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Breaking the MUSCLE Color Code


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#51 Soupie

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 08:43 AM

V[esis,May 24 2006, 07:25 AM] Soupie-
Is the list on your site completely accurate?
The reason I ask is this-

I have probably 7 of the colored figures you have a blank spot for..

If by accurate you mean up-to-date, the answer is yes. Every image I have is posted online.

There are actually two archives: a MUSCLE numbers archive and a Kinnikuman Parts archive. They both feature the same exact images, but the Kinnikuman archive predicts which missing images should be available. Those images (figures) assumed to exist are marked with a colored question mark.

Check out the Needs Archive at the bottom of this page. If you have any of the figures let me know. Furthermore, if you have any figures not in the needs archive, but also not in the Kinnikuman parts archive, please, please let me know!

Thanks!
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#52 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 12:49 PM

Just a point of interest. I saw a green #168 on Yahoo Japan the other night. Interesting how some hard to find figures seem to be common overseas.
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#53 Soupie

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 01:14 PM

Just a point of interest. I saw a green #168 on Yahoo Japan the other night. Interesting how some hard to find figures seem to be common overseas.

Well, from what I've been learning by talking with Arforbes, Topher, and Mathewftz, there does really seem to be something to this foreign availability of colored MUSCLEs.

For instance, Topher, a Canadian, has several colored MUSCLEs that Arforbes and Philly do not have.

Likewise, Mathewftz, a Brit, has (had) a few that Arforbes and Philly don't have, while he reports that a majority of his UK colored MUSCLEs are rare and uncommon.

The MDB is pretty much a representation of American-released colored MUSCLEs. That's not to say that it isn't accurate as far as which sculpts were made in which colors.

Personally, I don't believe Bandai/Mattel made certain colors more scarce than others on purpose. My belief is that sculpt/color availability has to do with "double dipping." The idea that some trees were made in a particular color twice, and only once or nonce in other colors.

However, there is also the possibility that each tree was made in its colors an equal number of times, but a large portion representing 1 or 2 colors was distributed elsewhere than America.

What are the theorized colored waves again?

Flesh

Flesh and what?

All colors

Just a point of interest. I saw a green #168 on Yahoo Japan the other night.

I hope the pic wasn't usable for the MCIA, otherwise why didn't you let me know?

:(
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#54 jkaris

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 01:17 PM

Just a point of interest. I saw a green #168 on Yahoo Japan the other night. Interesting how some hard to find figures seem to be common overseas.

Are you sure it was a MUSCLE? Kinkeshi were green as well. They had both light and regualr green.
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#55 Ne]V[esis

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 01:47 PM

Soupie-

I will go through all of my colored figures tonight and send you the pics of missing entries. I am not sure when exactly I will post them, as I may be gone for a few hours after work (I have to celebrate, I got a promotion B) ).

I am 100% sure I have at least two from your needs archive, and I have a hunch quite a few more.

I will keep you posted.
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#56 Soupie

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 02:02 PM

V[esis,May 24 2006, 01:47 PM] I am not sure when exactly I will post them

I sent you a PM.
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#57 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 02:51 PM

Are you sure it was a MUSCLE? Kinkeshi were green as well. They had both light and regualr green.

I'm pretty sure it was. It was in box of keshis lying on the top. Unless 168 was reissued in the glossy keshi plastic. Cause it was the neon green with the gloss of a muscle. The other figures in the box had the dingy spongie look of Keshi's and the 168 looked vibrant and solid. Of course I could be wrong. The auction should still be up, so I'll look for the picture again and post it. However it wasn't a usable photo soups, cause it was practically of his back. Let's see if my memory is messing with me. B)
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#58 arforbes

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 02:58 PM

Are you sure it was a MUSCLE? Kinkeshi were green as well. They had both light and regualr green.

I'm pretty sure it was. It was in box of keshis lying on the top. Unless 168 was reissued in the glossy keshi plastic. Cause it was the neon green with the gloss of a muscle. The other figures in the box had the dingy spongie look of Keshi's and the 168 looked vibrant and solid. Of course I could be wrong. The auction should still be up, so I'll look for the picture again and post it. However it wasn't a usable photo soups, cause it was practically of his back. Let's see if my memory is messing with me. B)

Got a link?

B)
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#59 jkaris

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:08 PM

I'm pretty sure it was. It was in box of keshis lying on the top. Unless 168 was reissued in the glossy keshi plastic. Cause it was the neon green with the gloss of a muscle.

I know which one you are talking about. He was face down with his feet up, in the top right corner of the box in the pic.
That was a re-issue, not a MUSCLE.

Looking for the auction now....
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#60 rlek2

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:45 PM

I do have a green 168... I'll try to get a pic within the next day or 2.
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#61 Soupie

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 04:13 PM

I do have a green 168... I'll try to get a pic within the next day or 2.

