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Where did Ultimate Muscle go wrong?


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#1 Rez

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:19 AM

Ok time for my first post on here.

 

Now Ultimate Muscle is my favorite anime ever I can't get enough of it. And back when FoxBox was in full swing Ultimate Muscle was pretty popular. Maybe not on the level of Dragon Ball Z but still it was popular enough that 4Kids was able to force Toei into making more episodes to meet the demands of it's fans. But now it's gotten to be very obscure. This place was the only active fansite for it I could find. And I can't help but wonder where did Ultimate Muscle go wrong? It had all the tools needed to be one of the all time bests. In my opinion it blows manestream anime like Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh out of the water in every way possible. Yet those shows go on. And Ultimate Muscle or Kinnikuman hasn't seen the light of day outside of Japan since the Demon Seed manga ended. 


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#2 Zenitram4th

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

Well, there's things like the rise of Internet (kayfabe and all that), UFC (and MMA in general) surging, the "lolfakeandgay" mentality that most people have when it comes to wrestling (let's not forget, it's a wrestling-themed series).

Of course, there's other things. For example, the adaptations of the manga, in both occasions. They had to change/modify lots of stuff out (Brocken Jr., the Camel Clutch, most of the graphic violence and some of the toilet humour in general).

I'd think an new anime adaptation would be great, at least of the original series. It'd look fantastic, but they'd have to figure out what to edit and what not. Here, a 2008 commercial that probably shows what it'd look like.

(Personally I think it's a bit unfair to compare Kinnikuman to Pokemon/YGO. They have different purposes. Probably a better comparison would be One Piece/Toriko/DBZ)


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#3 ironmask

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

#1. Lousy voice acting

#2. It was edited to the point of almost not being able to comprehend the original story, in places.

#3. The toy release was mishandled. 


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#4 NamaNiku

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

#1. Lousy voice acting
#2. It was edited to the point of almost not being able to comprehend the original story, in places.
#3. The toy release was mishandled.


100% agree.

#4 Yudetamago has said that it was purposefully produced and marketed towards children.
#5 The content and edits were much more silly and lighthearted than originally intended.
#6 Yudetamago had almost zero creative input into the US product. All the silly character name adaptations, jokes, and ring commentary were things the US studio came up with.
#7 Kinnikuman works because of Yudetamago. Take them out of the equation, and it sucks.
#8 US comic book sales of UM started tanking, so plans of furthering the anime were scrapped.
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#5 Ridureyu

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

Though I have to admit, there was ONE US dub change that I liked:  Changing Mongolman to Lomeinman.  You know, keeping with the Ramenman theme.


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#6 Rez

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:27 AM

Now I may be blinded by nostalgia But I don't think UM was that bad.(And yes I am familiar with the manga). But something thats been bugging me and what I blame for the lack of success of the Kinnikuman series in the american market is lack of promotion....Was the UM manga promoted at all?...Because I don't recall any. Or even funimation's (they have the UM DVD license according to wikipedia) lack of interest in the series. But I guess it doesn't matter. 

 

Also I don't think the Internet's mentality on pro wrestling. (As misguided as it may be. I mean it IS meant to be entertainment) has anything to do with it. Im a wrestling fan now. But I was a Kinnikuman fan way before wrestling.


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#7 ironmask

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 04:47 AM

I don't think the US IWC had jack shit to do with the failure of UM. 


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#8 Kingmuscle

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:46 AM

personally i think UM tanked because of Kinniku Mantarou/Kid Muscle yude made him near unbeatable until Kevin Mask kicked his butt although i enjoyed the anime myself until the last episode for obvious reasons, not mention Yude never gave Mantarou a lick of Character Developement, how the blue hell did Mantarou survive the match with Ricardo in the Manga he was friggin pierced multiple times by Punishment X and still stood up   


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#9 Stinger Wolf

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:04 PM

#1. Lousy voice acting

#2. It was edited to the point of almost not being able to comprehend the original story, in places.

#3. The toy release was mishandled. 

 

100% agree.

#4 Yudetamago has said that it was purposefully produced and marketed towards children.
#5 The content and edits were much more silly and lighthearted than originally intended.
#6 Yudetamago had almost zero creative input into the US product. All the silly character name adaptations, jokes, and ring commentary were things the US studio came up with.
#7 Kinnikuman works because of Yudetamago. Take them out of the equation, and it sucks.
#8 US comic book sales of UM started tanking, so plans of furthering the anime were scrapped.

I also agree 100%!

