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Parts: Total Sculpts, Missing Sculpts, and Trees


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#1 Soupie

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 12:19 PM

Here are four domains of data taken from the MUSCLE parts.

(1) Total Number of Missing Sculpts Per Part

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Note: Only three of the 21 parts are not missing at least one sculpt.

(2) Total Number of Sculpts Per Part (including the missing non-MUSCLE sculpts)

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(3) Total Number of Sculpts Per Part (NOT including the missing non-MUSCLE sculpts)

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(4) Total Number of Trees Per Part

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Note: The average appears to be 2 trees per part.

Well, at least using this crude bar graph method, there does not appear to be any correlation between any of these domains...
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#2 Guest_General Veers_*

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 09:24 AM

(4) Total Number of Trees Per Part

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Note: The average appears to be 2 trees per part.

I’ve been looking at these numbers and I feel like there’s something here. But I don’t know the trees, parts, etc. well enough yet, so I need some help.

You pointed out that there tends to be 2 trees. Bear with me as I try to explain this.

Parts 1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 have two trees.

Parts 4, 11, 12, and 16 have one tree.
Part 3 has three trees.
Parts 5, 7, and 8 have three trees.

These eight Parts strike me as outliers. Could they be more connected? Should everything have “two trees”?

Part 4 + Part 11 = 2 Trees
Part 12 + Part 16 = 2 Trees

Split Part 5 and you have two trees, and the same thing with Parts 7 and 8.

Now Part 3 is still the outlier. Does this account for the Super Rares? I know the Trees and Parts might be off, but I assume that could be juggled (i.e., Part 4 + Part 16). Does any of this ring true for you? Am I just seeing patterns that don’t exist?
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#3 Guest_General Veers_*

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 09:41 AM

I was wondering about something else too. With the string that Alex found there were an even number - 16 figures, with 8 on each side.

Then we look at the first three tables and you see some odd numbers. My first inclination is that odd numbers had 2-part figures (e.g., SC). But most of these figures are connected and most likely molded together. Then I thought of the figures that are actually two figures engaged in a wrestling move. This might account for some of the odd numbers.

But what about when Mattel contracts Bandai to start creating figures? We know some figures are dropped. So how were the molds done? Shouldn’t we see almost exclusively even numbers? Especially with 4-, 10-, and 28-packs.
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#4 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:46 AM

(4) Total Number of Trees Per Part

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Note: The average appears to be 2 trees per part.

I’ve been looking at these numbers and I feel like there’s something here. But I don’t know the trees, parts, etc. well enough yet, so I need some help.

You pointed out that there tends to be 2 trees. Bear with me as I try to explain this.

Parts 1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 have two trees.

Parts 4, 11, 12, and 16 have one tree.
Part 3 has three trees.
Parts 5, 7, and 8 have three trees.

These eight Parts strike me as outliers. Could they be more connected? Should everything have “two trees”?

Part 4 + Part 11 = 2 Trees
Part 12 + Part 16 = 2 Trees

Split Part 5 and you have two trees, and the same thing with Parts 7 and 8.

Now Part 3 is still the outlier. Does this account for the Super Rares? I know the Trees and Parts might be off, but I assume that could be juggled (i.e., Part 4 + Part 16). Does any of this ring true for you? Am I just seeing patterns that don’t exist?



I really don't know what your trying to get at about the 2 tree thing. Each tree is a separate runner of figures. And 5, 7, and 8 has 4 trees because each tree has completely different color combination results. I can't see any significance to there being two trees per part. ;) Is there any final result you hope to reveal from there being 2 trees or whatever? It just seems like dry information that can't reveal anything important. :lol: Maybe I missing what Soupie is trying to figure out.

Then we look at the first three tables and you see some odd numbers. My first inclination is that odd numbers had 2-part figures (e.g., SC). But most of these figures are connected and most likely molded together. Then I thought of the figures that are actually two figures engaged in a wrestling move. This might account for some of the odd numbers.

Well, as you said all the SR two piece sculpts are from the same Kinnikuman part, and chances are they were possibly on the same trees. If I remember correctly there were 3 parts that had posed figures. Soupie have you included these figures on your site? They are relevant Non-muscle sculpts, and should be taken into consideration.

