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Scalping? Capitalism? Or good investments?


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#1 Tortle

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 06:59 AM

Okay, gang, after I've flamed Johnny for scalping (even though he has the god-like power to completely obliterate me on the forum... be merciful, Johnny), I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the subject.

Is it keeping the toys from the people who really want them? Is it just pure capitalism, something on which this country is founded? Or, is it helping collectors who don't have the time or resources to go searching endlessly for a toy?

On another note, what about people who buy a variation because they think it will be "worth something"? That's kind of scalping, too. But kind of not.

I think everybody knows my opinion. What do you think of toy scalping?

-Nathan
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#2 Doctor Dew

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 12:21 PM

Is it keeping the toys from the people who really want them?  Is it just pure capitalism, something on which this country is founded?  Or, is it helping collectors who don't have the time or resources to go searching endlessly for a toy?  

On another note, what about people who buy a variation because they think it will be "worth something"?  That's kind of scalping, too.  But kind of not.

scalping, hmm... i must have missed you flaming johnny, too bad for me, but here are my thoughts.
if a person really wants a toy, they will buy it from whoever has it. so i think that in no way is scalping keeping the toy from someone who REALLY wants it, because that person will do/pay anything to obtain it. and to me, that is just smart business. you have a product that you know people will want and you agree to give it to them with a healthy profit margin for yourself. that's totally cool. (but only if we are talking about things like toys or Lakers tickets or something. what i don't think is cool is when third world dictators extort money from the citizens by hoarding all the food or oil or whatever. but i think that is another isssue...)
as for toys, if i was a big collector who had the cash, i would love to find someone who had all of those hard to find pieces i was missing for my collection. then it would be up to me to decide if the time/effort/money i would spend finding those pieces on my own is worth enough to pay the inflated scalper price. but the scalper is taking a gamble (and an even bigger one when they buy "variations") because who is to say how long the wave of interest for that toy willl last? so it seems to be a matter of timing, demand, and location (in a sense). which from my limited business knowledge, seems to be a big part of capitalism and trading goods etc. plastic toys for pieces of paper with big numbers on them....
and yeah i would call buying "variations" a gamble, but not scalping...

for me, i collected Muscles when i was younger for 2 basic reasons:
1) i thought they were cool and i liked wrestling with them
2) they were cheap to buy and lasted longer than candy
now i am collecting Muscles again and it is still for 2 basic reasons:
1) i think they are cool and i appreciate the detail and uniqueness of each figure
2) i think they will make cool decorations in my own home

so some things never change and others do. but i think if i was doing this for profit, i wouldn't have a very good business. i'd sell everything so cheap because i would want everyone to experience the joy i have.

whew! now i'm done... :lol:
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#3 Tortle

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 12:50 PM

Those are all good points. But I would like to point out that a scalper is not taking a gamble, as he can just return the toys to the store from which he bought them (given he thought far enough ahead to keep the receipt).

Maybe you're right. I mean, people will shell out the money if the toy is worth it to them. I do acknowledge that scalpers would not exist if there weren't collectors out there willing to pay their prices.

But it definitely gives me the red arse when I'm looking for the new Chewie figure, and see a scalper (who invariably looks like the comic shop owner from the Simpsons) walking out the door with ALL the Chewies. EVERY FRIGGIN' ONE. Then, in order to get the figure, I have to pay their scalping prices of $12 instead of the normal price of $6.

But again, you're right. The toy isn't worth that much to me, so I just don't get the figure.

But then again, what about the Tickle Me Elmo fiasco a few years back? Basically, scalpers bought a bunch of the dolls, and sold them for an incredible mark-up. So, people who couldn't afford to pay multiple hundreds of dollars for Elmo had no chance of getting one for their kid for Christmas. Under normal circumstances, they could wait in line before the store opened when that store got a shipment. But since the scalpers buy as many as they can even though they don't need them, most of the normal shmoes in line (and their kids) are SOL. That just sucks nuts.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

-Nathan
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#4 jkaris

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 01:34 PM

I am 100% capatalist at heart and in practice, but I do think that there are some HUGE abuses in the toy industry. Mainly because there are no set rules, as there are in big business. Everything is regulated by supply and demand. This being so, some rather unscrupulous folks can cause an artificial supply shortage (i.e. walking out with every Chewie in the store).

