effort they will get a higher dollar amount. But I ALWAYS make sure they know the value.

That being said, if someone offers up something for a fixed price, I wouldn't necessarily say, "You have that too low, I will give you way more for it!" Although I may tell them it is worth more.

In your trades you should always follow the golden rule. I don't mean, "He who has the gold, makes the rules" either.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Treat everyone like you would hope to be treated.

But on the flip side, if it is someone who is not a collector, trying to offload something, I won't even bring up value. (i.e. flea markets, etc.)
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#43 Scumdogg

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:30 AM

I'd love to hear how others feel about this. :yes: Do you guys feel that during any trade here, both parties are obligated to -- unsolicited -- say how much other people have paid/traded for all the toys in the deal -- or is it the responsibility of each individual collector to determine what each toy they have is "worth?"



I think everyone's got a responsibility to do their own research, study the market a bit, and learn what things are worth before diving in. It would be nice if everyone always new the exact dollar value of every item in every trade they were involved in, but that's impossible at worst and tedious at best. At the end of the day, any given toy is only worth to you what you're willing to pay for it. Toys have no "inherent" value, you can't create a set monetary system around them. For example, i can go to a flea market, and if i'm lucky, score a $100 toy for $10. And not feel bad about it, because that vendor priced their own item, it's what it was worth to them. Now if i went to the same dealer and purchased 100 DOLLARS for $10, i'd feel bad because clearly they are blind or otherwise disabled.

I know in my own dealings on here, i have a pretty good handle on what i'm willing to pay for most items, and usually when i get a price quote it's been very near to that number, or less. If it's higher, but i can still easily afford it, i'll still usually try to go through with the deal, because i think if someone's selling their toys, they shouldn't be asked to sell them for less than they feel they're worth. Especially if someone's selling their toys, unique items in their collection, and not just duplicates. If it's higher than i can afford, no hard feelings. I just can't have that item yet, and i come away with a better idea of it's "value" for future purchases.

As far as selling toys, well...i haven't done much of that. Mostly trades for me. But i will say as far as selling or trading goes, making money is nice, but selling toys isn't my job. I'm not doing it for a profit. When i sell some extra M.U.S.C.L.E.s or trade off some Battle Beasts, it's usually been with the intent of passing along to a new collector the same great deals people gave me when i was just starting out. Granted, i'm not yet dealing in a lot of high-end items, but in my opinion a complete fleshie set or Battle Beasts 1-76 are something every new collector has a right to pursue cheaply. These are the building blocks that are going to keep someone around here and interested for a long time...if it's too frustrating or expensive, who would want a part of that? So i try to keep bare minimum values attached to everything i pass along, because in the end toy price inflation hurts collectors, it only helps ebay stores and other resellers.
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#44 ComradeCuttlefish

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:41 AM

OCD can really be a great thing or a horrible thing.

It's a good thing when it manifests itself in sex or head, but it's a pretty horrible thing when it shows itself in toy collecting. There's nothing better than fooling around with an OCD chick. I'm afraid I can't say the same for trading with an OCD collector.

I wish Alex the best. I'll miss seeing all those pictures of his glass outdoor table.
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#45 hunterrose2000

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:55 AM

(1) Yes, we're all "friends" here, but you can't expect people to just GIVE you stuff. In a trade, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you're getting what you want!

(2) We all know that a lot of vintage toys are NOT mint. Having said that, if someone swaps you garbage, but didn't make it clear that it was garbage -- send them a PM immediately, if that doesn't work, call them out!

(3) But, do so at your own RISK! If you aren't honest in your calling out, you may damage future deals with the person -- hell, you may damage it EVEN if you are honest. That's a risk you HAVE to take. Furthermore, be aware that people are watching! If you squeak TOO much, people will hesitate to deal with you.

(4) Communication, communication, communication. Karma, karma, karma. What goes around comes around. There's a balance -- like above -- between when to complain/call out, and when to stay silent. The bottom line is, some are better at wheeling and dealing than others -- but let's NOT confuse it with immoral/illegal things such as lying, stealing, duplicate accounts, shilling, etc.