But what about when Mattel contracts Bandai to start creating figures? We know some figures are dropped. So how were the molds done? Shouldn’t we see almost exclusively even numbers? Especially with 4-, 10-, and 28-packs.

Well, knowing which figures were on the same trees can't reveal how many of each figure were on a one given tree. There are many muscle figs where the cutoff point from the runner is in different places, meaning there were multiple #'s of some figs on a tree. But that doesn't mean that all of them were like that, and there wouldn't exactly be an even Number throughout.

Sorry, but all in all I don't see where you guys are going with this. I don't want to seem like a know it all or anything. :(
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#5 Guest_General Veers_*

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:59 AM

I don’t have any result I driving towards. I’m just talking about data. This is some of the data we have. What, if anything, does it tell us?

Each tree is a separate runner of figures. And 5, 7, and 8 has 4 trees because each tree has completely different color combination results. I can't see any significance to there being two trees per part.

I thought that the idea was that a “tree” was a grouping in which the figures were created?

Well, knowing which figures were on the same trees can't reveal how many of each figure were on a one given tree. There are many muscle figs where the cutoff point from the runner is in different places, meaning there were multiple #'s of some figs on a tree. But that doesn't mean that all of them were like that, and there wouldn't exactly be an even Number throughout.

Again, I thought the trees were important. But what you’re saying is interesting. With multiple figures on trees could we guess that Odd numbers mean multiple single figures – which contributes to rarity. Even if you look at Flesh figures, certain molds are more prevalent. Would this help uncover the specific breakdowns? Leading to an even better understanding of the color figures.

So we’d be able to know that a certain tree is rare, but figures X, Y, and Z are extra rare because only one mold was made while everything else on the tree was double.
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#6 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 11:42 AM

Sorry, but all in all I don't see where you guys are going with this. I don't want to seem like a know it all or anything. sad.

Ah, patience grasshopper. Allow me to explain.

You're asking what's the significance of the majority of parts consisting of two trees? Well, did you know that of the 4 parts (4, 11, 12, and 16) that have only one tree, only 1 of them is missing a sculpt? The one missing a sculpt is part 11 -- it is actually missing two sculpts. (The norm per part seems to be 1 or 2 sculpts missing -- there are 6 parts missing 1 sculpt and 6 parts missing 2 sculpts.)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a strong suspicion that Part 11 is ACTUALLY two trees -- not one. What would be the significance of this? Well, Part 11 would then be quite "normal." It would then fit the "norm" and be a part with two trees and missing two sculpts... Whereas the remaining three parts that only have one tree would all be missing NO sculpts. Do you see the trend?

Parts with multiple trees are MISSING sculpts, whereas parts with one tree are NOT missing sculpts. (Why would Mattel do this? Is it a coincidence? Executive: Make sure that you include in the MUSCLE line all the sculpts coming from parts with 1 tree -- but if a part has multiple tree, be sure to exclude some of the sculpts...)

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(Keep in mind that there is only 1 Red figure found for this part -- the one the Arforbes recently found.)

Now before you say there is no way that Part 11 could be two trees, check this out:

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Look at these 2 trees from Part 8. As I noted, the only thing different between them is that one was made in Grape and the other was not.

What would have happened if the one wasn't made in Grape? Yep, URS, you would have been forced to group those two trees as ONE tree because they had the same color combo! That means that it is possible that Part 11 is actually two trees.

How do we know for certain that these two trees... are indeed two trees? Because one of them was used to make the Grape figures. If these trees were actually one, there would be 9 Grape figures, not just 5. (Yes, it is extremely confusing!!)

The point is, I'm looking for patterns -- does the number of trees a part has affect the number of missing sculpts it has? Maybe! Does the number of total sculpts a part has, affect the number of missing sculpts? Maybe!

These are questions that have to be looked into.

These eight Parts strike me as outliers. Could they be more connected? Should everything have “two trees”?

Veers, I've been asking myself the same questions -- although I'm not sure you're thinking of the trees correctly.

Remember that the Kinnikuman parts did not all come out at the same time. There were a few parts (sets) released each year. Anyhow, as you can see below, the "average" number of sculpts in each part seems to be about 12 sculpts per part:

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In any case, based on the physics of injection molding, only a certain number of sculpts could be placed on 1 tree (mold). So, the number of sculpts in each part (set) determined how many trees (molds) would be needed to make all of them.