I personally find this despicable. But there is a HUGE difference between creating a shortage and taking advantage of a shortage that already exists. But the main problem is that when there is a shortage/high demand on an item, real or imagined, people have a tendency to hoard items to try to make a buck. Now this in itself is just simple entrepeneurialism, but when done en-mass it screws up the chances of a normal guy gettig something for a decent price.

For example Storm Jet from RID (the red and white version) He was a short run item, and he was also popular due to the relation to Jetfire (G1). His shelf price was $13.99 or so, but since he only came 1 to a box, he was regularly going on eBay for $40-$60. Even now. I just happened to swoop one up for $22 plus $6 shipping (from Australia. Is that you MISCHA? Hehe) But the bummer is that I probably won't open him now because of the investment. (I would open him, but I have the Beast Wars blue/gold version open to play with already).

This problem as well as most similar problems can be blamed on the toy companies. They will purposely short and item or two in a line, or produce crappy variations, to hype up the toyline and increase sales. Now this is slick marketing, and is good business, but the bad part is that they REALLY do short the line on these items. If they were just trying to hype and item they could fake a short run, and then toward the middle/end release them as a regular numbered run.

What I don't understand is, Why don't they just short them and charge a premium price from the manufacturer? Hyping up a popular product with a short run will guarantee a sold out run most of the time, but this doen't really help the manufacturer, other than the masses buying every freakin variation of other figures to try to hawk on eBay. They would make more cash just selling them at a premium because of the scarcity, because the manufacturer makes $0 on the secondary market.

But as far as someone artificially creating a supply shortage by buying every single one they can find, it is very bad ethics. And people who have bad business ethics don't stay in business too long (except maybe on eBay). The downside to hoarding a new line (or maybe it's just poetic justice) is that if the manufacturer releases a regular run of a shorted item, then it is nearly impossible to sell your stuff for even for retail, and then you lose money.

But in the end it all comes down to supply and demand. The capatalist system is a GREAT system in practice, but there are many abuses that go on. Eventually they will correct themselves, but I do agree with Nate, in that the damage genarally has already been done. Look at ENRON and MCI.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. When I collect, I collect things I like. Hot Wheels are a HOT commodity, but I have no interest in them and so I don't buy any. MUSCLE's I love and have a ton! I make a nice percentage on filling want lists, but the extra money I make on my transactions can best be attributed to the fact that people can email me and get nearly all they need with one transaction. That is the service I provide. It also helps to buy M.U.S.C.L.E.s in bulk to keep my average per M.U.S.C.L.E. price low.

Either way, I don't believe the supply and demand situation can be applied to M.U.S.C.L.E.s (except maybe the Rares) because for now at least, the supply WAY OUTWEIGHS the demand.


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#5 Tortle

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 02:26 PM

Storm Jet from RID (the red and white version) He was a short run item, and he was also popular due to the relation to Jetfire (G1).

Storm Jet was short-run?! That's insane! One of the few toys from that crap line that's worth a damn...

They will purposely short and item or two in a line, or produce crappy variations, to hype up the toyline and increase sales.


Usually, I think that toy companies (that are geared for kids, that is) will short-run an item because they simply don't think that it will sell. For example, in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles line, April O'Neil was short-run because she didn't sell as well as other figures like the Turtles or Shredder.

With toy lines geared more for collectors, I think what you're saying definitely applies. Who would have given a crap about Sio Bibble from Star Wars Ep. 1 if he wasn't so short-packed? But since he was, Hasbro virtually guaranteed the sale of the figure.

Anyway, back to the debate... Maybe I just get too worked up about scalping. It's not nearly as bad nowadays as it was back in the early days of Star Wars: Power of the Force 2. I guess I just have pent-up angst about collecting conditions back then. Scalpers got to everything, and I had to wait months after the release of the figures to see anything new. Except of course, Han Hoth. He was EVERYWHERE. What a piece of crap he was!

-Nathan

P.S. I like how the system censored me when I wrote "arse". I think I'll go have fun in the test area with some profanity...
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#6 Ridureyu

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 03:18 PM

It goes both ways, really- in most cases, "Scalping" is incredibly extreme,. and annoying. however, just making a proifit is NOT bad. It all depends on what extreme you go to.
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#7 jkaris

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 06:27 PM

Okay, gang, after I've flamed Johnny for scalping (even though he has the god-like power to completely obliterate me on the forum... be merciful, Johnny), I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the subject.

Shoot, that heat was minor compared to some of the stuff Chris O and Lestat wrote way back when (Ahh the good old days)

Is it keeping the toys from the people who really want them? Is it just pure capitalism, something on which this country is founded? Or, is it helping collectors who don't have the time or resources to go searching endlessly for a toy?