Also, recently Ericnilla sold CTM a rare NY Cheap Toys figure on ebay. A few weeks later, CTM turned around and sold it at a profit. Shady? Not at all! CTM had EVERY right to do that. Now, some people might disagree with me... and that's where the communication comes in. Let people know how you feel. (Incidentally, when Eric good-heartedly commented on it, CTM lied and said it was a different figure. :yes: )

I'm thinking of the case with Arforbes buying a Mordle for $5 and then refusing to sell others for $5. For one thing, not all Mordles have the same availability -- some are more arare than others, and some are more sought after than others. Hunter, you even said yourself that you like these other two BETTER. Now, I'm not saying Hunter is wrong in his opinion -- but he and I disagree and it important to communicate about this! This is an example I would point to where Arforbes was being savvy. (And, incidentally, he did the same thing to me with the Mordles. :lol: )

(5) Finally, I struggle BIG TIME with sharing information about toys I am actively collecting... but do so anyhow. I KNOW for a fact that my Web sites have caused some toys I collect to increase in value simply by creating more awareness/demand. :cry: But the value of sharing these toys far outweighs keeping the info secrete. What I'm trying to say is, by sharing this information, the positive results for me have far outweighed the negative! How you handle yourself with members translates directly to how your transactions go.

As for receiving dirty figures from Arforbes... Sending him a PM and trying to work it out privately was definitely the RIGHT thing to do, but if that doesn't work and you are not satisfied with the transaction, you HAVE to take the risk and leave feedback that expresses how you feel. Yes, it's a HUGE risk. For instance, there is one member here, CuttleFishforsale, who I will NEVER do business with because of the feedback he gives people he deals with. This guy JUMPS all over people if they don't ship his stuff IMMEDIATELY. He has even gone so far as to publically call them out as LIARS if their stuff doesn't arrive when he wants it to. However, I'm sure he's had many GREAT transactions as well. Again, how you behave affects how others approach you.

But that's the risk you have to take. If you are not happy with a deal, send the person a PM, get TGB, Jkaris, or someone you both know involved, but ultimately you have to leave feedback that reflects how you feel. It's not fair to complain about it weeks, months, years after the fact.

And as much as we're all friends here, the responsibility still falls on both parties to insure they are happy with a transaction. Don't assume because someone is a veteran member or has a huge collection that they will just throw you deals, let you have the upper hand in a trade, or give you extras. (Although, in my experience this USUALLY is the case!)


Others have picked up this issue pro and con, but I think Soupie sums it up best. Of course, I have to disagree with a lot of it. :) First, it's not so easy for a non-vet will call out a vet for a minor infraction in a trade. Nor is it likely. Nobody HAS to bring their problems in the open. You give the reason yourself. Why should I jeopardize all future transactions with anyone else on the board, and risk being shunned for being over-sensitive, when I've only been shorted a few $? That's what happened with me and arforbes on the dirty figures trades and the mordles. I wasn't going to blast him on that in the feedback. I still wouldn't do it now. Personally, I don't want to be seen as a nitpicking complainer in deals. In fact, I only bring up my personal arforbes issues in light of the much more major problems that led to the ban -- I've had bad deals from others and dirty-for-clean trades, but still not on the level that arforbes took it to -- There's still no one that I would cut off completely for future deals, so I'm not going to blast anyone for little problems.

For that matter, I don't know if the comments about being defensive and not assuming a vet will give you a deal were directed at me or not (and THEGODBEAST touched on this as well), but I'll just say that of course I don't expect everyone to to do that. On ebay you have to expect that people are only considering their own profits. But on this board, within this community, I would expect people to treat each other fairly. That might mean that one or the other person still gets an upper hand at the expense of the other, but never by deception - major or minor. I took the mordle incident to be like this: He basically tells me that the mordles are worth $5. I sell him one on that basis. Later, when I ask to buy one or two, he tells me they are worth $10. Flat. Nothing to do with rarity. He wouldn't even have sold me back the one I sold him for $5. Again, it's minor stuff in the world of trading, but it's still shady, still duplicitous, and among a community like this, its especially bad. It just poisons the atmosphere. Again, it's hardly a huge ripoff and I'm not ranting about it, but it's the kind of thing that does not belong in a community. We ought to be able to count on each other at least that much, otherwise, what's the point?

