142 replies to this topic

[ironmask]

I think that the idea to have public deals (minus personal information) as an option, is great. It would either force some of the unethical members to come correct, or at least put their behavior on front street.

Chad, I think you HAVE helped change the hobby... I think that some people have used the info that you and Soups earned for the forces of evil... But, overall, your respective contributions have had a overwhelmingly positive effect on the community.

Another thing that I think would help, is for the MUSCLE community to abolish the Rule of Two, by instituting a little common sense... By not letting every common pissing contest between "High Rollers" have a lasting effect on the ongoing market. Phasing eBay out as a primary mode of MUSCLE sales, will also be helpful in this. If we want the hobby to go back to where it was... We CAN do that... It's just going to require us not succumbing to greed, and sticking to our guns on whatever ethics we decide upon for this endeavor.

It can be done, we CAN be that change, we CAN take the hobby back.

[walker13.1]

Another thing that I think would help, is for the MUSCLE community to abolish the Rule of Two, by instituting a little common sense... By not letting every common pissing contest between "High Rollers" have a lasting effect on the ongoing market. Phasing eBay out as a primary mode of MUSCLE sales,

As long as an auction sold without a shill bidder and/or someone who has a control issue (buying it to resale), then I don't see an issue with using Ebay as a source for value information. Case in point, for giggles I decided to watch this auction on Ebay. It's a #1 Marilyn Monroe. If I ever decide to sale mine you bet I'm going to get it graded because of this auction. This auction sold for a LOT more than what I paid for mine, and that is the reason I'll get it graded if ever comes a time for me to sale it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350706333079?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[ironmask]

I don't see an issue with using Ebay as a source for value information.

It can be useful as a tool... BUT, "Value Information" should be taken from trends, not single cartoonishly ridiculous auctions. Cutting eBay out of the deal, at least until the market stabilizes, seems to be an efficient way to do that.

[walker13.1]

It can be useful as a tool... BUT, "Value Information" should be taken from trends, not single cartoonishly ridiculous auctions. Cutting eBay out of the deal, at least until the market stabilizes, seems to be an efficient way to do that.

I respectfully disagree. Ebay is where most higher ticket items get discovered, so that is going to be the place to get value information. I know your Dr. Bombe was sold on LRG, but SR sales more often than not happen on Ebay. I know the last SC 4 pack sale was idiotic, and another one will probably not reach that high again any time soon. It's actually nice to see the current one holding at $100 with only one bidder. People can say the value of class a figures have gotten out of hand. Well, I could care less, and as long as you're not collecting a master set you shouldn't care either. Let the people who are buying the figures have at it, and spend more time focusing on your own collecting. Don't let the actions of others dictate your collecting. If people only bid what they're willing to bid, there wouldn't be much of an issue.

It would also help if people would stop trying to "control" or "scare off" other collectors by buying up everything. People can argue that I had extra SC 4 packs once. I'll then say ask the people who bought them/traded with me if I went after more money than what I paid for them. Just like the class a figures I had, I bought the SC 4 packs for trade ammunition. I'm pretty darn sure that rescent actions of late haven't been for trade ammunition, but for resale.

Also have some consideration of the collecting community as a whole. If you try to end something early when there are already bids, then you're a dirt bag, period. A pile of crap is still a pile of crap no matter which way you look at it, and people who try to end auctions early are just the same. As far as I'm concerned these people should be treated equally by LRG members just like people who shill or control auctions.

Edited by vette88, 01 March 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[ironmask]

It's "nice to see" a SC four pack "holding at $100"?

I respectfully disagree with that.
That's like a flesh #153 4-Pack holding at $100, and us being elated about it. That is, in a nutshell, one of the largest problems with the community right now.
I also fail to see the difference between "resale" and "Buying something you don't want, for the sole purpose of using it as leverage".

If we want to make a change for the better, we're going to have to start putting our money where our mouths are.

[walker13.1]

It's "nice to see" a SC four pack "holding at $100"?

I respectfully disagree with that.
That's like a flesh #153 4-Pack holding at $100, and us being elated about it. That is, in a nutshell, one of the largest problems with the community right now.
I also fail to see the difference between "resale" and "Buying something you don't want, for the sole purpose of using it as leverage".

