105 replies to this topic

[Leitmotiv]

Okay, well I see your points too.

I will add though that the research into retailer incentive has little to no proof backing it. I think the very article that states that, also mentions that this was not very common back then, and certainly nothing that Mattel had really done up to that point.

Very rare one-offs as an incentive makes very little sense to retailers. As far as we know they were not packaged and advertised as such, nor were they sold for higher price. So where is the incentive? There is none! These retailers aren't collectors and they are in it to make money. Getting one lousy rare figure that can't be sold at retail is more of a hassle than anything else. I reiterate that, they would lose money trying to achieve the incentive goal. Like say, they need to buy 40 24-packs... just to get one rare figure. The math doesn't work. Incentives are typically targeted at mom & pop shops, and small collector stores. Big box stores don't care about something they can't sell. But they do like exclusives!

There has to be another theory on these. I never heard the choking hazard... that's a strong possibility, but it has flaws too. Why cut half the figure (the choking part) and maintain the other half that far into production if you are that skeptical to begin with. And they must have been skeptical, because not many got into production. Seems a little odd. But, Japanese culture is a little bizarre...

[jmckinnon316]

I have no idea what is going on in this thread.

lol!!

[imperfecz]

I have no idea what is going on in this thread.

Starting from scratch a discussion that's been going on since long before I ever heard of LRG.....



But tossing aside any research or threads of discussion or interviews or anything really... from scratch.

[Leitmotiv]

Starting from scratch a discussion that's been going on since long before I ever heard of LRG.....

But tossing aside any research or threads of discussion or interviews or anything really... from scratch.

I'm not tossing aside "anything really." I've read the stuff that came before... and I may not have gotten all of my facts straight, but I do see some flaws in the logic of some of the research. I also seem to be noting that some of you here are disregarding certain aspects of the research in favor of other aspects. See my previous post about the research doubting the validity of the incentive program as well as Mattel not even giving a hoot for the product. Yet, some are pushing it like no doubt exists.

Yet, we still haven't heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

[jkaris]

I think a new perspective is beneficial. It's a fresh pair of eyes looking at what we have been digging up over the years.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

Very rare one-offs as an incentive makes very little sense to retailers. As far as we know they were not packaged and advertised as such, nor were they sold for higher price. So where is the incentive? There is none! These retailers aren't collectors and they are in it to make money. Getting one lousy rare figure that can't be sold at retail is more of a hassle than anything else. I reiterate that, they would lose money trying to achieve the incentive goal. Like say, they need to buy 40 24-packs... just to get one rare figure. The math doesn't work. Incentives are typically targeted at mom & pop shops, and small collector stores. Big box stores don't care about something they can't sell. But they do like exclusives!

That is a very good point and something I thought about when I first read Veer's interview. The special figures are an incentive to whom? It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Big retailers wouldn't care about them. The special figures were never advertised, so what's the point? Who gains from the special figures--clearly the retailers didn't. So it just doesn't add up. They were never advertised. Never promoted in any way to encourage people to buy MUSCLEs at special retailer where a buyer might get lucky and find a special figure. Without incentive or any advertising, this explanation just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think there are two likely explanations:

1. As other people have mentioned, maybe the special figures were just Satan Crosses. This would explain why they have been found in 4-packs. And the other Super Rares were just ideas that never materialized in the North American market.

2. Or, maybe the special figures were all of the Super Rares, but the only reason why they were never advertised was because the MUSCLE line came to such an abrupt end. There was simply never a chance to promote them or release them to very many retailers. And this is why only a handful of them were ever released.

Edited by CuttleFishforsale, 22 July 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[clonewars]

I remember a special. You had to buy alot of muscles, and they would give you the rare one for free. Most people didn't buy that many, so the stores ended up throwing them away. I believe it was Kay-Bee toy store in the mall.

[Ericnilla]

also, kinnikuman was already in Japan... maybe they saw the was they were being collected there and hoped they would be collected in the same way. Seems obvious since they released a poster showing off all available in the US. So some kids would obviously come across a non poster figure with excitement of having something different and rare. idk

[halfaway]

theroy -
they were made in the same factory & same molds --- so
they thought hey, lets change kinnikuman rubber to american rubber, its more durable why not!
they did test runs of the figures in the firmer rubber
but decided to keep with the softer rubber for Kinnikuman figures
then those test figures were just tossed in with other muscles
maybe ??
........probably not

Edited by halfaway, 22 July 2011 - 02:31 PM.

[mrjayberry]

Leitmotive-Now what is your theory on certain colored muscles, who are just as hard to find as the more "common" rares/super rares.