I don't think, as Soupie asked about more recently, that LRG'ers are "obligated" to disclose exactly how much they have traded for figures in the past -- you want to make a quick simple deal and name your price? Even if you raised it a bit for this particular transaction? No problem. It might bite you on the ass, but it's hardly outside the bounds of fair dealing. Of course, there's a limit. When the price discrepancy is really high? A noob has a purple claw and you offer him a red one for it because he likes the color red better? That's bad juju. But, if the other person does ask how much it's been worth to others, you have to be honest in your reply. If you still want that higher price, you can be a salesman and make a good case for it, or just stand firm on it, but you shouldn't just lie.

And I agree that there is a world of difference between shilling and making an uneven trade. For one thing, there's no such thing as "knowing" for certain what a figure is worth to anyone else. And the price is only set by the two traders - dealing alone. Shilling involves changing the whole marketplace. By shilling you are artificially raising the price of an item, pretending that there are other people out there who value this item at a very high price. That causes some buyers to raise their own value for the item, thinking that they previously valued it too low. They think that if they stick to the low value, they can't compete and they can't get the item they want, so they try to match what they perceive the market value to be. That's not tough bargaining, that's just outright fraud, and it has no place anywhere.

And that's why I think that Yapiel thing was so bad and should have gotten much more continued public attention. It was basically reverse shilling. He bid up the claw astronomically so that LRGers thought the seller was shilling and no one would buy from him. So, he DEvalues the claw in the marketplace. Then, when the seller relists it, he can pick it up for even less than it would have sold in a straight sale to begin with, because he has no more competition. Then to put the cherry on top, when he's confronted with it, he spins the most outrageous novel-length bullsh*t to cover it up. Personally, I could not have let that slide. His ass would have been out right there and the whole shady deal posted and highlighted as unacceptable behavior. But, jkaris is just much more forgiving and very even-tempered. It's hardly a bad thing, and I'm not saying my way is "right" and everyone else's is "wrong". But I just think that if you want to have a safe and enjoyable community, sometimes you have to get rid of the jerks who will ruin it for everyone else. And I think what happened with Yapiel only encouraged arforbes to keep going with it. He either became smarter about the big frauds, or just stuck with small frauds for a while. But he obviously never stopped being a fraud. For me, the first time he got caught was one time too many, and I'm advocating that this be the policy in the future.

...and speaking of novel-length bullsh*t, I ought to be working right now... :notme:
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#46 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:58 AM

I didn't want to post again in here, but I will really quick.

Things I think that are wrong when dealing with others, just my opinion.

Trade - I feel it is wrong to take advantage of someone who doesn't have full knowledge of an item, but will probably find out it's true value shortly after they trade it. Like after the guy you traded it to immediately relists it at 20 times the value that you traded it to him for. Especially when that individual has told you the item/s he is trading you for it are worth more, when in fact they are not worth anywhere near it. Or if you are going to have to deal with that individual on a regular basis.

Selling - I think it is quite rude to tell someone how much something is worth after they bought it off of you for pennies. I had this sort of happen to me at the fleamarket once.

I was selling a vintage board game for 3 bucks cause it was in my way, I knew it's potential value, but didn't want to worry about it. I sold it as soon as I got to the fleamarket, like I thought I would. 3 hours later a different guy comes up to my table and starts small talk about comics, since I was selling some. It was innocent enough, but then he came out and said he was looking for the exact game I had sold that morning, and wondered if I had seen one.......I was like....sure....I sold one earlier for 3 bucks. Without missing a beat the guy snaps his fingers and says "Shucks! You know that game was worth $50 bucks!" And Speeds off before I can say anything else! No like I said I knew the potential value, but the condition of the game compared to the ones on eBay convinced me it wasn't worth the trouble. I don't believe I got ripped off at all, but I don't like people who's sole intention is to be a douchebag. :notme:

This guy and the guy who bought it obviously knew each other, and just wanted to rub their find in my face somehow. :yes: If I was a board owner like Jkaris, something like this would be reason enough for being suspended at the least.

Buying - It's hard to come up with anything as far as buying. The seller usually sets the price. But if your negotiating it would be wrong to tell that person that their item isn't worth that much if indeed it is, I guess. That's a tad vague.
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#47 Soupie

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 11:07 AM

If they want a quick sale without the hassle of eBay or an extended process, I will get the item for a good price. If they are willing to invest the time and effort they will get a higher dollar amount. But I ALWAYS make sure they know the value.