If we want to make a change for the better, we're going to have to start putting our money where our mouths are.

I hate to be the dark horse on this issue, but I can't be the only one who has read this thread and thought this is nothing more than beating a dead horse. How many times does this issue need to get discussed?

In the last 3 years I've been collecting I have yet to see one go for less. Like it or not, higher ticket items tend to hold some value. What you think is fair to pay for a SC 4 pack is not what it's going to sale for. The numerous SC 4 packs we had the last 6 months or so, did any of them go for less than $100? No, not a single one, and that is with numerous coming out in a short period of time. It's kind of like the purple claw talk. The figure isn't worth much to you or many others; however, like it or not it's still an $800+ figure, and history proves me right. I want a Ferrari, but I only want to pay $10,000. Should I be given the opportunity to buy a Ferrari for only $10,000? No.

Using it as leverage to get equal value in trade is a far cry from buying something and trying to double your money.

To me it's quite simple:

1. Bid only what you are comfortable with. If you lose sleep over how much you bid, then you over paid. Don't blame the community for the figure going for a lot (unless there was a shill bidder or people with control issues). No, you bid out of your comfort range and that is your fault and your fault only.

2. Let an auction run its course. That is the only way we'll ever know the true value.

Edited by vette88, 01 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[ironmask]

I don't think you are a "Dark Horse" so to speak... But you certainly are looking out for your investment.

I also think you're not taking into account that a large part of the argument is that the "Value" of these "High Ticket Items" has been artificially driven up over the past few years.
You're also comparing automobiles to little rubber figurines. It's an invalid analogy.

I do think it is important, if I may use a piece from your collection, to lend distinction between SC figures or Class A figures and then pieces like your Nestle can. Nobody is trying to argue the point that there ARE some high ticket items that clearly hold much more value (1:1 figures also fit into this category).
Figures that are known to exist in the high hundreds, or even thousands, selling for $100-$800? That's crazy.
You can call it "Beating a dead horse", but I think that if you go back and look at the other comments in this thread, a majority of the community is sick of it, and is ready and willing to try to change it.

[jkaris]

A few quick things....

1. With all the crap about Alex vs the new crop of anti-social collectors (which, mind you, we can clearly see in any of the larger toy groups) is that while someone like ironoak may be doing things that are shitty in regards to the community aspect of the group, but the new guys (outside of the ones we have banned) aren't ripping anyone off, using alternate ebay accounts to sell new collectors garbage unawares, etc. We put up with Alex's anti-social stuff for a long time and he only got banned when he started ripping off people. There was lots of straw on that camels back. He hasn't been doing anything negative in our group for years, and I hope it stays that way. Who knows, maybe he had his own personal "Come to Jesus" moment.

2. I (we) have learned from experience, that it is best left to the community to police itself. You guys have a lot more eyes and ears and can make a better determination if you want to deal with someone or not. It was suggested that we do this with Alex, but as he was too far gone, so we banned him. We have subsequently banned scammers, but in regards to someone who is just being selfish and greedy, you guys will need to work that out yourselves. You can't expect someone coming in new to know how we (used to /should ) do things around here, but you can certainly show them by example and teach them how.
If someone is being a self centered bastard, then you can A. Blast them, or B. Explain to them that "Hey, that's not how we operate around here." and show them the way. But when they come in and everyone is being cut throat, then they are going to learn from that example.

3. You want to be able to point to more than one of two pinheaded sales for Class A figures?
Use this: http://littlerubberg...e_men/index.cfm
It will keep track of what you put in, show you average prices, current average prices, trends, etc. and I designed it to combat the crap we saw with M.U.S.C.L.E.DB being abused for profit.

4. You can't do anything about prices, people running prices up, etc. You just can't. All you can do is deal with it, wait for them to burn out and wait for the cycle to start all over again. We are such a small group that as Veers has said before, the M.U.S.C.L.E. Rule of Two weighs heavy. If someone is impatient, they will pay pinheaded prices, especially if other impatient people have done that in times past. And because of that there will always be those looking to capitalize.