There are other anime's that 4Kids ruined. Glad they went bankrupt awhile ago.


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#10 NamaNiku

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:11 PM

I also agree 100%!

There are other anime's that 4Kids ruined. Glad they went bankrupt awhile ago.

 

100% agree!  :lol:  I am very glad as well.


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#11 Kingmuscle

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:19 AM

I also agree 100%!

There are other anime's that 4Kids ruined. Glad they went bankrupt awhile ago.

I think we can agree that if an anime goes to 4Kids its a death sentence I wont dish out on the anime too much because I loved the Poison Six Pack Arc Baron Max A Million was a wicked character


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#12 NamaNiku

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:03 AM

Any Kinnikuman is better than having no Kinnikuman at all. Any official English version of Nisei (even if flawed) was a huge win for fans.

Could have been better, but loved it all the same.
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#13 jkaris

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:16 AM

Any Kinnikuman is better than having no Kinnikuman at all. Any official English version of Nisei (even if flawed) was a huge win for fans.

Could have been better, but loved it all the same.

 

Agreed 100%. Plus, without 4Kids bringing the series over (which did better here than it did in Japan, BTW) we would have never got the toys.


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#14 Stinger Wolf

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:55 PM

Agreed 100%. Plus, without 4Kids bringing the series over (which did better here than it did in Japan, BTW) we would have never got the toys.

 

Regardless, it didn't do that much better. The second season was shown in Japan also.


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#15 ironmask

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:12 AM

We ARE kind of spoiled with the knowledge of what we *could have had*.... 

Still, when I see Kinniku-Anything, I want ultra violence. The juxtaposition of the ridiculous characters (Springman, for instance) doing hyper-violence to other characters? There is an irony to that, that is too awesome to deny.

I feel like 4 Kids kind of missed the point.


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#16 Rubberhammer

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:08 AM

We ARE kind of spoiled with the knowledge of what we *could have had*....
Still, when I see Kinniku-Anything, I want ultra violence. The juxtaposition of the ridiculous characters (Springman, for instance) doing hyper-violence to other characters? There is an irony to that, that is too awesome to deny.

Agreed.

A few wristwatches, and Rubik's cubes, suffering horrible deaths, at the hands of some equally ridiculous character, would have helped the series greatly.
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#17 jkaris

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

Regardless, it didn't do that much better. The second season was shown in Japan also.

 

But the second season was only created because the first season did so well here in the US that 4Kids ordered the seconds season. No 4Kids = no second season.


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#18 ironmask

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:58 AM

But the second season was only created because the first season did so well here in the US that 4Kids ordered the seconds season. No 4Kids = no second season.

 

This is absolutely true... It does make me wonder if another company tried UM, like Funimation, if maybe it would have done even better. I could be just seeing this through my eyes, but I think the US was ready for that cartoon but with more of an edge... At least as much of an edge as they gave the TMNT cartoon that ran during that same time.


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#19 Stinger Wolf

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

But the second season was only created because the first season did so well here in the US that 4Kids ordered the seconds season. No 4Kids = no second season.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Even if they didn't want a second season, a second season eventually would have been made. Not all anime series season's are back to back. Look at the original Kinnikuman anime. When the anime ended in 1986, 5 years later they finished it with the Ouisoudatsu hen arc. That's just one example. But with a Nisei second season here, what really matereialized from it. Was there new merchandise released or anything like that for the second season?

At that time, if ADV got a hold of it, most likely they would have done a better job with it. And Ironmask is right, Funimation would have done a much better job with it also.


Edited by Stinger Wolf, 13 May 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#20 jkaris

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

There was a slough of new stuff planned (and shown), but it never made it past Toy Fair. :(
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#21 Acidonia

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

Isn't this the only show 4kids got more episodes made of? only other one I can think of  is Yugioh the movie: The pymamid of light.

 

Also I think they treated this one better than other shows they dubbed at least the pun/joke humor fit the show. Also alot of those I hate 4kids videos never seem to mention Ultimate Muscle at all though thats not really a bad thing.

 

UK(and probally europe) never got any of the toys or Video games of the show either despite it begin popular here. Probably due to the fact they was by Bandai they have a habit of ignoring UK and Europe even with popular stuff at the time eg Digimon.


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#22 Kingmuscle

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

Isn't this the only show 4kids got more episodes made of? only other one I can think of  is Yugioh the movie: The pymamid of light.

 

Also I think they treated this one better than other shows they dubbed at least the pun/joke humor fit the show. Also alot of those I hate 4kids videos never seem to mention Ultimate Muscle at all though thats not really a bad thing.

