385 replies to this topic

[el midgetron]

Out of curiousity, was Midge's SHA the first Super Rare figure to be found? I've read that there was another SHA that showed up on eBay around the same time and was won by someone who was apparently not a member of the MUSCLE Preservation Society or AKIA. Has that SHA ever been accounted for?

Yeah, if I remeber correctly that SHA was featured on either the MPS or Nathan's site (I think it was Nathan's, somewhere anyway). At that time it was the only true SR known (but not yet recognized) and was featured along side other "mysterious" m.u.s.c.l.e.s. like the x1 goalie, lightbulb guy and ghost. The original owner who provided that site's owner with the SHA photos and information later listed the figure on eBay and I won it. Then sometime after that, I spotted another SHA in a buy-it-now lot of m.u.c.s.l.e.s which I scooped up before anyone else had the chance. I later sold one to the diabolical Mr. Arforbes, which I think started his SR dyanasty.

[Soupie]

Yeah, if I remeber correctly that SHA was featured on either the MPS or Nathan's site (I think it was Nathan's, somewhere anyway). ... The original owner who provided that site's owner with the SHA photos and information later listed the figure on eBay and I won it. Then sometime after that, I spotted another SHA in a buy-it-now lot of m.u.c.s.l.e.s which I scooped up before anyone else had the chance. I later sold one to the diabolical Mr. Arforbes, which I think started his SR dyanasty.

So you found, bought, and owned not one but two SHA figures! Holy Snakes! I think I know what is going on here...

Exhibit A: Midge purchases ultra-rare (and ultra special, some might say magical, but more on that later) MUSCLE SHA figure.

Exhibit B: Shortly after purchase, Midge locates and purchases ANOTHER ultra-rare MUSCLE SHA.

Exhibit C: "I later sold one to the diabolical Mr. Arforbes..."

Exhibit D: The "one" that Midge inadvertently sold was none other than the ultra-magical MUSCLE SHA that had the uncanny ability of allowing its owner to locate -- some might say attract -- others of its kind.

Exhibit E: When Midge owned this ultra-magical figure, he almost immediately and without any effort whatsoever came to own another super-rare MUSCLE.

Exhibit F: When Midge passed the magical figure on to Arforbes, the power of attracting super-rare MUSCLEs was passed along with it.

Exhibit G: Arforbes insane super-rare MUSCLE collection that he amassed AFTER coming into possession of the magical SHA.

Exhibit H: Since passing the ring figure onto Mr. Frodo Forbes, Midge has not found another ultra-super-rare MUSCLE figure.

Edited by Soupie, 10 January 2008 - 09:55 AM.

[el midgetron]

lol, he stole my mojo.

It could be......they were identical and I didn't keep track of which one I got first.........

[Soupie]

Midge, when you made the transaction with Mr. Forbes, did you experience any dizziness or otherwise feel "unlike yourself?" It's very, very possible that Mr. Forbes performed what is known in certain esoteric circles as control of the mind, aka mind control. If so, I'd advise you-- er, what, hm, dizzy... dizzy feeling...

What was I just saying? It's odd, but I've totally forgotten what I was talking about. Anyway, a PM from Arforbes just popped up on my screen. Gonna read it now. Talk to ya'll later.

[arforbes]

Midge, when you made the transaction with Mr. Forbes, did you experience any dizziness or otherwise feel "unlike yourself?" It's very, very possible that Mr. Forbes performed what is known in certain esoteric circles as control of the mind, aka mind control. If so, I'd advise you-- er, what, hm, dizzy... dizzy feeling...

What was I just saying? It's odd, but I've totally forgotten what I was talking about. Anyway, a PM from Arforbes just popped up on my screen. Gonna read it now. Talk to ya'll later.

HAHAHA!


Or should I say...


MUWAHAHAAHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Edited by arforbes, 12 January 2008 - 08:13 AM.

[el midgetron]

my precious!!! my precious!!!

I think Mr. arforbes should take that SHA to Japan just to see what happens, maybe plant it on the peak of Mt Fuji or something. Who knows what could happen, it might align kinniku-cosmos and make it rain muscles or awaken Godzilla or something.