5. You want change? Be the change! This has been mentioned numerous times so far. Follow the Golden Rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." NOT Do unto others before they can do unto you, or Do unto others just like they did you. Be nice, be friendly, give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't jump down someone's throat because they question long standing community theories (I'm speaking specifically about how everyone jumped down Leitmotiv's throat when he was coming up with his own SR questions, although this isn't something that has only happened to him). New people come and we can't expect them to know as much as we do. We have to be willing to explain things, show them the same resources we have seen. Let them come to their own conclusions. Be friendly. Treat them the way that you want to be treated.

6. This may be my message board and server, but this is YOUR COMMUNITY. It is the way it is, because of the way all of us are (and have been). These are growing pains. Not the first time we've had them, and it won't be the last. People come, people go. People leave good legacies, people leave bad legacies. Shit happens. Some people mellow with age (Veers has toned down), some people get crabbier (like me).

I think I'll stop there.

[ironmask]

#1+#2: I agree... And I personally have tried to take the lighter handed approach with Ironoak.. And I think most would agree that, that tactic will likely never work on that guy. But, this isn't just about him... I totally agree that trying to educate newjacks should be the first priority... But, if they disregard, and continue trying to cut throats, I think they should absolutely be put on blast (and publicly). I really liked the idea of having the option to do deals out in the open, as to not get screwed. I think that would be another helpful tool in deterring that kind of cut-throat behavior.

#5+#6: Once again, I agree. And the very point of this thread wasn't so much to "Appeal to Jon so he can ban everybody with a thicker wallet than me"... It was more of a way to try to further espouse the ideas listed above, and to try to get the community acting like a community again. I 100% agree, that if you want things to change, you have to start with the man in the mirror. For some people to be billing to put in that effort, they need to see that they are not alone. Self policing is good, but that isn't what is happening. There is a lot of complaining, and petty argumentation... But there is no galvanized social ideal. I hope that putting everything out in the open, and getting people to remember why they came here in the first place, will give the community as a whole to take ownership in itself again.

[iwao]

I totally agree that trying to educate newjacks should be the first priority... But, if they disregard, and continue trying to cut throats, I think they should absolutely be put on blast (and publicly). I really liked the idea of having the option to do deals out in the open, as to not get screwed. I think that would be another helpful tool in deterring that kind of cut-throat behavior.

It's easy enough to leave negative feedback for someone or a comment on their profile even if you didn't complete a deal. Is that a good idea for publicly calling someone out? I don't think we want the board filled with threads saying, "This member asked me to pay $5 for a figure worth $0.50." I'm assuming people do look at feedback before making deals. Or people can put their personal list of members they won't deal with in their own signature. It might lead to some petty arguments, but it might also be done mostly through PMs so most of the board activity is actually toy talk.

This thread alone might initiate real change. Just give it some time and see if the same antisocial behavior continues. Maybe people will stop bidding on stuff they already own to keep the perceived value up or to make sure somebody else doesn't get a better deal. If somebody does win a spare "high ticket" item, leave them stuck with it. Don't jump at the chance to buy it off them.

[DDR]

As a noob, I lack the frame of reference to even come close to touching the pricing issue (hence my price drop thread).

However, in an effort to be positive I'd like to offer the following...
As a new-jack who's learned a lot along the way, I just want to take the opportunity to thank everyone who's taken the time to explain things and answer my many questions. In my limited experience, they are the true majority. I'm very glad that I've stuck it out and made many QUALITY community connections... Those that are founded on mutual respect, honesty & interest. I almost bailed after I got blind-sided by that bullshit avalanche

As is often true, those with issues tend to be the loudest participants... Just ignore them and let them isolate themselves. Focus on the positive relationships/exchanges and act morally yourself. Don't be reactive or waste your time trying to alter things that you're unable to change... Do what you can and forget the rest.

As I've said in previous posts,
" there will always be some balloon knot trying to break your stride, just keep doin' what you are doin'

After all people, these are toys...

Thanks for a fantastic post and quality follow-up thoughts...
This is an exceptional piece for everyone's honest self-reflection & self-assessment!

