44 replies to this topic

[MuscleMadMan]

I know this may come off as M.U.S.C.L.E. blasphemy but hear me out before passing full judgment. I am going to be generalizing in this post but that comes with the territory when speaking in terms of groups and solutions. I know what I'm saying is not the mindset of everyone.

Here we go... It seems the more veteran the collector, the more they start to get frustrated with the class system. The newer the collector, the more obsessed they are with the class system. Why is this?

When someone first gets started or picks back up their old collection they want to start figuring out what they have, what they don't have, what's out there, what can they get and the list goes on... That's what makes collecting exciting and fun. Having access to the class system is amazing for that. It gives you some basis on what you are collecting and what to expect in terms of supply and demand. Otherwise you would be lost. Then you start the journey. I know from my experience it was a wonderful resource. If class B were to be removed leaving only A and C, that would be extremely unsatisfying for a new collector. Most likely EVERY figure they have would be C. Talk about discouraging a person with a collector's mentality. It would look like this while they review what figures they have and where they are at: C, C,C, C, C, hmmmm yep C, C, C... I mean really put yourself in that position and think about that as a starter. They would not even have the knowledge to understand how crazy broad the range of various C figures would be at that point. That won't keep the collecting excitement and flame alive as they search for new figures. Think how big the range would be in the C's if there was only class C and class A.

On the flipside, a veteran collector has been around so long that the excitement of starting a base collection already happened, they are more passionate, into the details, the history etc... They likely have most of the "attainable" figures they have wanted. The class system other than A's in terms of collecting becomes almost irrelevant. They then continue to see people abusing the class system with false claims using the term "RARE" because it's a class B. And extreme prices because it's a class A. This makes the class system more annoying than part of the hobby. I would say over the last year or so I myself have started to fall into this category. But should this kill the class system and a major building block that drives M.U.S.C.L.E. collecting and fun? Or drop it by a third and make it so narrow and non-information rich that it bores the F(&$)# out of new collectors who would have a massive pile of C's and no knowledge? I don't think so.

When you look at something like baseball cards EVERY SINGLE card has a different value, and no I'm not suggesting anything like this for M.U.S.C.L.E. but it's all based on demand and rarity. I get the word "value" may be the wrong one to use in this comparison and forum but not all class A's look cool, not all super rares look great... people are usually at least somewhat affected by value, unless it's just compulsion to own everything and they HAVE to do it. The point I'm making is rarity, demand and value make collecting fun, whether it's baseball cards or M.U.S.C.L.E.'s. And even if you got your class A's for 50 cents snagging it in a great auction then got an adrenaline surge... yes I'm talking about you too! it's not just the value or money, it's the want to build your collection and a guide to help you do so and get pumped knowing what you are up against. The rarity and demand drove you and it's fun.

So wouldn't a better solution then diminishing or eliminating be to work together to establish a class system that is A, B, C and D? I'll let you take a breath here......... Okay I'm back. It only makes sense that the class system (which is awesome) was built on knowledge that was continually growing. As that has continued to grow why would the class system shrink? Just to avoid class A price gouging and class B "rare" claims or a few figures being accidently/unknowingly in the wrong category? I get the premise, but that just doesn't make sense to me personally. At this point there is almost across the board agreement on "most" class C's and class A's. Class B seems to me to be the new frontier. The ability to move a class B figure up or down without crushing how it's seen in the class system (making it a C) or shooting it up on a rocket (making it a class A) is a monster fluctuation with the current system and completely insane in a 2 class system. That's why I lean towards a 4 class system. It would level off the peaks and valleys. The veterans would be critical in making it as solid as they can (I'm sure it would be fluid for a while). It would add more excitement and understanding to collecting. It would also build knowledge.

I say all this and will be the first to point out, it's a lot of work, I don't have the knowledge to do it etc... However, I see all kinds of people randomly talking about M.U.S.C.L.E. movies and documentaries like they just had a calling from God but want someone else to figure out how to do it. I don't mean to come off like that. I just kept seeing everyone talking about eliminating or reducing instead of expanding and enhancing what I consider to be the best single resource in the hobby. Thoughts?