It can be all three.
If you go to the store at the beginning of the product cycle and buy every single one to hawk at an inflated price on eBay or at your toy store then it is keeping toys from the ones who really want them.

If you go to the store during the middle of the product cycle and buy every single one to hawk at an inflated price on eBay then it helping collectors who don't have the time/resources to scour the toy stores looking for the item.

If you go to the store at the end of the product cycle and buy every single one to save for later or hawk at an inflated price on eBay or at your toy store then it is pure unbridled capitalism.


On another note, what about people who buy a variation because they think it will be "worth something"? That's kind of scalping, too. But kind of not.

Kind of not. It is what alot of people do lately with Star Wars figures. Buying a few to hold on to for a while is a good investment.
Buying a few at retail, when the going rate on eBay is twice retail, is a quick buck.
Buying a TON of them to try to resell is stupid, unless you are going to hang onto them for a LONG time (10 years or so.)

I think everybody knows my opinion. What do you think of toy scalping?

-Nathan


I think scalping SUCKS. But my definition of scalping is someone who tries to create an artificial supply shortage by hoarding paticular items. Ebay has remedied this to some point, as people who go to KB or TRU and see the item back in stock at retail, will not pay the inflated price on eBay, and thus the demand goes down, forcing the ebay prices to go down also. Until the stores are out again and the price roller coaster takes effect again.
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#8 Tortle

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 08:45 PM

I thought that Rebelscum.com put it perfectly (although it's Star Wars-centric, I think it applies to all toy collecting):


The Collect To Collect Code Of Honor

Collect to Collect is a program started by Mr. Philip Wise to promote the hobby of Star Wars collecting. The principles behind the Collect to Collect credo are two-fold: aid your fellow Star Wars enthusiast and discourage those who collect strictly for the sake of profit. Collect to Collect means doing your best to observe the following collecting etiquette:

- Buy only what you need and make sure others get one before you get many.

- Acquire pieces for your collection because you want them, not because you plan to profit from them.

- Help others achieve their collecting goals for the sake of the hobby, not profit.

- When you trade or sell available toys, do so at cost.

- When you trade or sell unavailable toys, do so keeping the golden rule in mind: you'll always win in the long run if you don't take advantage of people.

- Buy from scalpers as a very last resort. They exist because people buy from them and do not make collecting toys easier. Scalping only promotes decay within the hobby.

- Understand it is more important for a kid to have the toys than you; help them out whenever possible. You're likely to get another chance at the toy, he/she may not.

Collecting Star Wars toys means different things to different people. For some it may be one of each Star Wars action figure to play with, for others it may be two of each package and figure variation in the world. Either way, it's up to you. You don't have to agree with the collecting goals of others, but you should respect them.

What is "scalping"?
Toy scalping is an often misunderstood term within collecting. The simplest definition of scalping is:

Somebody who buys currently available toys from any source other than an authorized toy distributor or manufacturer, to sell at a profit.

Scalping is not about money or price. Scalping is about limiting the availability of toys, which in turn makes it both difficult and frustrating for collectors to complete their collections. Below are a few examples to make it easier to grasp the "scalping" concept:

Joe goes to Wal-Mart and buys five desirable figures for later resale at the local flea market where he charges $10.00 each. Joe is a scalper. Avoid Joe. The results of his actions means less desirable toys at the store, frustrated toy buyers and higher prices for everybody. The trickle down effect is enormous, even affecting how stores purchase the toys and Hasbro's distribution decisions.

Wal-Mart and FAO Schwarz both buy from Hasbro directly. Wal-Mart sells figures for $5.76 or less, and FAO Schwarz typically sells them for about $9.99. While FAO sells figures at a substantially higher price, neither of these companies is scalping. Neither company is making it more difficult for collectors to complete their collections by taking toys from the hands of a kid or a collector solely for the purpose of making a quick buck off of a potential buyer.

George, a collector, goes to Wal-Mart and buys two Biker Scouts: one for himself and an extra to sell to a dealer at a toy show. George is a scalper. He not only bought a toy he didn't need (a toy the next collector won't be finding on the shelf), but become a supplier to a scalper.

