127 replies to this topic

[MIWP]

I am not gay but chose to do some funny things when I was a little kid.
I was influenced by an older kid when I was 5 or 6 yrs old to do gay stuff and was not forced. As I got older I chose to be with girls. I like girls alot still to this day. Guys dont do it for me, I cannot imagine kissing or really even liking another guy sexually. Was I born gay but chose to be straight? Was I born straight and chose to be gay and now I choose to be straight? Why does my cat watch me have sex with my girlfriend?

[jkaris]

You have it backwards Veers, you dictate what environment you would like to create for yourself, and based on those decisions, you do what ever necessary to create that environment.

Do I want to go to work every day? No, but I like the money it brings me and the effects of having that cash, so I make that choice. And so I do things that I do not care to do, in order to create or maintain that environment.

There are things that are genetic, and apply to all species (here's your reply Toyman) in order to propagate the species, sich as eat, sleep, breathe, mate, etc. These are core requirements, that we as humans have the mental ability to over ride, whereas an animal doesn't have the ability to over ride his instincts. They can be trained however to over ride those instincts by pitting one instinct againt the other, i.e. fear of punishment.

People on the other hand have the abilitiy to go against their natural desires, and can train themselves to over ride conscience and instinct. Are pedophiles born that way Veers? What about someone who likes to eff a dog?
The same goes for homosexuals. It is an aquired taste, for whatever reason. It is a perversion of you basic sexual instincts. Just like oral sex, anal sex or masturbation. They are not basic instincts, but rather something that people learn are pleasureable and decide to do.

No one is BORN homosexual, they become homosexual because they DECIDE to become homosexual, for whatever reason. And they can decide to become heterosexual too, regardless of what some psychologist wrote.

Those articles are incorrect. Homosexuality IS a sexual preference, just like anything else. How can I say this? I see the proof every day. I have 2 neighbors that used to be homosexual, and are now hetero. I have many other friends who have switched also. I also know a few people that have switched from total straight to total queer.

It's a choice Veers, regardless of how many "studies" are made, real life examples PROVE that it is a "choice"

[ToyMan]

how long did it take you to get your master's degrees in sociology and psychology?

What have I said about sociology? I've only spoken from my psychology background. Even though I/O deals with attitudes, group processes, social learning, social cognition, and self-perception which are all part of sociology.

PM if you want to get personal.

dude, simmer. what made you think i was talking to you?

[jkaris]

But your “real life” examples are anecdotal. Those studies are based on much larger numbers.

Also read them carefully, they say there can be multiple factors.

No, my real life examples are real life.
Okay, so I know roughly 1000 people.
About 2%-3% are or were homosexual.
About half of them have switched sometime in their life, a "choice" made by them.
Why so large a percentage? Is it because I live in California? (hahaha)

I agree that environmental factors can impress certain ways upon people, but in all reality, it is still a CHOICE to succumb to those influences or to be independant of them.

Tske MIWP'd example for instance. he had influences when he was younger. Did that make him turn homosexual? No, he CHOSE not to be.

There are multiple factors that lead to pedophilia and beastiality, does that mean they can't help it? No, it doesn't.

The human sex drive is a powerful thing, we are driven to have sex, by our biology. But we decide to alter the natural desire for sex with a person of the opposite gender to become what it is today.

Sexual preference is a choice. We have natural desires and we have "altered" desires.

[Rokk]

Rokk why don’t you think there will be gay marriages, and why shouldn’t foreign marriage licenses be honored?

Could the second part open up a whole different can of worms (i.e., foreign wills, foreign driver’s licenses, etc.)?

I don't think America will honor foreign marraige licenses because it would open up a huge legal can of worms. You would have a problem with people from America leaving the country and getting married and then moving back to America. As you properly pointed out, it would also create a slippery slope that could lead to the passing of laws allowing foreign wills, driver's licenses, etc. to be honored in America.

It is very tough legally to start honoring other countries actions that are illegal in our country. It is more trouble than it would be worth.