If a Kinnikuman part had a lot of figures in it, it would presumably take more trees to make all the figures.

The average number of sculpts per tree is 4-5 (graph coming soon) and that seems right (which is another reason why I think the huge trees -- like the tree from Part 11 which has 12 sculpts, seem waaay to big). The fewer sculpts on a mold (tree) the better they would turn out, I imagine. Remember, the melted plastic has to flow into the mold and reach all the way to the end to fill all the sculpts perfectly. The more sculpts on a tree, the harder to fill them correctly.

So, Veers, I think you're on to something when you ask if "two trees" should be the standard. I look at it differently an ask, should each part have an EVEN number of trees. The problem is, some of the parts with two trees have two HUGE trees! Take Part 1 for instance:

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Now, I have to ask... is it possible that the above two trees should actually be 4 trees? I'm not trying to stir controversy... but remember the average number of sculpts per tree is 4-5. That to me make sense. Although, the tree that arforbes found did have 8 sculpts on it... Still, questions have to be asked.

The other thing is, look at Part 12 that is made of a single tree. It's puny!

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In any case, it's good to ask questions and look for connections. Don't be so quick to say someone is going down a dead end, especially if you don't quite understand what their following!

I still want to know:

(1) Why certain parts are missing sculpts
(2) Why certain trees are missing certain colors
(3) And why certain trees are rare/common in certain colors.

;)

Edited by Soupie, 02 August 2007 - 12:34 PM.

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#7 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:10 PM

Revised the above post.
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#8 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:49 PM

Well, as you said all the SR two piece sculpts are from the same Kinnikuman part, and chances are they were possibly on the same trees. If I remember correctly there were 3 parts that had posed figures. Soupie have you included these figures on your site? They are relevant Non-muscle sculpts, and should be taken into consideration.

If I'm understanding you guys correctly, actually no, none of the "posing" sculpts were in Parts 1-21. You can see all the non-MUSCLE sculpts here: The Non-MUSCLE Sculpts.

As for all the multi-part SRs. They do all belong to one part, Part 21. One of the most messed-up of all the parts/trees. Talk about outliers... not only does it contain super rares, but the balance between the two trees is waaay off.

In fact, I think the missing sculpts from part 21 are DIFFERENT from the missing sculpts from other parts (connected to them being SRs somehow).

Posted Image Posted Image

Case in point, the missing sculpts from Part 21 totally skew the two following graphs that otherwise might show a pattern!

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If Part 21 was NOT missing all those damn sculpts, there would be a fairly "strong" pattern between the number of MISSING SCULPTS a part has and the number of TREES that it has. As you can see, Part 21 totally ruins the pattern with the huge spike.

EDIT: Though I have wondered if there is a connection with it being the last part that Mattel had made and the number of sculpts missing. Kind of like the spike in the number of speeding tickets a cop gives at the end of the year to reach their quota. Maybe Mattel had to leave off 6 sculpts from the last part they ordered to meet their missing-sculpt quota...

;)

Edited by Soupie, 02 August 2007 - 01:00 PM.

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#9 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 01:56 PM

But what about when Mattel contracts Bandai to start creating figures? We know some figures are dropped. So how were the molds done? Shouldn’t we see almost exclusively even numbers? Especially with 4-, 10-, and 28-packs.

YES! Veers, I think you are on to something here, too.

I was thinking that the reason certain sculpts were left off trees was to even things out -- especially with the 28 packs. Unfortunately, it is (currently) impossible to pin down which trees are missing sculpts.

Let me give two examples to explain what mean. Look at Part One, it is made up of two trees:

Posted Image Posted Image

You can see that this part is missing exactly 1 sculpt -- signified by the 1 gray box. Now, I placed that gray box onto the first tree, because it balances the two trees, giving them both the same amount of sculpts -- which just seems natural.

However, this is not always possible to do. Look at Part Six for instance:

Posted Image Posted Image

You can see that the above part is missing exactly two sculpts, but no matter how I arrange them, I can't balance the two trees.

Same with Part 10:

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Again, I'm not sure what if anything this all might mean, but I can't help thinking there is something to it! Maybe... MAYBE... the sculpts that seem to "unbalance" the trees are actually their own tree?
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#10 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 02:09 PM

What would have happened if the one wasn't made in Grape? Yep, URS, you would have been forced to group those two trees as ONE tree because they had the same color combo! That means that it is possible that Part 11 is actually two trees.