I'm glad you said that, because I was going to mention it. There have been times when Jkaris has told us he informed an eBay seller who maybe has a SR or something that the figure is worth $500-$900. When he does it, I always cringe because to *me* I do not think they are worth $500-$900.

But technically, they are because there are people who have paid as much. And I also know that Jkaris doesn't want the seller to get "ripped" off by someone offering, say, $50 for it. Ah, it's such a grey area for me.

I mean, if an ebay seller has a pile of figs with a SC in it, and one of us were to pick the entire lot up for $20... is that wrong? Should we have contacted the seller and said, "Hey, you have a SC in there that is worth $50."

Now if a I were to learn that a member here has a SC, I couldn't take it off their hands for $20. I would certainly offer them at least $40 or $40 worth of toys. Part of the deal here, though, is that the value of SC is a little more clear-cut. SC has consistently gone for $40-$50 for years.

On the other hand, even though SR have gone for upwards of $900, I would have NO qualms offering someone $250-300 for one.

Am I splitting hairs here, or is that making sense to anyone else?
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#48 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 11:14 AM

By the way, who the FJORK is this Soupie guy P9 mentioned!? :yes: Some shady B@stard I'm sure. :lol:


:notme: j/k.
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#49 meatcutta78

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 11:20 AM

If they want a quick sale without the hassle of eBay or an extended process, I will get the item for a good price. If they are willing to invest the time and effort they will get a higher dollar amount. But I ALWAYS make sure they know the value.

I'm glad you said that, because I was going to mention it. There have been times when Jkaris has told us he informed an eBay seller who maybe has a SR or something that the figure is worth $500-$900. When he does it, I always cringe because to *me* I do not think they are worth $500-$900.

But technically, they are because there are people who have paid as much. And I also know that Jkaris doesn't want the seller to get "ripped" off by someone offering, say, $50 for it. Ah, it's such a grey area for me.

I mean, if an ebay seller has a pile of figs with a SC in it, and one of us were to pick the entire lot up for $20... is that wrong? Should we have contacted the seller and said, "Hey, you have a SC in there that is worth $50."

Now if a I were to learn that a member here has a SC, I couldn't take it off their hands for $20. I would certainly offer them at least $40 or $40 worth of toys. Part of the deal here, though, is that the value of SC is a little more clear-cut. SC has consistently gone for $40-$50 for years.

On the other hand, even though SR have gone for upwards of $900, I would have NO qualms offering someone $250-300 for one.

Am I splitting hairs here, or is that making sense to anyone else?


I like many others here don't want to reply in this post,I said what I had to say up above,It was short and sweet.

Soups
I agree with you 100% here,You make a great point. :yes:

If a seller who has no knowledge of what he/she has and in no way is connected to this hobby,Then so be it let us get a score.
Reminds me of the auction a few months back where a seller had a SC and a Sunburst Leo in the same auction,I remember the auction sold for cheap,Considering what was in it,That was a great score for that buyer.

Edited by meatcutta78, 04 June 2008 - 11:27 AM.

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#50 Personality #9

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 11:21 AM

Am I splitting hairs here, or is that making sense to anyone else?


Well, as always Du --- er, Soupie, your answers are well thought out and articulated with a true sense of professionalism! :yes: That being said, I do feel that we have gotten off of topic quite a bit with this.

Now please appreciate the fact that I am being philosphical here, so my arguement is based on any form of morals.

While I do not praise the "art" of the shill bid, as a seller, why not use any possible resource to get the maximum value for the product you are attempting to sell? Nothing is more frustrating than to see an item that you have sell for $300 regularly on eBay for other sellers, and when you post it only sells for say $75. If people are willing to spend $300, why not "let" them spend $300?

The same logic can be applied with trading. If I have an item that's worth $100 that I'm trading to Joe Blow for and item that's worth $150, aren't I essentially ripping off Joe Blow for $50? That sort of thing happens all the time, esspecially on message boards such as this one and most of us have been in on a trade like that.

My arguement is that Alex was doing the same thing, but to a much greater level. I think it's kinda hard for us to talk shizznit about Alex simply because he got caught. It's funny, and yes, somewhat sad, but we're all guilty of it here.
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