As far as homosexuality being a choice or not, that is a tough question. I don't think that anyone can definately prove either side. Personally, I believe people are born homosexuals. Mainly, because I'm not too sure why someone would want to be part of a group that is made fun of, attacked and beaten up and generally discriminated against. I know I wouldn't want to willingly join that kind of group. Also, I never made a choice to be straight. I was born that way. For as long as I can remember I was attracted to females. Never did I think about men and my family had homosexual friends so it isn't like I didn't know they existed. I just naturally liked women, kind of the way homosexuals naturally like guys.

[jkaris]

Mainly, because I'm not too sure why someone would want to be part of a group that is made fun of, attacked and beaten up and generally discriminated against.

Hey now, you chose to be a lawyer, didn't you?

[ToyMan]

what a bunch of opinionated bullsh¡t.

[Rokk]

Are you suggesting that homosexuality is a choice rather then genetic?

Everything is a choice. Whether we choose to make it or not is an entirely different matter.

Not everything is a choice. I didn't choose to be born white. I didn't choose to be an Italian-American. I didn't choose to be a male. I didn't choose my brown hair. I didn't choose my brown eyes. I didn't choose that I'm 5' 11". I didn't choose my high metabolism that enables me to not be fat despite what I eat. I was just born that way. I was also born straight. Others aren't. Being straight was never a choice for me.

[jkaris]

what a bunch of opinionated bullsh¡t.

Ditto

[Rokk]

Mainly, because I'm not too sure why someone would want to be part of a group that is made fun of, attacked and beaten up and generally discriminated against.

Hey now, you chose to be a lawyer, didn't you?

That was friggin' hilarious!!!! Good one, Johnny!

[ToyMan]

As far as homosexuality being a choice or not, that is a tough question. I don't think that anyone can definately prove either side.

thank you.

throughout this thread i've watched people hang themselves with their commitments to information that may or may not have been served to them by people with an alterior motive.

it's good to see that there are people here who realize how little we know.

[mimoman]

Wrong, everything is not a choice. Take a look at ANY social psychology. You may believe that your life is completely controlled by you, and for the most part that is true, but the environment affects you much more than people want to admit. And that is not to say homosexuality is a result of your up bringing, or strictly environment.

My dear Veers, you either didn't read my whole post or you didn't understand it.

Everything is NOT guarenteed to be a choice. That we can agree on, but on different levels.

Everything CAN BE a choice because we are looking at it without time and space. You are gay now. You chose to be this way, NOW. You can be different NOW. But in saying all this we are assuming that because someone is gay NOW, that it has always been this way and it exists despite external circumstances.

If we were to widdle down the word GAY to mean something everyone agrees on, it would be a very petty and inaccurate word.

I know that life exists as to create in us a certain mechanical way of thinking, a way to compare things.

You are either gay or you are straight. You either believe in God or science. This formatory thinking is quite useless.

I think if we are all honest with ourselves, EVERY SINGLE action between people involving more than one person has a degree of sexuality to it. The problem is sexuality can mean a lot of different things.

Some homosexuals may have had no choice in the matter, but that is because somewhere along the line they sacrificed their chance to choose. Things happen, people live their whole lives believing they are in control, when in fact they merely react to stimuli. Some people can realize this to varying degrees. They can scrounge up the pseudo will in their lives and use it. Or they can continue to delude themselves, to dream.

I think if anyone knew the truth about how little choice is actually left in their lives, they would begin to kick and scream, to violently resist due to ego, self will and self righteousness. But this discussion is getting out of the scope of ordinary "man".

.......Now, to speak normally.

People can use genetics to give up power they never had in the first place.

"Its okay, look at my family. They are all fat. And they live long lives, therefore if I eat this piece of cake to feel better I wont be doing anything wrong."

Being gay is neither wrong, nor is it in the genes. It is something that happens, like how I happen to enjoy reading and collecting muscles, and it will happen to rain tommorrow. It is an acquired taste, and we can moan and bee-eye-itch about how some didnt ask for it, or just accept it. There is your choice.

[jkaris]

Not everything is a choice. I was also born straight. Others aren't. Being straight was never a choice for me.

I agree. Humans are made up of genetic blueprint where we get alot of our starting preferences from. And when you find that those behaviors/preferences have been altered, it is always a matter of choice.