I may have to read though this thread as I think I have missed hearing about some of the super-rares to surface. Have any others surfaced in Japan since Johnny's magnificent eleven?

[arforbes]

I may have to read though this thread as I think I have missed hearing about some of the super-rares to surface. Have any others surfaced in Japan since Johnny's magnificent eleven?

Only the Ultra Rare Blue trilogy...Robinmask, Buffaloman, and Missleman. You can see them in my signature.

[dankingery]

do we all agree then that satans cross should not be counted among the rares anymore? I mean, every time i look on ebay there's atleast one sc for every 2 auctions i look at..

[jkaris]

do we all agree then that satans cross should not be counted among the rares anymore? I mean, every time i look on ebay there's atleast one sc for every 2 auctions i look at..

Satan Cross is no more rare than any of the other more hard to find sculpts (#195 anyone?). He is however, HUGELY popular, due to his absence from the poster. So he will always command a premium.

[arforbes]

I wanted to add this observation...

Over the years I have had numerous super rares in my possession. Have you guys ever noticed that on regular Muscle sculpts, some of them stand different, have a little more flange (excess plastic) in certain areas, and have differnet dot injection locations on their backs than others? This I am certain is due to the fact that they came off different trees, which means different molds and also probably different factories.

The same holds true for the super rare sculpts. I can tell you from looking at two different SHA figures and have seen it with BHS as well.

I have held in my hands a SHA that originally had the head and sprue coming from his right center hand. I just recently got one that once had the head and sprue coming out from its left center hand. A completely different mold and also different injection points on the back, also the stance was different.

If you all remember, I had 2 BHS figures once and then again not to long ago I had another in my possession for a short while. The BHS was from a different mold than the previous ones I was used to seeing was. It had a slightly different stance and more flange on the raised open hand as well as on the attached center piece. The center hole was also located ever so slighly lower on the figure, I'm talking like a 1/32 of an inch lower because of the different mold it came from. The injection points were also different and some slight differences in the mold itself were noticeable.

So I think these guys, because of the fact that they have been seen in variation from other Super Rares, were originally supposed to be released. That might sway the theory of one factory error or miscommunication to maybe the fact that they stopped production on these guys later on in the line. This may be a more solid theory based on what I have seen first hand handling so many of these guys.

Edited by arforbes, 10 February 2008 - 11:17 AM.

[Soupie]

Great info Arforbes, and congrats on your most recent SR acquisition.

You're right, the fact that BHS and SHA MUSCLEs can be found in two different sculpt variations does seem to weaken the "factory error" theory, i.e., that the factory/factories "accidentally" produced sculpts in MUSCLE plastic that they weren't supposed to. (But I never subscribed to that theory anyhow... heehee.)

However, I'm not sure that two molds = two factories. It's conceivable that one factory had two molds of the same sculpt simply to pump out more figure at a fast pace. (When I worked at Hershey ice cream, we had two machines running everyday. If a certain flavor was in high demand -- vanilla with a chocolate shell -- we would sometimes have both machines running the same pops.)

I do like your thought that perhaps -- since both molds were used -- the "plan" was to produce these sculpts as MUSCLEs. In keeping with the "faulty MUSCLE plastic theory" whatever problems they'd have with one mold, they'd certainly have with the other.

Finally, however, if the family molds were set up with two molds of each sculpt by default, we shouldn't be surprised to see sculpt variations for the Super Rares, i.e., one SHA was on side A of the sculpt, and one was on side B. Theoretically, once they started having problems with the plastic, or problems balancing the molds, perhaps they had to "plug" both SHA chambers.

:shrug:

Edited by Soupie, 10 February 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[dankingery]

I'm guessing the mold injection points were put in by the factory once they were received by the company that created the molds. The cost for a mold like this would be very high, and having different molds with different injection points wouldn't be cost-effective. They could have even had the mold manufacturer put the injection points in where ever they saw fit. And the milling department may not have been given specific points to hit, just told to make sure that each section have an injection point (i.e. head, torso and limbs).