[Ridureyu]

Probably not, because just about all Keshi, Kinnikuman included, are made from the same or similar rubber (although some are harder and less eraserlike). In fact, IIRC, "keshi" were originally meant to be erasers. Yeah. MUSCLEs as erasers. So no, I doubt they tried a test run in Japan with the new MUSCLE substance, since kinkeshi were really more-or-less related to the other keshi lines already in existence.

[Leitmotiv]

Leitmotive-Now what is your theory on certain colored muscles, who are just as hard to find as the more "common" rares/super rares.

I don't have a theory for that. It's not much of interest to me. I do think though, that naturally, some figures will eventually become less available than others over time due to multiple reasons.

Some may include natural favorites of kids and collectors, while others are ignored, destroyed, or lost. Eventually, over a long period of time, I would think statistically you will have more of some figures and less of others. Also, the company producing colored figures in a dying toy line may start off with various colors, but end up with too much green dye product (for example) and will stop making other colors they ran out as they still need to use up the remaining dyes rather than let it go to waste. Just a possibility. A scenario such as that will naturally make green figures common and the others less so.

Dunno really! I'm sure existing theories on the colors have some merit. But it's not as fascinating to me as the different molds of the "rares."

It's just concerning to me in the age of customization and new independent toymakers in the last 5 to 10 years, that all of a sudden we have new Muscles popping up. I don't think we should rule out the possibility that there is some talent out there capable of doing good bootlegs. Perhaps these are Muscles that somehow got distributed in Japan only and somehow made their way to the states.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 25 July 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

Why couldn't someone make customs of the super rares? Identical plastic? Identical color? A stamp on the back? I'm surprised someone hasn't done it yet. Even if it cost them a couple hundred per figure, who's to say they wouldn't do it just to sell the figures at $1000+ per piece?

[Ericnilla]

because its almost impossible. You would need a commercial grade injectable Pvc gum rubber with the exact firmness as muscles and the exact PANTONE color along with a metal mold to inject into. PT flex poly rubber that a few on the board use is quite different.

I have many muscle bootlegs (american and japanese) and some get close, but they are easily identified as not legit, being either the rubber or color. Some get real close, but they are still off. except Japanese bootlegs, you can easily tell since they are trying to mimic the keshi rubber, not muscle rubber. plus the rubber they use has shrinkage, so when you put a boot next to a real fig, its smaller.

classified bootlegs on UofM -- http://blog.uofmuscle.com/?p=7102

and all bootleg talk -- http://blog.uofmuscle.com/?tag=bootleg

Edited by Ericnilla, 26 July 2011 - 10:16 AM.

[Ridureyu]

I'd love some repros of a few Super-Rare sculpts. Make 'em durable even if they don'thave to be EXACTLY MUSCLE plastic.

ANYWAY.

I think that Satan Cross was probably the premium for big orders, only they never advertised this properly to retailers, and retailers never properly said, "We have a special rare figure!" (I mean, it's just MUSCLEs, not anything BIG) This would jive with its 4-pack appearances, as well as REASONABLY rarer appearances.

Edited by Ridureyu, 26 July 2011 - 10:30 AM.

[Leitmotiv]

I'd love some repros of a few Super-Rare sculpts. Make 'em durable even if they don'thave to be EXACTLY MUSCLE plastic.

ANYWAY.

I think that Satan Cross was probably the premium for big orders, only they never advertised this properly to retailers, and retailers never properly said, "We have a special rare figure!" (I mean, it's just MUSCLEs, not anything BIG) This would jive with its 4-pack appearances, as well as REASONABLY rarer appearances.

Yeah the consensus in this thread seems to be leaning towards unauthorized Mattel product rather than bootlegs. But that's no reason to let your guard down.

Also, again, a premium for retailers makes little to no monetary sense to commercial retailers. They can't sell premiums, so there is no incentive. They'd only lose money. Remember, retailers are not collectors or even toy enthusiasts.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

Yeah the consensus in this thread seems to be leaning towards unauthorized Mattel product rather than bootlegs. But that's no reason to let your guard down.

Also, again, a premium for retailers makes little to no monetary sense to commercial retailers. They can't sell premiums, so there is no incentive. They'd only lose money. Remember, retailers are not collectors or even toy enthusiasts.

It makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to offer big retailers premium figures that can be found only at those retailers that placed large enough orders. Exclusive figures attract big business. Unfortunately, the line ended so quickly and abruptly that retailers never had an opportunity to advertise the special figures. Advertising exclusive figures attracts buyers. We know that from chase cards in card packs in the 80s and 90s, chase figures in various toy lines in the present day, etc. Exclusive products are a great marketing gimmick to attract kids and collectors alike, and it's been going on for decades. The abrupt and premature cancellation of the MUSCLE line offers a perfect explanation for why retailers never had an opportunity to advertise the super rare figures.

