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Intellectual Property/Moose Toys Discussion


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#1 plasticfiend

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:49 PM

Yeah - that pizza dude is awesome and strangely similar to Eddieinthecity's snack attack line!  

(which he pitched to Moose prior to their action figure line)

 

Moose told him they weren't interested in an action figure line if I remember correctly...

 

I don't normally get holier than thou w/ toys... but I think some shady shit went down there.

 

(and by all means if I am getting my story wrong on this someone feel free to correct me)

 

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#2 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:58 PM

Yeah - that pizza dude is awesome and strangely similar to Eddieinthecity's snack attack line!  

(which he pitched to Moose prior to their action figure line)

 

Moose told him they weren't interested in an action figure line if I remember correctly...

 

I don't normally get holier than thou w/ toys... but I think some shady shit went down there.

 

(and by all means if I am getting my story wrong on this someone feel free to correct me)

 

PF

 

Thanks for spreading the word man. Yeah they told me they didn't want to change the scale of their figures when I presented to them in February 2016. Then after I had my Jazwings campaign up, they had months to prep their new line and get it out for Toy Fair before I could tackle that market. I'm sure when my animation comes out, people will say its a Moose rip off and I am prepared for that.

 

On that not. I'm glad they look like Moose's tired overdone gross styling.


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#3 ironmask

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:03 PM

I mean, I can see why they wouldn't go for a new line that mirrors their existing cash cow... I'd be interested in seeing the paper trail of them stating that they weren't interested in scaling up their figures... if Eddie had any type of copyright prior to pitching to Moose, could be grounds for a suit.

Kind of a shitty feeling though, feeling like somebody is misappropriating your intellectual property, huh?
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#4 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:34 PM

I mean, I can see why they wouldn't go for a new line that mirrors their existing cash cow... I'd be interested in seeing the paper trail of them stating that they weren't interested in scaling up their figures... if Eddie had any type of copyright prior to pitching to Moose, could be grounds for a suit.

Kind of a shitty feeling though, feeling like somebody is misappropriating your intellectual property, huh?

 

I met them at their booth at Toy Fair last year. Showed them my presentation and figures. They said "not interested". Its just funny now they just added in bigger figures, fighting theme and weapons after I showed them Snack Attack.

 

Everyone in the toy industry knows Moose steals concepts and only makes deals with their close allies. There's nothing I can do legally. They have the money and power to get it out faster than me and salt the land for anyone trying to compete. I will do my best to make sure my line is superior, even if i don't have the following that Moose does. 


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#5 stoffhimel

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 09:20 PM

I like yours better, Eddie. it lacks the quick cash grab feel of moose's. 


Edited by stoffhimel, 16 July 2017 - 09:32 PM.

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#6 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:41 AM

I like yours better, Eddie. it lacks the quick cash grab feel of moose's. 

 

Thanks man. I appreciate that.


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#7 stoffhimel

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:57 AM

Your welcome.


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#8 ironmask

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:32 PM

I moved this part of the discussion here, to keep it from derailing the thread for those that ARE interested in Moose's Grossery Gang full sized figures. Please feel free to continue, as long as the discourse stays civil.
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#9 stoffhimel

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 07:33 PM

I just heard on a pixel dan video that the grocery gang is getting a youtube movie. This is starting to sound spiteful on moose's end, Eddie.


Edited by stoffhimel, 17 July 2017 - 07:55 PM.

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#10 Bones

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:46 AM

I don't think moose really cares enough to be spiteful.

And just playing devils advocate...hasnt eddie and many others copied plenty of others work to sell? It happens all the time.
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#11 plasticfiend

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:56 AM

I don't think moose really cares enough to be spiteful.

And just playing devils advocate...hasnt eddie and many others copied plenty of others work to sell? It happens all the time.

 

Yeah I don't think it's spiteful - just business as usual for Moose.  If they see a good idea, and they can get away with it - they are gonna run w/ it.  

 

The moral entanglement of copying other intellectual property aside (which I'm gonna sides step if possible), the scale of something like this vs a guy making a dozen resin  battle toad figures in his garage to sell are very different.  Again, not saying the Battletoads are ok - but bringing another persons work to market in such a large scale way can be much more damaging as it has the potential to pretty much damn the success of the original line.  Potentially anyhow.  I'm certainly not predicting any doom or gloom for Eddie's line of figures - I think they are fantastic and I hope the succeed wildly!

 

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#12 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:34 AM

I don't think moose really cares enough to be spiteful.

And just playing devils advocate...hasnt eddie and many others copied plenty of others work to sell? It happens all the time.