B)
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#62 rlek2

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 09:02 PM

Haven't posted any pics here before, and I just got a new camera, so I had to resize. Many apologies if this doesn't turn out...

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#63 Soupie

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 02:56 AM

Perfect! Thanks!

Do you have any others?

B)
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#64 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 05:06 AM

I'm pretty sure it was.  It was in box of keshis lying on the top.  Unless 168 was reissued in the glossy keshi plastic.  Cause it was the neon green with the gloss of a muscle.

I know which one you are talking about. He was face down with his feet up, in the top right corner of the box in the pic.
That was a re-issue, not a MUSCLE.

Looking for the auction now....

Yep, that's the one. I've been looking for it, but I can't find it anywhere. So it must have ended already. B) It sure looked like a muscle to me though.
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#65 rlek2

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 06:54 AM

Perfect! Thanks!

Do you have any others?

B)

Hi Soupie,

Off hand I can think of 165 in magenta and 109 in salmon. But it may take me awhile to go through some boxes and find them...

Cheers,
Ryan
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#66 Soupie

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 08:58 AM

Off hand I can think of 165 in magenta and 109 in salmon. But it may take me awhile to go through some boxes and find them...

B)

#165 is a "rare" figure! Its tree consists of 3 sculpts, 1 of which I already have in Magenta.

B) :lol:

#109 Salmon is a sculpt from a tree that is "uncertain" in the Salmon color! If you do indeed have #109 in Salmon, then I can promote Salmon to "rare" for that tree!

I'll anxiously await for you to get them to me. Thanks!
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#67 Soupie

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 09:05 AM

#109 Salmon is a sculpt from a tree that is "uncertain" in the Salmon color! If you do indeed have #109 in Salmon, then I can promote Salmon to "rare" for that tree!

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This is a sculpt from the same tree. This tree is also "rare" in Purple. I only have one image in Purple from this tree, although Arforbes should be getting me an image of the above sculpt in Purple soon.

In any case, it's cool to know that the #107 sculpt is available in yet another color.
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#68 rlek2

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 09:37 AM

light blue 162

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#69 rlek2

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 09:38 AM

magenta 165

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#70 rlek2

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 09:39 AM

salmon 109... hope the quality of the pics is okay

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#71 Soupie

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 12:10 PM

All three, perfect!

Thanks!

If you come across anymore, send 'em my way!

B)
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#72 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 25 May 2006 - 08:44 PM

Coolness! We may be on the verge of eventually finding at least one tree in all 8 colors. It would be interesting if we did. That's 1 uncertain tree down and a few more to go.
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#73 Soupie

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 06:35 AM

We may be on the verge of eventually finding at least one tree in all 8 colors.

What makes you think that?

:rolleyes:

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I don't want people to be any more confused than it seems they already are.

(The following is not directed at you, URS, I've been wanting to do this since Topher's recent posts.)

For those besides URS and myself who are interested, there's basically only 1 way to predict if a sculpt exists in a certain color, and there is only 1 way to confirm that a sculpt exists in a certain color, but there are several intermediate ways of predicting and confirming figures, which makes things more confusing than this run-on sentence.

First, some terminology I've been wanting to address:

Sculpt -- basic figure design
Color -- 1 of 10 possible MUSCLE colors
Figure -- a sculpt of a particular color

How to Predict if a MUSCLE is available in a certain color:

1) Choose a Kinnikuman Part. Let's say part one.

2) Determine which MUSCLE figures are in part one.

3) Group all MUSCLEs from part one together.

4) Go to the MUSCLE DB.

5) Gather all the statistics on the MUSCLEs from Kinnikuman part one.

6) Break into groups those MUSCLEs with similar statistics. These groups are known as trees.

7) Once groups are established, their physical images can be arranged in accordance to the patterns discoved via the MDB information.

8) URS has found that these groups/trees come in 4, 5, 6, and 7 colors, no more and no less.

8) There are several instances where images of all the sculpt/color combinations of a particular group/tree are available, except for one or two.

9) Since several other sculpts belonging to the same group/tree have been found in that color -- say Red -- we can predict that the missing Red sculpt does indeed exist. (The prediction is also strengthened by the fact that several people will most likely have reported having said figure on the MDB.)

10) On the same hand, if no sculpts from a group/tree have been reported as found in a particular color, it is possible to predict that no sculpts from said group/tree will ever be found in said color.

The reason I believe this to be true is because of the overall reliability of the MDB data. For instance, if you were to compile the statistics for a particular kinnikuman part, you would be amazed out how clearly the patterns present themselves.

