113 replies to this topic

[Biffard]

WOW!!! Veers the Counterfeit Collection on the U of Muscle looks Awesome!!! Good job and keep up the stellar work.

This is really going to be a cool project and I'm excited to see it develop!

[nanoFatato]

later today I'll send to you better pics Veers, now the answers:

1- yeah I think they could be bootleg kinkeshi, that yellow guy resembles me Black Hole though.
2- no, I collect exogini/cosmix and these are not their colors! (they are those from Doc instead)
3- upon closer inspection not at all, d'oh!

Edited by nanoFatato, 24 May 2010 - 06:46 AM.

[doc_moore_j]

Ok, now that I'm sorting through pictures I need a little help. If anyone can answer these questions before the person I pose them too – that would be a huge help.

Doc:
The 7th picture (second from the left, bottom row) those figures are cosmix/exogini, right?
And the rest of the figures, that are MUSCLE sculpts, are random bootlegs?

I think they are Future men, they are not from my exogini collection and dont think the sculpts are exogini (id have to check) or the colors the same as exogini.

The other figures are random bootlegs yes, some from hong kong, some from china etc...

Ok I just looked, the sculpts are exohini, but the colors are not from what I know about exogini.

[nanoFatato]

they are cosmix, basically they came out in four color in France: Pearl Green/Turquoise, Pearl Pink/Rose, Light Flesh/Blanc and Black/Noire,
but every once in a while a figure in other colors (transparent orange, transparent green, transparent violet and transparent yellow) pops up, and they are quite rare among collectors!

... hope this helps!

[walker13.1]

First, thank you to all the people helping with this project. I actually feel overwhelmed with pictures and information – but that's a good thing and I hope it doesn't deter anyone from sending in pictures of their figures. I think this virtual collection is going to turn out great!

Among the list of questions I've already posted, I have one more. Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?

As I've said before I see both sides of this argument. My belief is that we do not include the above mentioned figures. While I have several reasons for that belief, I think it hinges on two main points:
1. Marty and Wolf are creating custom pieces, not designed for mass retail. While both technically copy MUSCLE figures the goal is not to delude people into thinking they are authentic. I believe the majority of counterfeit MUSCLE figures were designed to be close enough to have parents and children not care or even not notice.
2. Exogini-like figures were released, unlicensed, by as an actual product. A company took the time to structure them as a brand for their company. I see them as similar to Uzay Star Wars figures. While both are unlicensed reproductions, their quality and comprehensiveness somehow given them a different identity than crudely made cheap knock-offs.

But as this is everyone's virtual collection I wanted to get a sense of what people thought.

Veers, just an idea, but maybe a write up with pictures of peoples' creative figures from Marty and Wolf (to extend beyond MUSCLE)?

[Nyarlathotep]

Among the list of questions I've already posted, I have one more. Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?

As I've said before I see both sides of this argument. My belief is that we do not include the above mentioned figures. While I have several reasons for that belief, I think it hinges on two main points:
1. Marty and Wolf are creating custom pieces, not designed for mass retail. While both technically copy MUSCLE figures the goal is not to delude people into thinking they are authentic. I believe the majority of counterfeit MUSCLE figures were designed to be close enough to have parents and children not care or even not notice.
2. Exogini-like figures were released, unlicensed, by as an actual product. A company took the time to structure them as a brand for their company. I see them as similar to Uzay Star Wars figures. While both are unlicensed reproductions, their quality and comprehensiveness somehow given them a different identity than crudely made cheap knock-offs.

But as this is everyone's virtual collection I wanted to get a sense of what people thought.

I think you've totally nailed some of the big differences in #1 there between customs and boots. Everything is really different, from the production scale, to promotion and intention.

I think #2 is a little more subjective, but would still agree with them being separate, if more for the spirit of the thing than for technical differences. Cosmix and Exogini have their own brand identity, even if they technically are copies. I think they are in their own category, even if it's a little hard to define concretely.

[walker13.1]

You mean something like this?

Yup, didn't know already there.

[nanoFatato]

this is my opinion, the exogini/cosmix line is without a doubt an unlicensed property, thanks to the fact that the YSNT mark isn't present, on the other hand in terms of distribution, marketing (commercials on TV, magazines) and availability of the products the line had a moment of absolutely supremacy in the toy market, generating a series of knock-off like 'cosmogeni', 'aliogeni' and so on.

Maybe a good way to identify a bootleg line is to compare the market in different countries, here in Italy the Exogini was not a line sold in gumball vending machines, but was sold under the italian leader of toys at that time (GiG, acquired later by Giochi Preziosi, the brand of Gormiti) and generated a hype never saw, only recently the same kind of hype was reached by Gormiti one or two years ago, now even the lords of nature begun to weaken.