I understand if you want to dismiss my speculation, because, hey, I have about as much inside knowledge on MUSCLEs as you do and I am just speculating. What I do not understand is how you can be so damn arrogant to completely dismiss the interview from the the UofM blog with Joe Morrison--the guy who actually oversaw the marketing of the MUSCLE line as VP of marketing for Mattel--WHO STATED THE SUPER RARE FIGURES WERE EXCLUSIVE FIGURES FOR RETAILERS THAT PLACED LARGE ENOUGH ORDERS.

Edited by CuttleFishforsale, 26 July 2011 - 01:25 PM.

[Ridureyu]

yeah. "Exclusive figure" just means that, if they had the presence of mind to advertise it, they might get more customers buying 4-packs. Since most kids wouldn't have a poster, the intention would IDEALLY tp cause a Wonka-rush. Or at least something. It's not much different from current store exclusives, except we're dealing with a semi-random product.

[Ericnilla]

Yeah the consensus in this thread seems to be leaning towards unauthorized Mattel product rather than bootlegs. But that's no reason to let your guard down.

Also, again, a premium for retailers makes little to no monetary sense to commercial retailers. They can't sell premiums, so there is no incentive. They'd only lose money. Remember, retailers are not collectors or even toy enthusiasts.

i don't see them losing money since the figure(s) would be packaged in with the normal figs... and the only thing that makes him/them an abnormality is that they arent on the poster. If there was never a poster released noting the specific US set, we would just think they are the rarer ones in the set. Other than thinking they are rare extras/ errors, etc...

But the theory that they are Unauthorized releases is also highly a possibility. But does that take anything away from the fact they are still Muscles, just not from the initial set~?

[ComradeCuttlefish]

yeah. "Exclusive figure" just means that, if they had the presence of mind to advertise it, they might get more customers buying 4-packs. Since most kids wouldn't have a poster, the intention would IDEALLY tp cause a Wonka-rush. Or at least something. It's not much different from current store exclusives, except we're dealing with a semi-random product.

haha Yeah, apparently Leitmotiv has never read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Or maybe he has read it but it didn't occur to him that if old Willy Wonka had gone out of business or if he had scrapped his line of chocolates that stores probably wouldn't have bothered advertising the golden ticket.

[Leitmotiv]

haha Yeah, apparently Leitmotiv has never read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Or maybe he has read it but it didn't occur to him that if old Willy Wonka had gone out of business or if he had scrapped his line of chocolates that stores probably wouldn't have bothered advertising the golden ticket.

I think you're not really understanding what I'm saying. As "super rare" as these figures are, no retailer offered these up for sale at their store afawk. If they were included in regular packaging, neither the retailer nor the customer would have any clue and the price would remain the same. Since no special advertising was done (Kaybee Toys the exception?? I want to see those ads), where is the draw?

Premiums and Incentive figures are different from Exclusives. Exclusives are a newer idea formed specifically for certain retailers on a mass scale (i.e. Wal-Mart's Jabba the Hutt figure). Exclusives are still abundant, but you can only buy them at a certain store. Incentive figures are designed specifically to make retailers buy more product, with no specific retailer in mind.

So basically the scenario you are describing is this: Toys 'r Us has to order 100 28-packs to get that super duper rare one off figure. So they spent all that money to get one lousy figure. Did that one figure get its own special packaging and retail for a higher price? Did it get included in regular packaging? Was it loose and meant only for the retailer as a collector's item? In all three scenarios I see no benefit to the retailer. I see that they lose lots of money on over-ordering product that probably won't sell because of peg warming, and second they have one special little figure they can't advertise, sell, or do anything with.

Doesn't make sense.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 26 July 2011 - 02:05 PM.

[Ridureyu]

But Toys R Us would already order 100 28-packs. They wouldn't do it for the extra figure. Ideally, getting to advertise "With rare figure!" would be a bonus, not something they aimed to do.

No money lost.


Mind you, I'm just talking about things like Satan Cross specifically, which has been confirmed to appear in 4-packs.

Edited by Ridureyu, 26 July 2011 - 02:00 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

It makes perfect sense for a manufacturer to offer big retailers premium figures that can be found only at those retailers that placed large enough orders. Exclusive figures attract big business. Unfortunately, the line ended so quickly and abruptly that retailers never had an opportunity to advertise the special figures. Advertising exclusive figures attracts buyers. We know that from chase cards in card packs in the 80s and 90s, chase figures in various toy lines in the present day, etc. Exclusive products are a great marketing gimmick to attract kids and collectors alike, and it's been going on for decades. The abrupt and premature cancellation of the MUSCLE line offers a perfect explanation for why retailers never had an opportunity to advertise the super rare figures.