MMM

Edited by MuscleMadMan, 18 September 2015 - 05:16 PM.

[plasticfiend]

I don't know who you are - but I like your enthusiasm!!!

 

Maybe we should all take note of some of the NEWER collector's opinions.  I'm not saying I agree with every point that Musclemadman made... but it is an interesting perspective.  And honestly a fresh one.  We spend so much time fussing about worrying about non-vertern (or at least new-ish) collectors being taken advantage of by non-scrupulous EBayers jacking up the prices on things.  In reality, I think it's the veterans than fuss the most about the classes.

 

We should go out of our way to reach out to some of the some of the newer collectors if possible, and get their perspective.

 

PF

[plasticfiend]

BTW - there may be too many threads discussing this now lol...

 

BUT if there is anyone that doesn't know about General Veer's blog on this, be sure and go and vote on your opinion one way or the other on what should or shouldn't be done with the CLASS SYSTEM!  It's your chance to be heard.  And I believe Veers is really trying to get the pulse of the community on this.

 

http://blog.uofmuscl...september-13th/

 

PF

[T.O.Y.M.E.E.T.S.W.O.R.L.D.]

First off I want to start out by saying I am a fairly new collector myself. I was literally thinking some of these exact same things just recently, I think I seen a post some where about the elimination of Class B's and I don't agree with that, but I kept my mouth shut. Considering this post I'll throw my 2 pennies in on it...

 

Basically I totally agree with the keeping of the Class B's, and I agree as to why as well... Some of the thoughts I had recently were what you said exactly and maybe it's because I'm a new collector but part of the thrill for me is getting a hold of those Class B's. I buy big lots and when I get the figures in the mail the first thing I do is get on Musclefigures.com and search every last figure I just received to see if I got any Class B's or maybe even an A! I mean maybe it's because I'm so new to collecting still but I just dork the hell out about it. Also like you mentioned and I had the same thought, if there's only A's and CCCC's then there's no hunt to it, because at least for me thus far getting A's is slim picking and when an A pops up in a lot, specially if it's a good A then the seller is usually notified by a collector and the A is taken out of the equation all together when it comes to the lot. So with out the B's there would be no thrill of the unknown as to what you got because you can just bet on the fact that you only got a bunch of C's. As mentioned, I'm new, so I don't know all these figures by numbers, names, class's and so forth, I still have to search my ass off to see what I get, but I love that!

 

Also, I've had to search my balls off to find some B's that I own and am still searching my balls off for some other B's that I need. Idk if people just literally hoard certain figures or what, but some of these B's are hard to find and if the class's were to get tampered with and those B's became A's, then they would probably be even that much harder to find and that much more money to be paid when I did find them.

 

Now, the addition of the Class D, personally I think I agree there as well. It depends though... If there are more flesh then there are color figures, then yeah I think there should be a Class D. Example, lets say every flesh figure there were 200,000 figures made of each individual flesh figure from the poster set, and when it comes to color, the most common lamest figure possible there is only 100,000 of that figure, then yeah, I think flesh should be dropped down to Class D and the common colors should be C's, bla bla bla so on and so forth. But I mean I'm not guru at M.U.S.C.L.E. collecting, so there might be double the amount of color figures then flesh, I mean maybe there's a million #123's in DB and only 250,000 of #123 in flesh, Idk....

 

I just don't like it because to me as a new collector it seems like it would take the hunt and the thrill behind it straight out of getting lots and trades and what not AND for some of the B's it would just make them even harder to get and too costly as if it's not already costly enough.

 

Also, a little but barely off topic, can someone explain to me why Satan Cross the center piece to the 236 flesh set is considered a Class B? Like I said I'm new, I'm no guru but wasn't he a Super Rare at one point? Like the first original OG Super Rare? I know he was discovered and then he started popping up every where, but why the B class? I've seen more of the purple claw in the past month then I have SC sense I've been collecting which is about at four months now. And I've been told SC comes in spurts a few times a year, and that could certainly be true, guess I haven't witnessed it yet and some Class A's don't stand a chance next to SC, I've gotten some Class A's for .50 but if I need a SC I need to spend a toe on him. Any who... that was my two pennies, my apologies on the book I just wrote hope it makes some kind of sense and I don't know how to spell worth a shit so bare with me!