 

 I am a toy inventor. I work in the industry. I present concepts to companies. I showed it to them and they made something similar. SOOOOOOO NOT the same as me making a figure of someones licensed character. They potentially killed any chance my line has in the retail market now. They may not be being spiteful but they are certainly trying to cover all the areas and dilute my chances of competition.


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#13 Bones

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:48 AM

I didn't mean any disrespect...just stating the fact that it's the nature of any business. Look at at Apple or IBM or Eddison and Tesla for that matter.

It's ruthless and cut throathroat.
Its been happening and will continue to happen.

Sorry that they're cracks of doom

Edited by Bones, 18 July 2017 - 09:12 AM.

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#14 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:52 AM

I didn't mean any disrespect...just stating the fact that it's the nature of any business. Look at at Apple or IBM or Eddison and Tessa for that matter.

It's ruthless and cut throathroat.
Its been happening and will continue to happen.

Sorry that they're cracks of doom

 

Its cool. They pulled a scumbag move is all and it wasn't the first time. I no longer deal with Moose cuz of this. I work with their direct competitors now.


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#15 plasticfiend

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:40 PM

LMAO...

 

"cracks of doom"

 

Oooooohhh... I wish I could read the uncensored version!

 

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#16 stoffhimel

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 05:42 PM

Perhaps spiteful was the wrong word. Its does seem like they consider you a threat, Eddie.


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#17 ironmask

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:00 PM

Yeah I don't think it's spiteful - just business as usual for Moose.  If they see a good idea, and they can get away with it - they are gonna run w/ it.  
 
The moral entanglement of copying other intellectual property aside (which I'm gonna sides step if possible), the scale of something like this vs a guy making a dozen resin  battle toad figures in his garage to sell are very different.  Again, not saying the Battletoads are ok - but bringing another persons work to market in such a large scale way can be much more damaging as it has the potential to pretty much damn the success of the original line.  Potentially anyhow.  I'm certainly not predicting any doom or gloom for Eddie's line of figures - I think they are fantastic and I hope the succeed wildly!
 
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I don't see why people were downvoting Bones' post.
It's a fair question to ask, especially when it seems like the line arbitrarily shifts depending on who can profit and when. I've been around a long time, and I still don't see the difference between stealing a concept or an outright IP. It might not be the exact same, but we're kind of picking the pepper out of fly shit, in trying to establish degrees of stealing toy ideas. If you took it from somebody else without compensating them for it, it's shitty. Period.
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#18 mannakat

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:15 PM

This stuff gets nasty even with defunct IPs. Unfortunately it's also conceivable that Eddies line could have been viewed as a derivative work and they might have gone after him if he beat them to production.


Edited by mannakat, 18 July 2017 - 08:54 PM.

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#19 Draznar

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 05:10 AM

I don't see why people were downvoting Bones' post.
It's a fair question to ask, especially when it seems like the line arbitrarily shifts depending on who can profit and when. I've been around a long time, and I still don't see the difference between stealing a concept or an outright IP. It might not be the exact same, but we're kind of picking the pepper out of fly shit, in trying to establish degrees of stealing toy ideas. If you took it from somebody else without compensating them for it, it's shitty. Period.

 

In the US you are free from copyright laws as long as it is somehow different from the source material, no? Artistic freedom and all that? Maybe I don't understand the laws correctly.

However, let's take a very brief look at the third party Transformers as a prime example. Those are characters that are directly "ripping off" a major, global franchise that is still on-going today. I'm going to assume that Has/Tak isn't unwilling to pursue these companies, but that they are unable to do so. They change the names of the 3P characters and take some artistic liberties so that they're slightly different from the source material. It's a HUGE market with a ton of money in it, so nobody can argue it would be unprofitable for them to pursue it either.

What Eddie does is honestly not much different, except it's on a significantly smaller scale. I don't think anybody here can call any of his work a direct copy of any existing IP he has "copied."


Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Eddie never presented his idea to Moose. Everybody knows they keep their eyes on competition, and they very clearly knew about the campaign that was run and was successful. They are very clearly trying to snuff out their competition before it becomes competition. It's a really shitty thing to do, but not at all unexpected for a large company either. (Moose or not, all large companies would try and stifle competition like this.)


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#20 ironmask

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 07:20 AM

If you are trying to use third party transformers as a justification for jacking somebody's creations/property, then I am afraid I can't really follow, because I don't see that shit as justified either. But hey, it's way easier to turn a buck off of somebody else's good idea than it is to risk your own ass on your own ideas/work.
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#21 mannakat

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:14 AM

In the US you are free from copyright laws as long as it is somehow different from the source material, no? Artistic freedom and all that? Maybe I don't understand the laws correctly.