The customs should be not included too, they are not mass produced and they not have a wide distribution.

[SmokinGun]

The customs should be not included too, they are not mass produced and they not have a wide distribution.

I agree with his statment. I have to say customs are not bootlegs.

[Soupie]

I agree with his statment. I have to say customs are not bootlegs.

It's not really a matter of opinion actually. A rose by any other name is still a rose. "Customs" are unauthorized, exact copies of toy figures sold for profit. That also happens to what bootleg toys are, haha.

The only question here is whether this type of bootleg MUSCLE should be included in Veers/Biffard's project.

Personally I think they should be included because TGB only ever reproduced popular MUSCLE sculpts such as MEAT, SC, Claw, and Sunshine. these also happen to be sculpts that weren't often reproduced by Asian bootleggers. in short, you may need TGB's figures to complete the set.

[SmokinGun]

It's not really a matter of opinion actually. A rose by any other name is still a rose. "Customs" are unauthorized, exact copies of toy figures sold for profit. That also happens to what bootleg toys are, haha.

The only question here is whether this type of bootleg MUSCLE should be included in Veers/Biffard's project.

Personally I think they should be included because TGB only ever reproduced popular MUSCLE sculpts such as MEAT, SC, Claw, and Sunshine. these also happen to be sculpts that weren't often reproduced by Asian bootleggers. in short, you may need TGB's figures to complete the set.

So what your saying is glow in the dark, mixed colors, GITD, growing, black light reactive, magetic or other type of attribute customs figures are bootlegs. It just dosent make any sense. They been customize in a way. It doesnt fall in a bootleg/counterfeit catagory.

[jkaris]

So what your saying is glow in the dark, mixed colors, GITD, growing, black light reactive, magetic or other type of attribute customs figures are bootlegs. It just dosent make any sense. They been customize in a way. It doesnt fall in a bootleg/counterfeit catagory.

A bootleg is any unlicensed reproduction. Pretty straight forward.

[Biffard]

Do we include Exogini-type figures and Marty/Wolf figures?

I agree 100% with soupie with the fact that exogini and customs are bootlegs. No doubt about it they are the definition of bootlegs no matter what we call them.

However, to answer veers's question, I say they should not be included in the Counterfeit Collection. While they are technically bootlegs, I think they fall under a sub-categorization of bootlegs and deserve their own attention due to their origins and history. Exogini were mass produced and marketed so their history is fairly well known. Customs usually are not mass produced but their history and origins are usually easily identified. Most other bootlegs are missing the explanations of their origins and history and are more questionable in nature because of all the mystery surrounding them. That is why, in my opinion, exogini and customs should be considered sub-categorizations of bootlegs and thus excluded from this particular project.

Now for my contradiction, sort of. I personally think that in order to complete a full set of muscle figure bootlegs exogini and/or customs will have to be included. However for veer's and my projects the goal is to see if a complete set is even obtainable. I think as time and documentation continues we will reach a point that in order to complete a full set of all 233 bootlegs, we will have to include customs and/or exogini but for right now we should exclude them just to see if it is even possible with the more "mysterious in nature" bootlegs.

I'm glad we are trying to clear this up and figure out what's what a little better and someone please respond if they think differently than me. I'm excited to see this topic evolve and I hope others will post their opinions so we can get more feedback

Edited by Biffard, 25 May 2010 - 06:18 PM.

[Ericnilla]

I myself would rather see a bootleg set with vintage figures rather than new customs, ie marty/ wolfs figs... or maybe just use them as space fillers till vintage ones are found and documented.

[Nyarlathotep]

A bootleg is any unlicensed reproduction. Pretty straight forward.

Quite true, but at the same time the literal definition isn't a straight jacket here. I think there's some consensus that there are different "styles" and this project can target whichever one they want.

[Ericnilla]

Here are a few of mine... the rest are boxed up somewhere.

 DSC00129.JPG   553.46K   29 downloads

Edited by Ericnilla, 27 May 2010 - 01:37 PM.

[Doctor Dew]

Ok, what I'm hearing is - the goal will be to complete the counterfeit set without Exogini-type figures nor figures made by Wolf and Marty.

However, if there comes a point where it appears that the set cannot be completed without those figures, then there are not any objections to using them. And the goal would still remain to replace and Exogini, Wolf, and/or Mart figures if they are ever used.

In my opinion, this is the way to go.

This is a really interesting project, good stuff everyone.
I vaguely recall having some bootlegs a few years ago and I think I might have traded them to fuzzbuster, that mad fool!

[stoneyface]

veers has an excellent solution. i agree 100%

[jkaris]

There are legit hot pink kinkeshi, and there are bootleg pink kinkeshi. So, depending on the figure, it may or may not be a bootleg.