And Toyman, this is a friendly debate, as should be all serious debates on this board. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean you can get all pissed and what not. Debate it. If you think your point is correct and the others are wrong, then debate it. And give reasons to support your argument.

[Rokk]

As far as homosexuality being a choice or not, that is a tough question.  I don't think that anyone can definately prove either side.

thank you.

throughout this thread i've watched people hang themselves with their commitments to information that may or may not have been served to them by people with an alterior motive.

it's good to see that there are people here who realize how little we know.

If there is one thing I'm good at it would be realizing that I know very little about anything!

[mimoman]

Mainly, because I'm not too sure why someone would want to be part of a group that is made fun of, attacked and beaten up and generally discriminated against.

Hey now, you chose to be a lawyer, didn't you?

Hey, my dad is a lawyer


Wait, that just makes it funnier

[Adamantiumwulf]

HOw do you have a control group to use when studying homosexuality. A heterosexual woudln't work would it?

Toyman Comon sense is a wonderful thing it can open open many doors and help you see through a lot of the crud out there.

Look at it at a really basic level. What do being homosexual or hetrosexual do for the species? Homo does nothing but waste lives. hetro Brings in the next generation. Which one is counter productive?

If gay people can't choose to become straight then stright people can't choose to become gay right?

[ToyMan]

And Toyman, this is a friendly debate, as should be all serious debates on this board. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean you can get all pissed and what not. Debate it. If you think your point is correct and the others are wrong, then debate it. And give reasons to support your argument.

i'm sorry, i didn't know that being bothered by ignorance was against the rules.

to summarize: none of you know what you're talking about, and that includes me.

[mimoman]

And Toyman, this is a friendly debate, as should be all serious debates on this board. Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean you can get all pissed and what not. Debate it. If you think your point is correct and the others are wrong, then debate it. And give reasons to support your argument.

i'm sorry, i didn't know that being bothered by ignorance was against the rules.

to summarize: none of you know what you're talking about, and that includes me.

Thanks, Toyman. It feels better to know this runs across others' foreheads.

This happened to me in the evolution thread.

I got tired of listening to "facts" I had no reason to accept.

But what does that tell about ourselves? And what does it mean to the possibility of knowing a thing?

[Beligerant1]

Those articles are incorrect. Homosexuality IS a sexual preference, just like anything else. How can I say this? I see the proof every day. I have 2 neighbors that used to be homosexual, and are now hetero. I have many other friends who have switched also. I also know a few people that have switched from total straight to total queer.

It's a choice Veers, regardless of how many "studies" are made, real life examples PROVE that it is a "choice"

The mistake you are making johnny is that just because someone changes their outside behavior doesnt mean that they no longer experience the emotions and desires to be homosexual. The points about choice that everyone is arguing about are really not the point. Yes a gay man can choose at any time to have sex with a woman instead, I can choose to cut off my arm if i am trapped on a mountain, even though we both have the ability to do those things it is not to say we WANT to.
So the real question here is: Is one a homosexual because they have sex with the same gender, or is one a homosexual because they desire sex and are attracted to the same gender. I believe it is the second description. Just because i have one arm now doesnt mean i didnt want the arm, or wasnt born with it. By the way i still have two arms, that was hypothetical.

Also this debate has a lot to do with nature vs. nurture, basically I believe that both are an influence. The way i see it, genetically someone may be prone to homosexuality if certain environmental triggers occur. The triggers could be a physical factor in the environment, possibly overexposure to certain hormones during gestation (I believe i read a study that linked homosexuality to higher levels of a certain hormone, cant remember which), or possibly social, forgive me if i cant think of an example. But my point is that homosexuality and any other human behavior that you would like to debate, is much more complex than choice and many factors are to be considered.

[jkaris]

i'm sorry, i didn't know that being bothered by ignorance was against the rules.

to summarize: none of you know what you're talking about, and that includes me.

Hahah, good one.

You claimed to be bothered by ignorance, but in the same statement, you claim to not know what you are talking about.

How can you know that a position is ignorant if you do not know what you are talking about? Hahahaha.

You, by saying that the position that "homosexuality is choice and not genetic" is ignorant, infers that you have evidence otherwise, and thus DO know something.
So to say that no one knows is contradictory.