THANK YOU COMMUNITY!
D.

Edited by DDR, 01 March 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[walker13.1]

I don't think you are a "Dark Horse" so to speak... But you certainly are looking out for your investment.

I also think you're not taking into account that a large part of the argument is that the "Value" of these "High Ticket Items" has been artificially driven up over the past few years.
You're also comparing automobiles to little rubber figurines. It's an invalid analogy.

I do think it is important, if I may use a piece from your collection, to lend distinction between SC figures or Class A figures and then pieces like your Nestle can. Nobody is trying to argue the point that there ARE some high ticket items that clearly hold much more value (1:1 figures also fit into this category).
Figures that are known to exist in the high hundreds, or even thousands, selling for $100-$800? That's crazy.
You can call it "Beating a dead horse", but I think that if you go back and look at the other comments in this thread, a majority of the community is sick of it, and is ready and willing to try to change it.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I'll say it again. I can care absolutely less about the value of my M.U.S.C.L.E. figures. The reason for that is they're not for sale. Have I EVER given any indication to this board that I bought M.U.S.C.L.E. as an investment for money? Have I? Prove it if you think so. I want evidence that showed I sold something of M.U.S.C.L.E. for a big money gain. While you're looking that up, ask Stoney what I sold the SC 4 pack for and then do some research on that SC 4 pack on what it sold for. Also ask SLTJ what he traded me for a SC 4 pack and then do some research on what that one went for. Before you make an empty statement (that is what it is, empty) about me seeing M.U.S.C.L.E. as an investment you better darn well have something to back it up. Also, I have mentioned several times already that if I ever end up having to sale my M.U.S.C.L.E. figures I'll end up taking a hit. Darn near everything in my house will be sold before I do that though.

How was DE, DM, the last few SHAs, color SR, Prism Man ..... artifically inflated? They're inflated because they're not going for a price that you only are willing to pay? People will say prices of everything M.U.S.C.L.E. are inflated until all figures' value drop below $100.

Ok, the community is ready to change it. Tell me how. Explain to me how you're going to change what someone wants. When I finished with SRs I thought for sure the price of those was going to drop big time. Guess what, I was wrong. In came Ironoak and Progslut, not to mention Jay's purchase of the color SR. This doesn't bring up the people who bid it up before the last 10 seconds too. I don't think what I believe is fair to buy something should mean I should expect to only pay that amount. No, if I want to buy something, that means I put money aside into a slush fund, and I should only pay what I'm comfortable with spending on it.

Edited by vette88, 01 March 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Foxman]

Something that most people fail to mention here, is the current "trendy" resurgence of all things '80s.

If you think for a second, big hair, spandex pants and Knight Rider were all laughable and uber cheesy 10 years ago. Now...

Uber RADICAL!

Everyone wants a piece of it. Now, anything from the 80's is "valuable" hipster gold.

Plus, as time goes by, M.U.S.C.L.E. figures start disappearing and get harder and harder to find.

Those are two recent factors that are driving the prices up.

I went to the swap meet the other day and searched through literally HUNDREDS of piles of misc. toys. Found a few WWF figures and a few other things from the '80s... Not ONE SINGLE MUSCLE MAN. Not one. Crappy old NES games are like gold there. It's getting to the point where you just don't find things in the wild like you did two or three years ago. And so where do you find them now?

DEALERS.

Dealers who want mucho cash for whatever junk they have.

And guess what else? With the invention of eBay, EVERYONE is a dealer... if only for a day. Like the invention of the steel plow or the cotton gin, it's manifest destiny and you just have to deal with it rather you like it or not.

And sadly, that's just how it goes. Dealers converge on it like jackals to a fresh piece of roadkill... all wanting a piece.

It switches from a small niche of guys trying to get their old toys back to a cut throat landscape of dealers, price gougers, and back stabbers.

But, like anything else. The ones who are in it for the memories will complete their fleshy sets and move on to other cool stuff from back in the day. Anyone who wants to complete a master set is going to learn real, REAL fast that they're going to be doing a LOT of business with dealers and shady con artists.

