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Webcam Magic the Gathering


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#1 Soupie

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

Welcome to Webcam Magic the Gathering. A few of us, Sborders, endlesswrath, and myself, have been playing MTG via Webcam and it works pretty much perfectly. The only trouble we've had is when either of our computers is running slowly and needs restarted. It only happened once and now we know to restart the computer before playing (if needed). So here's what you need to do if you want to play via Webcam with us:

(1) For this to be feasible for you, you'll need a high-speed Internet connection.

(2) Purchase a high quality Webcam for about $65-70. (A Logitech Webcam Pro 9000's (see below for link) works perfectly.)

(3) Get a white playmat for about $5. (This insures a clear, uncluttered play area that is equal size for both players.)

(4) Make sure your play area is well lit. Good lighting insures a clear picture.

(5) Create a system that allows you to suspend the camera directly above the play area. (See attached pictures.)

(6) Currently we are using Skype. It has worked very well and has a nice full-screen option (if your computer can handle it). Set up a free Skype account.

(7) Most importantly, plan ahead for when you want to play. We're only available to play certain days and times, and it's pretty safe to assume that it will be that way for almost everybody.

(8) If you want to play, post your Skype account name here and list some days and times (with time zones) that would work for you. (I'll update below.)


---

Player List

( Skype account name / Days and Times available w/ timezone / Play Format )


(1) Soupie / Fridays and Saturdays, 9:00 - 12:00 PM EST / Casual

(2) endlesswrath / Wednesdays, 5-7 PM, Fridays and Saturdays, 5:00-12:00 PM PST

(3) sborders1 / Fridays and Saturdays, 7:30 - 10:00 PM PST / Casual

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Edited by Soupie, 19 October 2009 - 04:20 PM.

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#2 BaltanII

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 10:39 AM

That sounds and looks so cool! Even if it is incredibly dorky. -_-

Purchasing a webcam is nowhere near my list of priorities, so I would probably never participate anytime soon, but I do hope you guys keep it up.
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#3 WhiteLeo

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 10:56 AM

That sounds and looks so cool! Even if it is incredibly dorky. -_-

Purchasing a webcam is nowhere near my list of priorities, so I would probably never participate anytime soon, but I do hope you guys keep it up.


That was the toughest part for me was the webcam. I had to sell a few cards in order to pay for it. After I got over that hurdle it was smooth sailing from there.

I got mine though eBay only because amazon does not take paypal.

But like Soupie was saying once the game was going it was hard to tell you where using a webcam. The hardest thing for us was the three hour difference. It was 7:00 my time when we started and it was 9:00 over where he was.

I can't wait to play against him again!

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#4 lwrathi

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 11:59 AM

ok im on, who else wants in?

I can play a quick game, mate. (It's 8:00 pm here.)


endlesswrath waiting for some whoop ass XD

edit: anyone here?



A 2:1 win for me vs soupies muller and his experimental token deck.

Good gaming Soupie!
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#5 Soupie

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 03:46 PM

Trying to find an easy, inexpensive setup for positioning the Webcam over the playing area. Found the perfect product! Now just need to find a seller in the US or a UK seller who will ship to the US.

http://onlineshop.rn...m...amp;l=3&d=0

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Edited by Soupie, 17 October 2009 - 06:13 PM.

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#6 dankingery

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 06:40 PM

i bet if you checked out the office supply stores you'd find something similar if not the exact same.
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#7 lwrathi

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:21 PM

i bet if you checked out the office supply stores you'd find something similar if not the exact same.



Ima check staples tomorrow.

Edit: I found it! only about 20 bucks and I can tear it up and mod it! Its Here!

Edited by lwrathi, 17 October 2009 - 09:28 PM.

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#8 Soupie

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 03:51 PM

Got it working. I removed the light fixture (?) and attached the camera with Velcro.

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#9 WhiteLeo

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:28 AM

A 2:1 win for me vs soupies muller and his experimental token deck.
Good gaming Soupie!


Oh, wait till I get better. :lol: You will get to play agianst my total control deck. :)


Got it working. I removed the light fixture (?) and attached the camera with Velcro.


Nice set up soups! I will have to post pictures of how I have mine set up later.

sborders
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#10 Soupie

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:41 AM

Nice set up soups! I will have to post pictures of how I have mine set up later.