Ben, another collector, walked into his local Toys 'R' Us and bought three orange-carded C-3PO. He opened two for his diorama and kept the third in package. Two years later Ben decided to sell that third packaged trooper to a friend for $15.00. Is Ben scalping? No, and only because after two years that C-3PO is no longer available on store shelves. True, Ben did buy too many figures and made it difficult for another collector to waltz into that same TRU to buy a C-3PO. Bad form. His action did not help the collecting community at large. He is not branded a scalper, however, because he did not set out to buy an available toy then turn around to sell it at a profit.

If you fit within the above definition of scalping and you aren't happy, or disagree, with our position on this, we have just one thing to say: we don't argue your right to scalp. We do, in the interest of our hobby, have every right to attempt to prevent you from being successful doing it.

Discouraging scalping and being an active member in the Collect to Collect community is not easy, particularly if you are in an area where new toys are difficult to find. Observing the Collect to Collect methodology will, however, help keep the hobby healthy and enjoyable.

The eBay Equation:
Are eBay auctions a form of scalping? Some are, yes. Not all auctions can be considered scalping, however. Auctioning vintage toys is not scalping. Auctioning a prototype is not scalping. Auctioning any item not currently available in a store is not scalping. Auctioning the Stormtrooper you bought yesterday at K-Mart is scalping.

See the trend? The key is to remember that scalping is not about price - scalping is about availability. The auction for the vintage 12-back Ben Kenobi doesn't stop anyone from walking into a store and finding the latest figure.

Got What It Takes?
If you are a webmaster whose collecting ideals run concurrent with the Collect to Collect credo and would like to show your support by displaying a Rebelscum.com "Collect to Collect" Badge Of Honor, please write in with your page URL. It is our goal to spread this initiative as far across the web as possible - it's a great way to actively support the collecting community.
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#9 jkaris

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:47 AM

Well written article.
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#10 Adamantiumwulf

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 10:40 AM

Scalpers exist where there is a high demand for something that should be some what easily accessible. (toys, tickets to a sporting event or concert).

They are there because there are some yahoos who will pay an outrageous price for what the scalpers have.

Can a toy company be a scalper on some scale? I would say yes. Look at Hasbro with some of the re-release figures of g1 transformers. $40 bucks a pop for an Optimus prime figure. As well as 30 bucks for the RID forms of prime and Ultra magnus.

They charge that much because they know that people will pay for it.

If they are getting figures that are brand new and trying to sell them at a higher price then they are in it for the short run. Every toy craze ends. Bide your time and wait.

You will find them in the store some time and if not ebay is a great place to look. Isn't it a awesome that you can decide what your limit is for something?

The best thing is if there is a particular figure that some in the group is looking for let us know. I am sure that we will help look for it and not price gouge someone.

What is rare in town or state may be very common in another.

Hey we are all collectors and we all like to help our fellow collectors where we can.

I cant remember which member it is that says this but it seems to sum things up.

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#11 theCrazyest

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 12:51 PM

People who horde toys just to sell them at a high price aren't cool in my book! It's different if the toy is limited or low in production #s but when some MF goes into a toyStore and scoops all the figures from a certain toyLine up just to.. then they're bastiches! :angry: Sadly they've exsisted since the dawn of desires and they'll exsist when roosterRoaches rule the Earth..

Anything is only worth what you believe it's worth, no more no less! No one can force your hand to pay for that something you've been searching for the last ...yrs. It's all about desire. :blink:
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#12 RubzOne

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:29 PM

I cant remember which member it is that says this but it seems to sum things up.

Do good guys

Hah... "Do good guys" was coined by Mischa the OZ MUSCLEhead
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#13 DoctorKent

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Posted 01 August 2002 - 07:48 AM

Scalping...what I've found is that most of the traditional "flea market" scalpers got KILLED (and I loved every minute of it) on Star Wars EP I. As someone else had said, we have a new breed who picks up extra figs (vehicles even) and just throws them right up on eBay. My major problem with scalping (in addition to the most mentioned point, me not being able to get the toys I want) is that it creates fake sales numbers. The immense scalping on the early POTF 2 figures threw off all of the future assortments.
The TRU has three hundred Rancor Keeper figures and underorders the next assortments. I remember that the first figure I NEVER saw inside a regular toy store from the time I could go to the store myself was Malebolgia from Spawn. There were whole assortments (Expanded Universe Star Wars, I'm looking at you) that I never saw in a store. And then they would get cases upon cases of them when it was clearance time! Figures that people would have bought tons of for regular prices on clearance. I quit Star Wars from all of the exclusives and short packing.
Side note - I went into WalMart last week and there was a cart full of orange card Leia, Hand, Lando, some Lukes and other random figures. Apparantly they fired the department head of toys and they had been hoarding this stuff in the back for the last few years!