 

UK(and probally europe) never got any of the toys or Video games of the show either despite it begin popular here. Probably due to the fact they was by Bandai they have a habit of ignoring UK and Europe even with popular stuff at the time eg Digimon.

Yugioh The Pyramid of Light Movie was an original movie made by 4Kids as was the capsule monsters movie, btw the main villain of pyramid of light Anubis was designed by Kazuki Takahashi but he decided not to use him at all in the manga

 

But the second season was only created because the first season did so well here in the US that 4Kids ordered the seconds season. No 4Kids = no second season.

too true but because of that we got a real lame ending Mantarou should've been disqualified for having two managers that's a violation of the Olympics rules im surprised yude wasn't angered by that I know I would be


Edited by Kingmuscle, 17 May 2013 - 09:54 PM.

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#23 Stinger Wolf

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:30 PM

jkaris, on 13 May 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:snapback.png

 

But the second season was only created because the first season did so well here in the US that 4Kids ordered the seconds season. No 4Kids = no second season.

 

too true but because of that we got a real lame ending Mantarou should've been disqualified for having two managers that's a violation of the Olympics rules im surprised yude wasn't angered by that I know I would be

 

jkaris, 13 May 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

There was a slough of new stuff planned (and shown), but it never made it past Toy Fair. :(

 

 

 

 

So it did okay to want a second season but didn't do well enough, since it's no new goods materialized in N.A. Yet, Kinnikuman goods are still released in Japan.


Edited by Stinger Wolf, 18 May 2013 - 03:58 PM.

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#24 jkaris

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

Stinger Wolf, on 18 May 2013 - 4:30 PM, said:
So it did okay to want a second season but didn't do well enough, since it's no new goods materialized in N.A. Yet, Kinnikuman goods are still released in Japan.

Kinnikuman is Japan is like Transformers over here. Even a few seasons of crappy cartoons or comics wouldn't be enough to make a bad name for the brand.

Nisei flopped in Japan, which is why there was no third season there. However, when the cartoon aired over here (Japan seasons 1 and 2 as US season 1) it did well enough over here for 4Kids to go back to Toei and have them produce another season.
Had it not been for the popularity of the series over here, there would have been no 3rd Japanese (2nd US) series at all.

Not to mention that the Ultimate Muscle Micro figures by Bandai were exclusive to North America and never were released in Japan.
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#25 Stinger Wolf

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

Kinnikuman is Japan is like Transformers over here. Even a few seasons of crappy cartoons or comics wouldn't be enough to make a bad name for the brand.

Nisei flopped in Japan, which is why there was no third season there. However, when the cartoon aired over here (Japan seasons 1 and 2 as US season 1) it did well enough over here for 4Kids to go back to Toei and have them produce another season.
Had it not been for the popularity of the series over here, there would have been no 3rd Japanese (2nd US) series at all.

Not to mention that the Ultimate Muscle Micro figures by Bandai were exclusive to North America and never were released in Japan.

Transformers here in the states is no different than in Japan. Takara is still producing them. I mean Takara/Tomy.

Boy, you sure make Nisei sound like it tanked in Japan. To say it 'flopped' and to say 'No 4Kids=no second season' is being Arrogant and Ignorant! In 2002, was it more popular than some other anime's at the time in Japan, like Naruto? No. But if Nisei really tanked or bombed like you're assuming, they wouldn't have made a second movie for it or even finished airing the first season. It would have been 'postponed'. Because 4kids wanted more episodes it sped that process up for more episodes which Toei didn't put in the TLC and it ended up doing a not so good job with it. Not right away, but there would have been a second season without Fourkids involvement. And it would have been better done, if that was the case. But unfortunately it's not. To say it did well enough in NA to pay for more episodes, sure. To say it did WAY better here and flopped in Japan, no. And Just to clarify, as it ended up, season 1 in Japan was 51 episodes. Season 2 was 13 & season 3 was 13 ep. Also, for the record, it's 'Anime'. Any animation from Japan is Anime, Not cartoon. Cartoons are animation that's produced here.

As for the NA Micro figs, so each country had it's own figs released. There were plenty of Nisei goods that was only sold in Japan. Like the Muscle Full Color figs. I was just pointing out that for something that was supposedly way more popular here, nothing new(toys) was released(except for the manga books) in NA even with stations airing the second season at that time.


Edited by Stinger Wolf, 21 May 2013 - 07:41 PM.

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