Yeah, cool, I was going to ask you to do that. :lol:

Also, I love having a larger pool of people to play against. Now I feel like I can build some creature-based decks! Can't wait for Boa to enter the fray. :)
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#11 lwrathi

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:06 PM

Nice set up soups! I will have to post pictures of how I have mine set up later.

Yeah, cool, I was going to ask you to do that. :(

Also, I love having a larger pool of people to play against. Now I feel like I can build some creature-based decks! Can't wait for Boa to enter the fray. ;)



OH NOES NOT BOA!

(which one, Constrictor or the Zendikar one?)
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#12 TheOrgg

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:21 PM

Conda.*

As in Boaconda, not an Evil Dead reference. He's another member here.
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#13 WhiteLeo

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 07:29 AM

Here is how mine hangs above my computer screen.

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I have very little shaking in the camera because of how it is secured. I used a bracket from work, and some flat washers to hold it in place. Pretty simple little set up.

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#14 Soupie

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:37 AM

Yeah, that's an ideal setup. It looks like you can adjust how the camera sits in the bracket (wiggle it gently one way or the other), and then the camera itself has two joints that can be moved to adjust it further. Nice.

The only draw-back would be if you needed to really raise or lower it. As it is, your shelf height is just right.

I have an idea for another setup type. I'll make a concept drawing tonite and post it here.
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#15 Coulro

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:55 PM

Yeah, that's an ideal setup. It looks like you can adjust how the camera sits in the bracket (wiggle it gently one way or the other), and then the camera itself has two joints that can be moved to adjust it further. Nice.

The only draw-back would be if you needed to really raise or lower it. As it is, your shelf height is just right.

I have an idea for another setup type. I'll make a concept drawing tonite and post it here.


I thought about trying to set up a webcam situation to play with a friend of mine ever since we played during his out of town visit last Labor Day. I came across your thread a couple weeks ago, before you had posted the new pics of your current webcam holder setup (all you had were the 3 pics of your play area).

After first seeing your play area pics I started thinking about the best kind of rig I could build to make setup and playing quick and easy, but I never really fleshed anything out. I'm glad I checked back with this thread and saw your new rig pics. I like your simple solution with the modified lamp armature. I'll be interested to see what your new concept drawing is.

Instead I actually did more research on which webcam I should buy. Right now the two most popular ones out there seem to be the Logitech Pro 9000 that you mentioned and the new Microsoft Lifecam Cinema that recently came out.

But I was wondering if you or someone else could expand on your play experiences so far (what works well, what you wish was better, etc) because your play area pics don't seem to be sharp as I had hoped when I first envisioned doing this (as well as the glare from your lights reflecting off the card protectors).

When you are using Skype and have the video image full screen on you monitor, I'm assuming you can't read any card text (unless you hold it up to the camera), but can you at least see the power/toughness of creature cards? I get the sense that to really play this way, both players need to be knowledgable enough to recognize and know what cards do by their pictures alone.

Unfortunately it seems the problem doesn't fully lie with just the quality of the webcam, but rather the programs like Skype whose best streaming resolution is only 640 x 480. I haven't found any other programs yet that can do better than that (although I haven't really looked too hard yet).

I did find some interesting new developments regarding the new USB 3.0 stuff coming out which may finally allow for better resolution webcasting. But untill there are Webcams and Software to support it, it's probably still a ways out before that.

Anyways, if I ever get something set up I'll be sure to jump back on here to see about getting some games going.
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#16 Soupie

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:48 PM

Excellent questions/concerns. Buying a $70 webcam is no small investment for most of us. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

But I was wondering if you or someone else could expand on your play experiences so far (what works well, what you wish was better, etc) because your play area pics don't seem to be sharp as I had hoped when I first envisioned doing this (as well as the glare from your lights reflecting off the card protectors).

When you are using Skype and have the video image full screen on you monitor, I'm assuming you can't read any card text (unless you hold it up to the camera), but can you at least see the power/toughness of creature cards? I get the sense that to really play this way, both players need to be knowledgable enough to recognize and know what cards do by their pictures alone.

First of all, if I had the option of playing Magic with Sborders and lwrathi in person versus via webcam, I'd choose to play them in person. In other words, those choosing to play MTG via webcam will most likely do so because of lack of opportunities to play quality games of MTG with others in person.