There is an incredibly simple way to beat a scalper - when you see him with a cart full of stuff - pick his pockets and steal his car. Just kidding. There's no real way to win...as long as the toy distribution system works the way it does, there will always be scalping. Remember this...the best way to beat them is to find the ones they don't. With enough persistence, and going to the store at off times, you can find any item. Except the Crashed Snowspeeder at WalMart, scalpy bought them all before I got there.

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#14 Tortle

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Posted 01 August 2002 - 08:15 AM

There is an incredibly simple way to beat a scalper - when you see him with a cart full of stuff - pick his pockets and steal his car.



I'm all for that! :angry:

But seriously, the best way to defeat a scalper is to NEVER buy from them. The whole reason they're scalping is that there are moron collectors out there who think that a mass-produced toy is somehow rare and that they'll never see it in the stores. So they think they have to buy from the scalpers or they'll never get it.

The truth is, if the collectors are patient, the vast majority of these toys will be available in the stores eventually. If not, the toys will be available on Ebay for dirt-cheap prices. Once people get bored of the collectible nature of the toy, plenty of great deals can be had. Patience!

-Nathan
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#15 arforbes

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Posted 01 August 2002 - 09:51 AM

I think Nathan's right.

If I ever see a toy that is outrageously priced from the beginning, I just click "Back" on my Internet Explorer toolbar. A lot of us get so exited that we actually found the item that we bid anyways and do anything to win the item, when in fact, if we had waited, it would have shown up again for a more reasonable price. I've done it, especially when I first began collecting. God, I was nuts. Now I'm like, eff that if I see a scalper selling a toy for a crazy , ridiculous price! :rolleyes:

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#16 Doctor Dew

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Posted 01 August 2002 - 10:57 AM

There is an incredibly simple way to beat a scalper - when you see him with a cart full of stuff - pick his pockets and steal his car. Just kidding. There's no real way to win...

That actually made me think of something that my brother and I used to joke about. If you see "Scalpy" with a cart full of Chewie figures or a cart full of Bowling Barbie (whatever floats your boat) why not just pick up one of the figures from their cart??? Seriously, there is nothing illegal about it. They don't own jack. And if you walk away quickly, are they really going to leave their cart full of figures to get your one figure? I doubt it. But if they do, you can (I saw this in a movie) have your buddies waiting so that when he chases you, they move in and grab the toys. This is all very legit.
I think it would definitly help you not get "the red arse".

But I have also noticed that some stores like Target or whatever have a sign saying that they have the right to limit the number of figures bought at one time.... which could help a little, but would be very easy to get around.
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#17 RubzOne

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Posted 02 August 2002 - 06:19 PM

OMFG OMFG Look at all the F!#$!$ING scalpers:

http://search.ebay.c...y=rodimus major

I just got mine from TRU for 19.99+tax! And there were 5 left! Scroll down and look at the arse trying to sell one for $55.00!!! :p

;) I'm going blind with anger
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#18 RubzOne

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Posted 02 August 2002 - 06:22 PM

Ok I just sent that $55 guy this email:

"You should be ashamed of yourself... Prime frowns upon you."
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#19 Tortle

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Posted 02 August 2002 - 09:10 PM

Notice that most of those aren't going for much more than $20. However, all these sellers are scalping bung-lickers, so I whole-heartedly support any sort of flaming that you deem fit. ;)

That donkey who's trying to sell the Primes for $55 is going to be eating the cost of posting that auction. Scalpers are pretty pinheaded to begin with, but putting a $55 starting bid on this is BEYOND pinheaded. And, I'd like to add that he didn't even include a picture. How can you expect to sell anything without a picture on Ebay, especially if you're butt-scalping it?!

Well, I suppose if he was intelligent, he'd have a real job instead of scalping toys for a few extra bucks.

-Nathan
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#20 jkaris

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Posted 04 August 2002 - 09:50 PM

Glad I preordered mine!
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#21 RubzOne

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 06:37 PM

To whomever cares, the Rodimus Major scalper is back... with new and LOWER prices lol

http://cgi.ebay.com/...item=1756346694

Nifty, he dropped it from $55 to $30... THANKS GUY!!! I hope he has 30 of these cluttering up his living room while his wife is busy kicking him in the shin and his cat uses them as scratching posts.
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#22 Doctor Dew

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 10:48 PM

You should write him again and say: "Prime still frowns upon you."
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