When I started collecting again a few months ago, all I wanted was the fleshy set that I never quite secured as a kid in 1985. I got it. All of the sculpts in my favorite color... M.U.S.C.L.E. flesh. The rest I could care less about. Some of the color ones are worth money. Don't care. Not in it for the money. That's why I won't touch the color stuff with a 20 foot pole. I LIKE M.U.S.C.L.E. figures and intend on keeping it that way. To me, collecting the Class A's is kind of like doing just a "little" heroin.

NOBODY does just a "little" heroin.

And in a few years, more and more people will understand that and wash their hands of the entire thing. A master set is virtually impossible to complete for anyone who doesn't have a LOT of disposable money and even more patience. Collectors will finally come to terms with the fact that there's no profit in "chasing the M.U.S.C.L.E. dragon" and ditch it. Those who are patient and put it on the back burner for a few years will most likely be able to pick them up again some day. Or maybe not. Either way, they're just little rubber guys right?

Not anything that you should let ruin your life...

[ironmask]

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I'll say it again. I can care absolutely less about the value of my M.U.S.C.L.E. figures.

Bill, dude... I don't recall anybody (at least in this thread) calling you out. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean that you are under attack. I sent you a personal message trying to clarify that. I don't recall ever accusing you of price gouging... All I said, was that I do not see a difference between forcibly winning auctions for pieces you already have, whether it's for driving up prices or for "trading ammunition". I didn't mean for that to come of as an ad hominem attack on you, though. Relax.

As for the DM, the Mag 11, and those figures... Clearly, when you have a figure that that fits in a range from 1:1-1:10, you're going to have substantiated higher pricing... those are actual rare pieces. Nobody is trying to dispute that. We are talking about figures that are known to be out there in quantities of hundreds or even thousands, going for DM, Bonbe, or Mag 11 prices. That is crazy. OF COURSE a 1:1 or 1:2 figure is going to command a premium... The madness comes when a 1:1000 figure goes for the same price. Go back and look at the initial purple claw craze, and you will see how databases and misinformation cause the purple claw's value to be artificially inflated.

And for the "How am I going to achieve this change"? I'M not. WE are. It's even more clear to me now, that this change is something that a majority of active members are interested in... starting off, we'll have ideas, some will be good, some won't be so good. It will take a little bit of trial and error, but that is better than doing nothing. I don't think that anybody is interested in a witch hunt... we just want our hobby back.

[TheWatcher]

I think this is a great thread. It shows Ironmask is more then our resident hatemonger and bringer of evil. I fear what is being purposed will never happen tho. Collecting is a fun hobby but at the end of the day, it's collecting for ourselves. Sure we are collecting within a community, but what we acquire is for our own personal enjoyment. Eric and I had a conversation about this a few weeks back. We came up with a great allegory of how collecting has become.

As the story goes I was out driving with my family. I was making a right turn and another guy on the opposite street was also waiting to make a right turn. We both went at the same time. We both had the SAME idea to turn into the SAME lane at the SAME time. I was just a little quicker and got into the lane ahead of him or we would have collided. Collecting has beome like this situation. Everybody getting in everybody elses way. We are such a small community competing for a limited(no longer produced so therefore in limited quantities) resource(toy) that I don't think people understand how much we affect each other.

I don't make alot of money. I'm sure I represent a percentage of guys on here who have limited resources with which to collect. There are others who throw money around like no tomorrow. Those guys who inflate prices ultimately will still affect those of us who buy responsibly. There actions will impact others. How? Well Ebay sellers or anyone whois looking to sell are out to make as much money as possible. These people don't see the last 20 auctions that sold for next to nothing. They only notice the ONE auction that sold for BANK! Most people are like that. They want to get as much as they feel they are entitled to. I have always felt as long as you don't lose out what you put into it, you didn't get ripped off. Not getting market value does NOT mean you got ripped off, unless you paid market value. Even in personal sales many people will always reference current market value. Do you honestly think someone who finds a Purple Claw at a thrift store for a quarter is going to sell it for that? Hell no, it's human nature to make as much as they can.