I understand if you want to dismiss my speculation, because, hey, I have about as much inside knowledge on MUSCLEs as you do and I am just speculating. What I do not understand is how you can be so damn arrogant to completely dismiss the interview from the the UofM blog with Joe Morrison--the guy who actually oversaw the marketing of the MUSCLE line as VP of marketing for Mattel--WHO STATED THE SUPER RARE FIGURES WERE EXCLUSIVE FIGURES FOR RETAILERS THAT PLACED LARGE ENOUGH ORDERS.

Wow, sorry to hear you shouting and getting so angry and defensive. These are just toys I remind you. Nope, I'm not arrogant, but I also don't think you've read this entire thread, otherwise you would note how I pointed out that same article you make reference too, also doubts the validity of that hypothesis you presented from said article. But many here seem to disregard that little bit. And again, that article is not definitive. Not by a long shot.

Now, keep with the pleasantries. And relax.

[Leitmotiv]

But Toys R Us would already order 100 28-packs. They wouldn't do it for the extra figure. Ideally, getting to advertise "With rare figure!" would be a bonus, not something they aimed to do.

No money lost.


Mind you, I'm just talking about things like Satan Cross specifically, which has been confirmed to appear in 4-packs.

Your comment makes sense... but these are more than just rare figures... they're like mythically, legendarily, esoterically rare. So rare in fact, that you won't find one in your package unless lightning strikes you (not once, but three times). So it's very doubtful that any packaging or advertising said "with Rare figure." Even the Satans Cross in the 4pack didn't say "with rare."

By the way, the 50 or 100 order limit to receive the rare figure was an arbitrary number. Whatever that number is, 100 or 1000, makes little difference. But it had to a be high enough figure since not many of these rares exist, therefore, very little retailers took advantage of the alleged incentive program.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 26 July 2011 - 02:09 PM.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

I think you're not really understanding what I'm saying. As "super rare" as these figures are, no retailer offered these up for sale at their store asawk. If they were included in regular packaging, neither the retailer nor the customer would have any clue and the price would remain the same. Since no special advertising was done (Kaybee Toys the exception?? I want to see those ads), where is the draw?

Premiums and Incentive figures are different from Exclusives. Exclusives are a newer idea formed specifically for certain retailers on a mass scale (i.e. Wal-Mart's Jabba the Hutt figure). Exclusives are still abundant, but you can only buy them at a certain store. Incentive figures are designed specifically to make retailers buy more product, with no specific retailer in mind.

So basically the scenario you are describing is this: Toys 'r Us has to order 100 24-packs to get that super duper rare one off figure. So they spent all that money to get one lousy figure. Did that one figure get its own special packaging and retail for a higher price? Did it get included in regular packaging? Was it loose and meant only for the retailer as a collector's item? In all three scenarios I see no benefit to the retailer. I see that they lose lots of money on over-ordering product that probably won't sell because of peg warming, and second they have one special little figure they can't advertise, sell, or do anything with.

Doesn't make sense.

I don't think you understand us, Johnnie Cochran. It DOES make sense. MUSCLEs were cancelled in North America barely after they were released. That's why more advertising dollars were never wasted on promoting the chance at finding a super rare figure.

Joe Morrison stated the super rare figures were given only to retailers who placed large enough orders. Whether this means Toysrus was given one super rare in its case assortments exclusive only to Toyrsus and Kaybee toys was given another super rare exclusive only to it, or if all big retailers received super rares mixed in with, say, each pallet of MUSCLEs they ordered, we don't know for sure. But that doesn't really matter. If Toysrus received one super rare and Kaybee a different super rare, they each would have advertised the opportunity to find a special figure only at their stores. If all big retailers received premium super rare(s) in every pallet of cases they ordered, they would have advertised slightly more generically the opportunity to find various super rares. But this advertising never happened because of the precipitous and abrupt decline of the MUSCLE line. RETAILERS NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO ADVERTISE SUPER RARES BECAUSE THE MUSCLE LINE ENDED SO QUICKLY. That's why they didn't bother wasting money advertising a dead line more than they already had.

PS Exclusives for specific retailers are most certainly not a new marketing tool. The Hit & Run GI Joe in 1988 was released in a special version at Target stores only. http://www.yojoe.com...runtarget.shtml

Even before that, an exclusive Missile Command Headquarters was released as a Sears Exclusive in 1982. http://www.yojoe.com...les/82/cobrahq/

Then again, in 1988 and 1989, the GI Joe Night Force line was released exclusive to Toysrus.

So, no, "store exclusives" are not new.

Edited by CuttleFishforsale, 26 July 2011 - 02:34 PM.