Only if the Purple figures would have been just as common on both trees. I would have seperated them as two even if grape was not made if the purples on tree one were still rare.

The point is, I'm looking for patterns -- does the number of trees a part has affect the number of missing sculpts it has? Maybe! Does the number of total sculpts a part has, affect the number of missing sculpts? Maybe!


Ok, that answered my first question. So the result your trying to determine is whether the number of trees per part or figures per tree affect the reason some sculpts were not made. Ok. I don't know if there is enough raw data, but there may be something lying in there somewhere.

The average number of sculpts per tree is 4-5 (graph coming soon) and that seems right (which is another reason why I think the huge trees -- like the tree from Part 11 which has 12 sculpts, seem waaay to big). The fewer sculpts on a mold (tree) the better they would turn out, I imagine. Remember, the melted plastic has to flow into the mold and reach all the way to the end to fill all the sculpts perfectly. The more sculpts on a tree, the harder to fill them correctly.


Well Arforbes keshi string had 2 of each sculpt on the tree resulting in like 12 or 14 figures didn't it? ;) Anyways. They could fit 12 different sculpts on a single tree if they didn't double them up. These makes me think that the Kinkeshi 28 packs might be relevant information now. :lol: Maybe all the keshi's packed in 28 packs were from trees that only had one mold per figure. This needs more research. It also might reveal the Super Rare contengency. Someone find me a picture of a 28 pack that features the part 21 figures. I bet they were packed just like muscle 28 packs in that each packs color coordination may be consistent with their trees. That make sense?

As for your molding talk. They are injection molds, and air pressure can usually be increased to fill larger molds more efficiently. I mean look at the HUGE model kits like battle cruisers and stuff. Most of the plastic used is a type of chemical reaction of 2 or more substances that after mixed will harden I believe.

Now, I have to ask... is it possible that the above two trees should actually be 4 trees? I'm not trying to stir controversy... but remember the average number of sculpts per tree is 4-5. That to me make sense. Although, the tree that arforbes found did have 8 sculpts on it... Still, questions have to be asked.


Again remember that this was the first wave, and it would have been cheaper to have all the figures on one mold. However I do believe it is possible that these two trees could have both been 2 seperate trees that got the same treatment. Although I still think it's stronger to believe that 10 figures on a tree isn't too far fetched.

If I'm understanding you guys correctly, actually no, none of the "posing" sculpts were in Parts 1-21. You can see all the non-MUSCLE sculpts here: The Non-MUSCLE Sculpts.


We are talking about the Wrestling sculpts. The ones that are one piece that features 2 characters fighting, and the two piece wrestling sets. These are Non-Muscle Sculpts. I listed them all on the information I gave you a year ago. :(
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#11 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 02:53 PM

We are talking about the Wrestling sculpts. The ones that are one piece that features 2 characters fighting, and the two piece wrestling sets. These are Non-Muscle Sculpts. I listed them all on the information I gave you a year ago. :(

Yeah, I knew what you meant. My bad! They are totally in parts 1-21.

And you guys are right, they are TOTALLY relevant.

There are a ton of "posing" figures in Part 16 -- check it out: Part 16.

Now look at MUSCLE part 16:

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Cut down to ONE tree...

Part 12 and 15 also have "posing" figures, but they seem to be larger scale than regular kinnikuman and are ONLY in Flesh. And Part 13 has the Mask sculpt, which was probably on it's own tree... maybe.

What would have happened if the one wasn't made in Grape? Yep, URS, you would have been forced to group those two trees as ONE tree because they had the same color combo! That means that it is possible that Part 11 is actually two trees.


Only if the Purple figures would have been just as common on both trees. I would have seperated them as two even if grape was not made if the purples on tree one were still rare.

Hey, man, I'll trust you on that one, no need to argue really, but a quick look at the original data you sent me shows that Part One, Tree Two has 6 rare in Salmon and 6 Uncommon in Salmon. Still, you didn't split that tree in two, so something tells me if it weren't for those 5 Grape figures, those two trees would be one.

-_-

Well Arforbes keshi string had 2 of each sculpt on the tree resulting in like 12 or 14 figures didn't it? :unsure: Anyways. They could fit 12 different sculpts on a single tree if they didn't double them up.