Looking at #154, I can see the points for each section.

[Soupie]

I'm guessing the mold injection points were put in by the factory once they were received by the company that created the molds. The cost for a mold like this would be very high, and having different molds with different injection points wouldn't be cost-effective.

Then how does one account for figures with different injection points?

And the milling department may not have been given specific points to hit, just told to make sure that each section have an injection point (i.e. head, torso and limbs).

Looking at #154, I can see the points for each section.

On the contrary, if we generalize from the mold tree we have, it look like each sculpt chamber only had one injection point.

 KinkeshiTree.JPG   243.27K   20 downloads

[dankingery]

I'm guessing the mold injection points were put in by the factory once they were received by the company that created the molds. The cost for a mold like this would be very high, and having different molds with different injection points wouldn't be cost-effective.

Then how does one account for figures with different injection points?

And the milling department may not have been given specific points to hit, just told to make sure that each section have an injection point (i.e. head, torso and limbs).

Looking at #154, I can see the points for each section.

On the contrary, if we generalize from the mold tree we have, it look like each sculpt chamber only had one injection point.

 KinkeshiTree.JPG   243.27K   20 downloads

it could be that the "tree" part of the mold is there so the tree is easier to take out of the mold. i would think that you'd still need to have injection points on the different sections to make sure that you get complete dispersal.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I would believe that the mold variations are a result of either multiple molds for production, which isn't that far fetched, there were tons more Kinkeshi manufactured than muscles. Plus as you can see with the pic that some molds had 2 of each sculpt on it. I'm sure with the larger figures with multiple parts like BHS and the such would have been arranged differently on the mold. Even SC has variations in his mold.

[arforbes]

I had this idea also floating around in my head for a while now...

What if the so called injection points on the back of each figure are actually not injection points at all but overflow holes. For instance, the plastic had to be flowed in at one location. From looks of the tree I would say that it was started in at the very center of the tree coming in from that slender cone shaped piece at the top and pouring throughout the entier mold and pressurized liquid plastic flowed in. In order to make a figure without any air bubble spots, the plastic would be required to flow completely through the entire mold for some time. These holes in the backs of each figure would allow for air escape and a complet "fill" if you will.

If plastic were injected all over the mold, in at the top and in the backs of each figure at the same time, then the mold would be full of air not allowing any air escape at all. I think these holes on the figures are leak holes.

[Soupie]

I had this idea also floating around in my head for a while now...

What if the so called injection points on the back of each figure are actually not injection points at all but overflow holes. For instance, the plastic had to be flowed in at one location. From looks of the tree I would say that it was started in at the very center of the tree coming in from that slender cone shaped piece at the top and pouring throughout the entier mold and pressurized liquid plastic flowed in. In order to make a figure without any air bubble spots, the plastic would be required to flow completely through the entire mold for some time. These holes in the backs of each figure would allow for air escape and a complet "fill" if you will.

If plastic were injected all over the mold, in at the top and in the backs of each figure at the same time, then the mold would be full of air not allowing any air escape at all. I think these holes on the figures are leak holes.

Well, I'm certainly no expert on injection molding, but I'm pretty sure, from what all I've read and researched that the pic of arforbes tree shows exactly how the liquid plastic fills each sculpt's mold chamber. In other words, there is only one entry point.

I've always noticed the "dots" on the back of MUSCLE figures. I'm 99.9% sure they are not injection points. I've always assumed they were marks left over from little "nubs" carved into each mold that would allow the figures to pop out of the mold once the plastic cured. Arforbes, that's a really good point about air flowage, but I'm pretty certain they have other ways of making sure the molds stay in a vacuum state.

As I said, I'm fairly certain the plastic we see connected to the figures in Arforbes' tree is all the liquid plastic in a cured state. I've done a lot of "internet research" and injection molding of this nature only seems to use one entry point.

Edited by Soupie, 10 February 2008 - 06:16 PM.

[Soupie]

Also, I have hundreds (if not thousands) of plastic figures made via injection molding -- MIMP, Mordles, BEN 10, Galactic Heroes, Ninja Mites, etc. -- and none of them have the little "dots" that MUSCLEs have. Again, I'm thinking the dots were there to allow the figs to pop out of the molds. I swear I've seen similar dots with other injection molded stuffs.