Simply put, people collect and sell in what way works best for them. You can't force other people to change. Things are not going to change unless WE curb our OWN impulses. Sell reasonably and responsibly. STOP trying to squeeze every last penny out of people. Not everything is plastic gold. Those that pimp auctions and sell for top dollar don't give them any business. I'm sure at some point they will get the hint. You don't have to call anyone out or be confrontational. It will take some will power and personal scarifice, but things don't change unless enough people make a stand. Unfortunately I don't think enough people on this board have that will power or are willing to sacrifice!

[ironmask]

Well put. I think the general idea, is that all of this has to "start at home", so to speak.
I had a conversation with an unnamed board member, where I basically said "You can cut throats and have all of the toys, and carve out whatever you want... Or you can be patient, and be a part of the community... But you can't have both."

But yeah, it's all gotta start with the man in the mirror.


And the man in my mirror is a hate-monger and bringer of evil.

[PlasticSoul]

For the people asking what they can actually do it's really rather simple. Remove the "scumbags bastards" one by one by erasing any kind of enjoyment they get from LRG.

They won't ever get banned. Doesn't matter how many dozens of times they lie/cheat/steal and get called out cause the threads just get junked then locked. It's not the staffs job to police what happens outside of the board so they don't and that's fine.

As a community we can erase them pretty easily ourselves. We have the tools. Downvote everything they ever say in any thread ever. Don't acknowledge anything they say in any other way. Don't sell them ANYTHING or buy their crap. Shun those shits one by one by one. I am sure we'll all be surprised how quickly ego-fueled tools lose interest when they can't share and brag about their collection to everyone else.

We can't police ebay. We can't even police the buy/sell forums here. That's not what this is about anyway. How much someone pays for something or how many they already own or how much they sell stuff for is not the main problem here at all. Someone lying about other members constantly. Someone PAYING ebay sellers for other peoples names. Someone finding completed auctions and telling sellers it was worth more so should be relisted. Someone offering more money to sellers then auctions ENDED for to get the items themselves. That's the problem. Even worse is the FACT that one person has been doing all that crap and now others are doing the same thing be it in retaliation or because they feel it's the only way to "compete" with the guy doing all that shit in the first place. If as a community we shun the main offender then hopefully the ones following in his footsteps will ease off and stop that crap.

If they don't?

Then lather rinse repeat and wash the next bastard out of our hair the same exact way.

So when does it start?

The little box on the top right of my screen says i have a message from ironoak. I am not clicking on it, ever.

[PlasticSoul]

I had a big thing all typed out and posted but screw it. It's all common knowledge anyway.

[Toxoviper]

The way I see it is the board members are happy with the way things are now.

Well off member buys up all available desirable pieces of a given line then the members here line up in droves to be profited off of.

Once upon a time I tried to preach patience but fell upon nothing but def ears.

LRG's are only as valuable as we are willing to pay. If we come together as a group and refuse to over pay for these items you will watch the prices fall fast as the resellers will not be continuously profiting off us.
The collector community here rewards them for behaving in this manor. So don't blame them for giving the collectors here what there asking for.

[jkaris]

I had a big thing all typed out and posted but screw it. It's all common knowledge anyway.

I saw what you posted.

[Toxoviper]

I had a big thing all typed out and posted but screw it. It's all common knowledge anyway.

It was a great write up. You really should express it.

I saw what you posted.

I read it too.

[PlasticSoul]

I didn't want to junk this thread so i was being careful.


I...am not typing that all out again

[ironmask]

I didn't want to junk this thread so i was being careful.


I...am not typing that all out again

Jon could get it back...

[Moistsloth]

As a member of the unsocial/ethical crowd, my question for the discussion is:

Does any body else play with these things? I take a different muscle with me to work everyday, and there is no way I could survive clothes shopping with my wife, without taking Super Phoenix along.
My ultimate dream in life is to have enough muscle things so I can swim in them like Uncle Scrooge's money bin.

I hope I don't sound like too much of a weirdo, but perhaps it gives me a different perspective. I love reading all the drama and infighting. I am endlessly fascinated that there are other people in the world who care about these silly toys as much as I do. And I am not that bothered by the price gouging because I will just continue to buy the dirty, and disfigured muscles that everyone else considers worthless.