However, let's take a very brief look at the third party Transformers as a prime example. Those are characters that are directly "ripping off" a major, global franchise that is still on-going today. I'm going to assume that Has/Tak isn't unwilling to pursue these companies, but that they are unable to do so. They change the names of the 3P characters and take some artistic liberties so that they're slightly different from the source material. It's a HUGE market with a ton of money in it, so nobody can argue it would be unprofitable for them to pursue it either.

What Eddie does is honestly not much different, except it's on a significantly smaller scale. I don't think anybody here can call any of his work a direct copy of any existing IP he has "copied."


Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Eddie never presented his idea to Moose. Everybody knows they keep their eyes on competition, and they very clearly knew about the campaign that was run and was successful. They are very clearly trying to snuff out their competition before it becomes competition. It's a really shitty thing to do, but not at all unexpected for a large company either. (Moose or not, all large companies would try and stifle competition like this.)

 

Generally whatever it is needs to vary by at least 30% from the original, that isn't a rule per-say but is recommended. Application/use can also be called into it too. Parodies can come under fire no matter what you do with it.

 

International copyright is hinky. It's acknowledge by treaties and technically is automatically applied to any US copyright, but having countries enforcing it is where the issues are. Some don't acknowledge those treaties at all, which can make things very difficult to do deal with.

Has/Tak might not see the point in pursuing them either, if it's a smaller scale company pumping those guys out they could disband and reassemble multiple times and still keep doing what they're doing. It'd be a huge time and money sink, if the product isn't as easily/readily available they might not even be worried about the loss in profits. Specially if the quality isn't anywhere as good. Fan loyalty helps too.

 

Some of his minis could come under fire, but it's unlikely. Battle Toads, for example, could have a cease and desist slapped on em.

 

The problem is, if they can prove that he made those figures while being fully aware of theirs, they could argue it's a derivative work and still keep him from producing those figures... then turn around and use the ideas for themselves. They might try to claim it was too heavily inspired by their product and would confuse consumers. Even if none of that were true and he had never heard of or seen their line of toys, they could still pull most of that as an excuse if they felt strongly enough about it.

 

EDIT: Be curious to see some of Eddies figs with armor and weapon packs, a peg on their backs to allow for optional attire.


Edited by mannakat, 19 July 2017 - 09:50 AM.

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#22 Eddieinthecity

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 10:37 AM

For those curious, i made a timeline of how this went down and a shot of my original sculpt.

 

Like I said. All I can do now is keep developing my line and improving. I just want it to get into fans and collectors hands.

 

Attached Files


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#23 plasticfiend

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:21 PM

I don't see why people were downvoting Bones' post.
It's a fair question to ask, especially when it seems like the line arbitrarily shifts depending on who can profit and when. I've been around a long time, and I still don't see the difference between stealing a concept or an outright IP. It might not be the exact same, but we're kind of picking the pepper out of fly shit, in trying to establish degrees of stealing toy ideas. If you took it from somebody else without compensating them for it, it's shitty. Period.

 

Don't look at me!  I didn't down vote Bones... just responded to his comment.  I would never down vote Bones!  He's like my LRGJesus - he can do no wrong.

 

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#24 plasticfiend

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 07:10 PM

For those curious, i made a timeline of how this went down and a shot of my original sculpt.

 

Like I said. All I can do now is keep developing my line and improving. I just want it to get into fans and collectors hands.

 

Eddie - on your flow chart/ timeline... wasn't there a Toy Fair in there somewhere where Moose revealed their designs/ announced the new line?  I remember you posted something a few months ago along with a pic - it was some show or something.  

 

Am I not remembering something correctly?

 

Anyhow - I wish you the best of luck with the line.  And I hope the cream rises... and your line succeeds.  I know this biz can be cut throat, but I believe you and your talents!!

 

Good luck dude,

 

PF


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#25 Draznar

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 07:44 PM

If you are trying to use third party transformers as a justification for jacking somebody's creations/property, then I am afraid I can't really follow, because I don't see that shit as justified either. But hey, it's way easier to turn a buck off of somebody else's good idea than it is to risk your own ass on your own ideas/work.

I used it as an example of how what these people are doing isn't necessarily illegal or outright theft. Is it "unoriginal?" I'll give you that. But if there's a demand, someone will be there to fill it.

Eddie has proven he has the abilities as both an artist and a sculptor, and is dumping a shit ton of effort, time, and possibly money into his Snack Attack line. He has created original characters with back stories, names, and gimmicks. The only similarities between this and the Grossery Gang are the size and that they're made of food. (With the exception of their very well-timed new action figures, of course.) This is him "risking his own ass on his own ideas/work", and with Moose doing what they're doing, it's absolutely a risk.


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