For instance, many groups/trees consisting of 5-10 sculpts are represented by numbers like this:

Salmon | Purple | Dark Blue | Light Blue | Red | Magenta | Orange | Green

#001 -- 0 | 33 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 45 | 0
#056 -- 0 | 30 | 23 | 0 | 0 | 31 | 43 | 0
#345 -- 0 | 29 | 24 | 0 | 0 | 34 | 42 | 0
#121 -- 0 | 30 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 31 | 43 | 0
#321 -- Etc., etc.

Lets say that 7 sculpts from a particular part share this pattern.

When you see consistent numbers like that for a groups of 7 figures, and have a collection like Arforbes' that mirrors those numbers exactly, you can feel pretty confident that the above group/tree:

1) Comes in Purple, Dark Blue, Magenta, and Orange

2) Does not come in Salmon, Light Blue, Red, and Green

What happens if I don't have an image of, say, one of the 7 sculpts in Purple? Well, considering that I do have images of the other 6 and that sculpt has been reported as found in Purple on the MDB, it is safe, as I said above, to predict that it is indeed available in Purple.

Is it possible that the group/tree does indeed come in Green? Yes. But the fact that of the 7 sculpts in the group/tree, not one has been reported as found in Green, I think it is safe to predict that those 7 sculpts were not made in Green.

There is strength in numbers and patterns when it comes to making predictions.

Other ways to predict figure availabilty.

Lets say the statistics for a group/tree consisting of 4 figures look like this:

Salmon | Purple | Dark Blue | Light Blue | Red | Magenta | Orange | Green

#001 -- 0 | 33 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 30 | 45 | 1
#056 -- 0 | 30 | 23 | 0 | 0 | 31 | 43 | 0
#345 -- 0 | 29 | 24 | 0 | 0 | 34 | 42 | 1
#121 -- 0 | 30 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 31 | 43 | 0

You'll notice that only two people report finding sculpts from this tree in Green! However, let's say it just so happens that Arforbes has an image of #345 in Green. Great! No problem, it is now safe to assume these four figures come in Green, albeit they are apparently extremely rare.

However, if no image is available of any of these four sculpts in Green, we have a problem! It then becomes very likely that they are mistakes:

1) Because there are no corraborating images.
2) Because only two people have reported having them.
3) Because they don't match the otherwise perfect group/tree pattern.

In such cases, I have labeled these colors "Uncertain."

Furthermore, the more sculpts in a group/tree, the more likely the pattern is correct, and the out-lying reported find is an error. In other words, imagine if the above group/tree consisted of 10 sculpts, all of which match up perfectly statistically, except for 1 or 2 reported finds in Green. It's a tough sell without an image.

Amazingly, the statistics, and thus the patterns, of the MDB or so consistent, that of the 45 total groups/trees, there are currently only 4 uncertain colors! (Three of which are Orange.) This fact along strengthens the case for the accuracy of the tree code's ability to predict sculpt color availability!

:)

Now, concerning the real colored MUSCLE scenarios. As I said, all of the recent finds have been predicted, though one sculpt -- Salmon #109 -- did belong to a tree that was considered "Uncertain" in Salmon.

Even so, there are no groups/trees to my knowledge that are predicated to be found in 8 colors, let alone any that have been found in 6 or 7 colors, and are "Uncertain" in the remaining 2 or 1 colors.

For each group/tree there is at least one color that is all 0's for each sculpt belonging to it, if not 2 or 3.

:)
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#74 Universal Ruler Supreme

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 02:13 PM

What makes you think that?


Just suggesting the possiblity of finding a tree in all 8 colors. We already have numerous trees found in 7 of the 8 colors. Although all our info thus far points against it, as I said earlier in Tophers MO post, that the trees believed not to have been made in a certain color, may indeed just be Super Rare. With the theory of some colored sculpts being sent in huge batches to other countries could easily offset the balance of colored figures here. Personally I do hope that we discover that all figures were made in all colors, but I know that the chances are slim. The only factor I can think of at the moment that seriously goes against that theory is the fact that we know what came from Canada, United Kingdom, and Australia, just to name a few, are practically the same as what comes form America.
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#75 Soupie

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 07:19 AM

We already have numerous trees found in 7 of the 8 colors.  Although all our info thus far points against it, as I said earlier in Tophers MO post, that the trees believed not to have been made in a certain color, may indeed just be Super Rare.

Yep, that really could be the case.

In fact, when I have gotten images of all missing -- but predicted -- figures, which I'm pretty close to doing (Topher has a ton of figures still needed), I'm going to place all the sculpts belonging to trees known to be available in 7 colors into the needs archive.

That way it will serve as a quick reference for the sulpts most likely to be found first in all eight colors.

When browsing through eBay auctions, it's quite simple to pull up the needs archive to check which sculpts are needed in which colors.

It wouldn't be practical if I were to place all the sculpt/color combinations not yet found -- and not predicted to be available -- into the needs archive.
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