(I'll talk mostly about playing sborders, because when lwrathi and I played, his setup was not ideal. Although we were still able to play.)

What I can honestly tell you is that once sborders and I started playing, I was not thinking about the fact that we were playing via webcam. What I was thinking about was game strategy and which moves to make in which order. (And also probably crying about not having enough mana.) To me, that was the most important part of the whole experience. I think the other thing that is telling is that we've played multiple times, and our play sessions have gone for about an average of 2-2.5 hours. The bottom line is that it's fun, just like MTG should be. I guess that is something I'd say works well.

You are correct that you typically cannot read the opponents' cards when they are laying on the table. You cannot see the power and toughness either. However, when I played in high school and college, particularly multiplayer games, you couldn't read the opponents cards when they were lying across the table from you upside down either. :no:

In both cases, communication and patience are very important. The webcam allows for easy communication between players. "What's that guy do again? What's his toughness? Can I see him again?" These are all questions that could happen even in a RL (real life) game or a webcam game, I believe.

The other thing I've noticed is that you become quickly (and painfully in some cases) familiar with each others' decks and cards. Personally, I wouldn't want to play MTG against 5 new people every week. My ideal is to have 3-4 people to play against on a fairly regular basis. So, when sborders begins tapping 7 mana, I know he's getting ready to cast a Platinum Angel. :cry:

As I say, patience is key. It quickly becomes habit to hold any new or confusing cards up to the camera so the opponent can read it, and to wait until they say they are done. I can honestly say for me it does not impede the game in any way. I personally have a tremendously bad memory, so I need to be reminded of what a card is/does several times throughout a game. But like I said, I'd be doing the same exact thing if I was playing someone in RL. :)

The other things that help are card positioning. Keeping mana, artifacts, creatures, etc. positioned and separated around the play area really helps. Another thing is to be slightly more verbal. In stead of just tapping two mountains and a plains, actually say, "I'm tapping two mountains and a plains." Or, "I'm going to attack with me Serra Angel," and slide the card forward slightly.

The other thing to keep in mind is that your cards are right in front of you and in your hand, and they are crystal clear. Once you get pulled into a game, it's very easy to "forget" that you're playing via webcam. At least it is for me. I think even in RL game so MTG, the cards most visible to a player are his own.

What I wish was better would be to have a larger, clearer picture. However, I contend that the current size and clearness is enough to allow for games of MTG.

Unfortunately it seems the problem doesn't fully lie with just the quality of the webcam, but rather the programs like Skype whose best streaming resolution is only 640 x 480. I haven't found any other programs yet that can do better than that (although I haven't really looked too hard yet).

I did find some interesting new developments regarding the new USB 3.0 stuff coming out which may finally allow for better resolution webcasting. But untill there are Webcams and Software to support it, it's probably still a ways out before that.

Anyways, if I ever get something set up I'll be sure to jump back on here to see about getting some games going.

I believe you're correct that 640 x 480 is the highest resolution available at the moment. That's all I've found. I'm very, very confident that there are many smart people out there trying to make higher resolutions a reality asap. There's an incredible amount of demand for from multiple industries. When it will arrive, I'm not sure, but we'll certainly be here waiting for it.

If you ever do pick up a webcammmy, definitely stop back on by for a game or two. :)

Edited by Soupie, 21 October 2009 - 03:03 PM.

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#17 BaltanII

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:26 PM

Can't wait for Boa to enter the fray. :no:


You know, the first time in a while that I have plenty of money and can easily afford a camera at long last, two problems occur to me. 1) I'm hella sick, but that's just a temporary issue unless I die; and 2) I have no way/room whatsoever to mount a camera next to my computer. :) I will need to see how creative I can be with such a setup. Love you guys and all, but I'm not buying myself a laptop solely to play against you. :cry:
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#18 Soupie

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:58 PM

My original setup was to hang a loop of bendable wire from the ceiling and hang the camera from it. It worked well enough, but I was forced to keep the wire hanging above my desk which I didn't like.

Edited by Soupie, 21 October 2009 - 03:59 PM.