:head scratch:

[Soupie]

There is a very informative entry on Injection Molding over at Wikipedia. I suggest anyone interested in the history of MUSCLE production to check it out.

The Mold

Considerable thought is put into the design of molded parts and their molds, to ensure that the parts will not be trapped in the mold, that the molds can be completely filled before the molten resin solidifies, to compensate for material shrinkage, and to minimize imperfections in the parts.

Mold Design

Molds separate into at least two halves (called the core and the cavity) to permit the part to be extracted. In general the shape of a part must not cause it to be locked into the mold. For example, sides of objects typically cannot be parallel with the direction of draw (the direction in which the core and cavity separate from each other). They are angled slightly (draft), and examination of most plastic household objects will reveal this. Parts that are "bucket-like" tend to shrink onto the core while cooling, and after the cavity is pulled away. Pins are the most popular method of removal from the core, but air ejection, and stripper plates can also be used depending on the application. Most ejection plates are found on the moving half of the tool, but they can be placed on the fixed half.

The ejection "pins" are the likely culprit for the dots on the back of MUSCLEs.

Injection Molding Cycle

The molds are closed shutke the shape of the mold. Some machines are run by electric motors instead of hydraulics or a combination of both. The water-cooling channels that assist in cooling the mold and the heated plastic solidifies into the part. Improper cooling can result in distorted molding or one that is burnt. The cycle is completed when the mold opens and the part is ejected with the assistance of ejector pins within the mold.

The resin, or raw material for injection molding, is usually in pellet or granule form, and is melted by heat and shearing forces shortly before being injected into the mold. Resin pellets are poured into the feed hopper, a large open bottomed container, which feeds the granules down to the screw. The screw is rotated by a motor, feeding pellets up the screw's grooves. The depth of the screw flights decreases towards the end of the screw nearest the mold, compressing the heated plastic. As the screw rotates, the pellets are moved forward in the screw and they undergo extreme pressure and friction which generates most of the heat needed to melt the pellets. Heaters on either side of the screw assist in the heating and temperature control during the melting process.

The channels through which the plastic flows toward the chamber will also solidify, forming an attached frame. This frame is composed of the sprue, which is the main channel from the reservoir of molten resin, parallel with the direction of draw, and runners, which are perpendicular to the direction of draw, and are used to convey molten resin to the gate(s), or point(s) of injection. The sprue and runner system can be cut or twisted off and recycled, sometimes being granulated next to the mold machine. Some molds are designed so that the part is automatically stripped through action of the mold.

Arforbes tree is an amazing example of a hardened sprue, runners, and figures.

I think it's very interesting that sprue and runners can be so easily recycled, as some here have suggested before. Maybe it wouldn't have been too difficult to snip off the MUSCLE sculpts and toss everything else, including non-MUSCLE sculpts and Satan Crosses legs, directly into the recycling bin.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

Yeah, I had always assumed that the dots were where the pins were set to push the figures out of the mold myself.

I was wondering what Alex meant by other injection points. Alot of plastic figurines have these. Also take any action figure apart that has halfs like gi Joes or something. You will see the same pits. The same with Model kits. It's the only practical way of removing hardened plastic that is on the same runner without breaking the runner or any of the parts on them.

[dankingery]

the air holes do make sense. you would need to have a way for the air to escape otherwise they wouldn't fill and just back-pressure into the injection machine. i think i'm always wrong. i'm going to start listening to that leprechaun that keeps telling me to burn things.. he's always right.