But to make a long story short, people DO know things. And to claim that people do not, including yourself, is contradictory and incorrect.

And to answer your first question, No, being bothered by a statement isn't "against the rules" but replying in a "hostile" manner is.


You seem to be upset by peole who claim to know something by their life experiences. Are you so sure that "no one" knows anything, or can be certain of anything?

[Beligerant1]

Look at it at a really basic level. What do being homosexual or hetrosexual do for the species? Homo does nothing but waste lives. hetro Brings in the next generation. Which one is counter productive?

If gay people can't choose to become straight then stright people can't choose to become gay right?

Thats a little too basic, what about homosexual couples that adopt children, what about the jobs that homosexuals have that contribute to society, I guarantee you there are queer lawyers, doctors, nurses, paramedics, architects, and on and on. And what about lesbians, they bring me a great deal of pleasure when i get to see two of them together, haha, thats a pretty good contribution to the species. Just because someone doesnt propagate doesnt mean they dont ensure the survival of the species. Look at ants and bees, there are thousands of soldiers and workers of which none can reproduce, you gonna tell me that they serve no evolutionary purpose for their species?

[TheOrgg]

To say one thing first: I don't care, and I'll take a step back from all of that legal junk that I simply don't know anything about. I've not had any problems with gays or lesbians except for one, and he was an idiot who kept flirting with me even though I told him I wasn't gay.


That being said, is there anyone on this board who actually is Gay or Bisexual?

I'd like to hear their opinions and belifs on this subject... doesn't that make more sense than a bunch of "Breeders" talking about it?

C'mon, all of you unit Jockies and Lizzards! Tell us what you think!

(insert smile here that conveys a faciciousness to the former part of the statement, but a seriousness to the latter one)

[jkaris]

So the real question here is: Is one a homosexual because they have sex with the same gender, or is one a homosexual because they desire sex and are attracted to the same gender. I believe it is the second description.

Also this debate has a lot to do with nature vs. nurture, basically I believe that both are an influence. The way i see it, genetically someone may be prone to homosexuality if certain environmental triggers occur. The triggers could be a physical factor in the environment, possibly overexposure to certain hormones during gestation (I believe i read a study that linked homosexuality to higher levels of a certain hormone, cant remember which), or possibly social, forgive me if i cant think of an example. But my point is that homosexuality and any other human behavior that you would like to debate, is much more complex than choice and many factors are to be considered.

Nice take Beligerant!

To counter that, I would say this:

Having internal emotions doesn't make one homosexual any more than wanting to kill someone make one a murderer.

And I have a question about that study...
How would they know if homosexual males were exposed to higher levels of hormones during gestation? Did they do a 20 year study of men from conception to adulthood? Measuring all the chemicals en-utero and then watching the resulting lifestyles?
Or are they basing that on chemicals currently in the systems of homosexual males, which could quite possibly be generated by behavior.

A good example of homosexuality being behavioral and not genetic is this:

Look at the increase in homosexuality today, there are larger numbers of homosexuals out there. Is it because people can safely "come out of the closet"? A small portion I agree, but it also encourages people to act that way, as it is quick becoming the social norm. You need look no further than ancient Greece or ancient Rome, where those cultures were full of homosexuality. It was the accepted thing. Were they genetically predisposed for homosexuality? Or was it a social, behavioral thing.

Even the studies that Veers quotred admitted that it is most likely social and environmental circumstances, making it an aquired trait.

My whole argument is that it is not genetic. We are not "born" that way.

[Beligerant1]

here is a link: http://serendip.bryn...r2/Bodian2.html

Thats not the particular article i read, but it was the first thing that came up when i did a search. I skimmed it and it is basically talking about the same thing, he gives sources for his work, so it seems credible. Im sure there is much more out there if anyone cares to look, I think the article i read was in a magazine, probably Discover magazine since i read that the most.

And about not being a murderer if you have thoughts and desires of murdering someone but dont actually kill, etc. I knew that would come up and i dont really have a great response, its definately a theological issue more than anything. But there are definately a few of you who have stated being heterosexual before having had sex (i think even you said something to that effect johnny, but im not sure) so that is somewhat contradictory on your part and bolsters my view.



bolsters is a weird word.