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#19 lwrathi

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:51 PM

Furnace of Rath, Glory of Warfare and a Double striker is Soup's best friends :)
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#20 lwrathi

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 06:09 PM

Now my setup is ideal, and reasonably awesome.

Basically, a camera on a vertical stand pointing down on my mat. The new play is epic.



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from my POV
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From the play areas POV
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Side POV (sorry for blur)
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Camera's POV
Picture above taken by my Webby.
Drastic improvement I would say Soup

Edited by lwrathi, 21 October 2009 - 06:14 PM.

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#21 WhiteLeo

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 05:54 AM

But I was wondering if you or someone else could expand on your play experiences so far (what works well, what you wish was better, etc) because your play area pics don't seem to be sharp as I had hoped when I first envisioned doing this (as well as the glare from your lights reflecting off the card protectors).

When you are using Skype and have the video image full screen on you monitor, I'm assuming you can't read any card text (unless you hold it up to the camera), but can you at least see the power/toughness of creature cards? I get the sense that to really play this way, both players need to be knowledgable enough to recognize and know what cards do by their pictures alone.


Skype as worked the best from Soups and my experience so far. We get playing and soon don't even know we are playing webcam. I may get the occasional shake from Soups side. Just like any Magic game sometimes we ask “what that card does” more than once, or what “are your creatures again”. But you do that in an IN Person game as well. The Logitech camera has been great. My problem is that it zooms in and out of focus when there is nothing on the mat. As soon as you lay some cards down bam! It is solid. Having a big enough computer to keep logged on as well is key. There was one time my computer kept failing on some games me and soups where playing. It must have just been tired that night. It has worked ever since flawlessly.

So, when sborders begins tapping 7 mana, I know he's getting ready to cast a Platinum Angel. :D


That is only if I don't have my Tolarian Academy out! ;) :p

Now my setup is ideal, and reasonably awesome.

Basically, a camera on a vertical stand pointing down on my mat. The new play is epic.


Nice set up lwrathi!!!! I can't wait to play against you. As soon as I am better it is on like donkey kong! :lol:
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I will always place the mission first.
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I will never leave a fallen comrade.


#22 lwrathi

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 02:08 PM

But I was wondering if you or someone else could expand on your play experiences so far (what works well, what you wish was better, etc) because your play area pics don't seem to be sharp as I had hoped when I first envisioned doing this (as well as the glare from your lights reflecting off the card protectors).

When you are using Skype and have the video image full screen on you monitor, I'm assuming you can't read any card text (unless you hold it up to the camera), but can you at least see the power/toughness of creature cards? I get the sense that to really play this way, both players need to be knowledgable enough to recognize and know what cards do by their pictures alone.


Skype as worked the best from Soups and my experience so far. We get playing and soon don't even know we are playing webcam. I may get the occasional shake from Soups side. Just like any Magic game sometimes we ask “what that card does” more than once, or what “are your creatures again”. But you do that in an IN Person game as well. The Logitech camera has been great. My problem is that it zooms in and out of focus when there is nothing on the mat. As soon as you lay some cards down bam! It is solid. Having a big enough computer to keep logged on as well is key. There was one time my computer kept failing on some games me and soups where playing. It must have just been tired that night. It has worked ever since flawlessly.

So, when sborders begins tapping 7 mana, I know he's getting ready to cast a Platinum Angel. :)


That is only if I don't have my Tolarian Academy out! ;) :unsure:

Now my setup is ideal, and reasonably awesome.

Basically, a camera on a vertical stand pointing down on my mat. The new play is epic.


Nice set up lwrathi!!!! I can't wait to play against you. As soon as I am better it is on like donkey kong! :)



Thanks Sborders, You better get better so I can find a way to get rid of your control :)
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#23 dankingery

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:37 PM

yikes! that signature is huge!
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#24 Soupie

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 05:56 PM

Here's the setup I would like to put together. It combines the desk lamp arm I'm already using and the double-headed clamp I'm trying to get. The setup is positioned behind the monitor and and extends up and over the monitor, to hover over the play area. The advantage of this setup is that 1) it's behind the monitor and out of the way, and 2) it's sturdy yet highly adjustable: it can be adjusted up and down and side to side several different ways.

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#25 WhiteLeo

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 06:26 PM

Damn Rapheal! Always getting into your drawings!!!! When will he learn! :unsure: :)

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