On what "evidence" are you basing the idea that ALL the trees aren't doubled up on sculpts? Do you really think arforbes' Part 28 (?) tree is an exception? Hell, I just always assumed that all the trees had two of each sculpt. Unless I'm mistaken, this is pretty much standard practice for injection molding.

All that I've read about injection molding seems to indicate that it is NOT easy and not the most precise method. Balance is key. However, you may be exactly right that it didn't matter how many sculpts were on a tree... but that begs the question: Why have multi-tree at all parts then? Also, there is the fact that on average, trees were kept to 4-5 sculpts -- 12 seems like a pretty big departure.

Edited by Soupie, 02 August 2007 - 02:57 PM.

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#12 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 06:55 PM

What would have happened if the one wasn't made in Grape? Yep, URS, you would have been forced to group those two trees as ONE tree because they had the same color combo! That means that it is possible that Part 11 is actually two trees.


Only if the Purple figures would have been just as common on both trees. I would have seperated them as two even if grape was not made if the purples on tree one were still rare.

Hey, man, I'll trust you on that one, no need to argue really, but a quick look at the original data you sent me shows that Part One, Tree Two has 6 rare in Salmon and 6 Uncommon in Salmon. Still, you didn't split that tree in two, so something tells me if it weren't for those 5 Grape figures, those two trees would be one.

-_-

I originally seperated all the trees in a notepad document before adding the info to your Word document layout, and I didn't place any figures as rare or uncommon in that document. I only placed figures as rare or common after consulting you on the numbers. If you look at the #'s of each figure in salmon on that part you will see that there isn't much difference how many there are. It only took one extra figure to bump a sculpt up from rare to uncommon. :( Anyways, this is kind of pointless when considering part 8 trees 1, and 3 cause tree 1 was made in grape. I just looked at the info, and really there aren't any differences in the number of documented purples on each tree. You sure you have them marked right? :(

Well Arforbes keshi string had 2 of each sculpt on the tree resulting in like 12 or 14 figures didn't it? :unsure: Anyways. They could fit 12 different sculpts on a single tree if they didn't double them up.

On what "evidence" are you basing the idea that ALL the trees aren't doubled up on sculpts? Do you really think arforbes' Part 28 (?) tree is an exception? Hell, I just always assumed that all the trees had two of each sculpt. Unless I'm mistaken, this is pretty much standard practice for injection molding.


No it wouldn't exactly be standard. Just as they had some molds with multiples of the same sculpts on each, they could have just as easily and effectively had two exact copies of the same molds of 10 seperate figures. It would have had the same effect as having the figures split into two trees and with double figures. That make sense? I believe that's what they did with some Parts.

All that I've read about injection molding seems to indicate that it is NOT easy and not the most precise method. Balance is key. However, you may be exactly right that it didn't matter how many sculpts were on a tree... but that begs the question: Why have multi-tree at all parts then? Also, there is the fact that on average, trees were kept to 4-5 sculpts -- 12 seems like a pretty big departure.


That probably has to do with packing the figures, and which figures in a part reached the final stage of production first, which would have been the mold used for commercial production.
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#13 Soupie

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 07:57 PM

I just looked at the info, and really there aren't any differences in the number of documented purples on each tree. You sure you have them marked right? -_-

You're right. That tree -- especially since it has the Purple Claw -- should be marked Rare. So it looks like the only difference between those two trees is that the one was used to make Grape.

So, going back to the larger and more important point -- there is even a stronger possibility that other parts have two trees with identical color patterns. In other words, multiple trees masquerading as one single tree.

:(

No it wouldn't exactly be standard. Just as they had some molds with multiples of the same sculpts on each, they could have just as easily and effectively had two exact copies of the same molds of 10 seperate figures. It would have had the same effect as having the figures split into two trees and with double figures. That make sense? I believe that's what they did with some Parts.

It's an interesting idea, but I see no reason to assume that all the trees aren't structured like the one arforbes found, i.e., having two of each sculpt.

That probably has to do with packing the figures, and which figures in a part reached the final stage of production first, which would have been the mold used for commercial production.

:unsure:

What does this have to do with the average number of sculpts per tree/mold?
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#14 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 08:21 PM

What does this have to do with the average number of sculpts per tree/mold?


Sorry, I was just commenting on this question.

Why have multi-tree at all parts then?


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