[Jamesullivan]

So I was on a airplane flying home, when this pretty lady next to me was reading a magazine. I glanced at the page and asked her if she could refrain from turning the page for a moment. There it was a advertisement for injection molding, showing kits and all. As this stayed on my mind, I explained to her why I was intrigued, told her the story of M.U.S.C.L.E.s then went back to thought. I came to a interesting question...
Perhaps (as a theory) there was a worker, or a worker's son, who had acess to the factory. It may have even been a person who took a tour and was shown the process of creating Little Rubber Guys . Then forseen the ability to make alot of money selling M.U.S.C.L.E.s to collecters of figures they have never seen. There are a number of situations that would relate to ourselves doing this(example:helping mom make cookies, usually results in being able to make your own custom cookie.) That would answer Rares found loose, so why packaged rares? Well simply the enterprising toymaker took this all that one farther step. Planned on these Super Rares showing up at toy fairs and eventually online where they could be purchased. Then when the time was right, would resell them, and all the while looking as innocent as everybody else. Was the release of Ultimate Muscle cartoon the bridge point where the super rares were expected to be sold. Well that would mean the plan was not sucessful, because no one person ever owned them all. So if this was the case it was a attempt to make money that failed.
IT WAS A ATTEMPT TO MAKE MONEY THAT FAILED.
Since I sort of agree with the explanation that these figures were left out due to inappropiate reasons(unsafe small parts, depicting distasteful people in history, etc.) I need to explain something. Wrestling is about physical fitness, sportsmanship, and violence. So normally you have good/bad/middle. Obviously you get rid of the bad keep the good, and sort out the middle. The bad are sculpts that never made it to the factory(my guess would be a ripped, muscled Jesus.) The good are like the "Muscleman" figures. Then you have the middle. Here the selection process starts. Now the figures that were not selected, were not discarded. Simply because adults should be mature enough to accept a Little Rubber Guy for what he is, a toy. So this is where a person figures he can challenge the selection process, sort of like wrestling with the idea of what is good, and what is bad. So without going over the edge, uses the middle un selected as his target. Pretty much he used a 3cubed theory and made as much money as he could. I shall provide a illastration...
 Cubed_theory.jpg   76.39K   15 downloads
Simply put there are three rounds of selection with five outcomes.
Round 1-Ideas are taken and categorized into good middle bad.
Round 2-Bad ideas are removed, good ideas are approved, and middle ideas move on to round three.
Round 3-Bad is no longer available, good is 100% available, middle is broken down into 3 sections. Yep you got it-good, middle, bad(not as bad as the no longer available bad)
1)M.U.S.C.L.E.s taken and manufactured for sale publically consists of good and 4/9s of middle(the middle being the harder to find figuresof the 233 set. Blue
2)M.U.S.C.L.E.s rejected are from bad and not as bad. Red
3)M.U.S.C.L.E taken and manufactured for sale publically after much thought is the middle of the middle(Satan Cross with #234 & #235). Gold
4)M.U.S.C.L.E. accepted and made for private use are the left side 4/9s of middle also known as the Super Rare's. Red+Purple makes blue.
5)M.U.S.C.L.E.s never thought of are future new additions for future series.
Doing some excercising I notice this theory is exceptionally strong in a body with the right form as well. Whether you use Tarzan's body from the cartoon, Eddie from Iron Maiden on the Ed Hunter albumn, or anybody(like myself at 1 time) with large upper parts, small lower part, and average middle parts, it has to be accepted that this body shape is not found on any M.U.S.C.L.E. figure. There are parts, but no complete body with a super small waist, then a larger rib cage, then a enormous chest and lats. Following the same suit with the arms(small wrist, larger middle, enormous shoulders) and legs(small ankles, larger up the leg, enormous quads).
What I am getting at is this is a M.U.S.C.L.E. muscle code. The man missing is this body form, which follows a 3cubed body makeup(if you would). By deducing this I came up with the missing formula.
So either you don't get what I explained, or you think I have solved a genious plan created by the people at Mattel.
My question is IF SOMEONE WHO MADE M.U.S.C.L.E.s LEGALLY IN 1985 WAS TO MAKE NEW M.U.S.C.L.E. (with the rights) WOULD WE CONSIDER EVERY ONE A M.U.S.C.L.E. IF HE STILL USED THIS 3 CUBED THEORY?

[Soupie]

Yeah, that's the polite way to say it.

[Universal Ruler Supreme]

I'm sorry...none of that registered in my brain...Can someone help me understand what was said?