[plasticfiend]

First off I want to start out by saying I am a fairly new collector myself. I was literally thinking some of these exact same things just recently, I think I seen a post some where about the elimination of Class B's and I don't agree with that, but I kept my mouth shut. Considering this post I'll throw my 2 pennies in on it...

 

Basically I totally agree with the keeping of the Class B's, and I agree as to why as well... Some of the thoughts I had recently were what you said exactly and maybe it's because I'm a new collector but part of the thrill for me is getting a hold of those Class B's. I buy big lots and when I get the figures in the mail the first thing I do is get on Musclefigures.com and search every last figure I just received to see if I got any Class B's or maybe even an A! I mean maybe it's because I'm so new to collecting still but I just dork the hell out about it. Also like you mentioned and I had the same thought, if there's only A's and CCCC's then there's no hunt to it, because at least for me thus far getting A's is slim picking and when an A pops up in a lot, specially if it's a good A then the seller is usually notified by a collector and the A is taken out of the equation all together when it comes to the lot. So with out the B's there would be no thrill of the unknown as to what you got because you can just bet on the fact that you only got a bunch of C's. As mentioned, I'm new, so I don't know all these figures by numbers, names, class's and so forth, I still have to search my ass off to see what I get, but I love that!

 

Also, I've had to search my balls off to find some B's that I own and am still searching my balls off for some other B's that I need. Idk if people just literally hoard certain figures or what, but some of these B's are hard to find and if the class's were to get tampered with and those B's became A's, then they would probably be even that much harder to find and that much more money to be paid when I did find them.

 

Now, the addition of the Class D, personally I think I agree there as well. It depends though... If there are more flesh then there are color figures, then yeah I think there should be a Class D. Example, lets say every flesh figure there were 200,000 figures made of each individual flesh figure from the poster set, and when it comes to color, the most common lamest figure possible there is only 100,000 of that figure, then yeah, I think flesh should be dropped down to Class D and the common colors should be C's, bla bla bla so on and so forth. But I mean I'm not guru at M.U.S.C.L.E. collecting, so there might be double the amount of color figures then flesh, I mean maybe there's a million #123's in DB and only 250,000 of #123 in flesh, Idk....

 

I just don't like it because to me as a new collector it seems like it would take the hunt and the thrill behind it straight out of getting lots and trades and what not AND for some of the B's it would just make them even harder to get and too costly as if it's not already costly enough.

 

Also, a little but barely off topic, can someone explain to me why Satan Cross the center piece to the 236 flesh set is considered a Class B? Like I said I'm new, I'm no guru but wasn't he a Super Rare at one point? Like the first original OG Super Rare? I know he was discovered and then he started popping up every where, but why the B class? I've seen more of the purple claw in the past month then I have SC sense I've been collecting which is about at four months now. And I've been told SC comes in spurts a few times a year, and that could certainly be true, guess I haven't witnessed it yet and some Class A's don't stand a chance next to SC, I've gotten some Class A's for .50 but if I need a SC I need to spend a toe on him. Any who... that was my two pennies, my apologies on the book I just wrote hope it makes some kind of sense and I don't know how to spell worth a shit so bare with me!

 

 

I'm only speaking to your last paragraph.  I don't believe the SC was EVER considered a Super Rare.  And I didn't actually think it was considered a B... BUT if it is considered a B (it's easily something I could have missed, because I don't go too nuts on the class stuff) it would be because it is relatively uncommon.  But NOT because it's a particularly rare figure.  I think it is simply a popular sculpt, and hoarded as such.  Really not more rare than any of the other FLESH stuff.  Just popular.  Kind of like the #153 CLAW (but on crack).  

 

PF

[T.O.Y.M.E.E.T.S.W.O.R.L.D.]

Yeah, I didn't know if it was ever a SR or not, I've had this conversation with some friends and no one ever told me it wasn't a SR when I mentioned that same phrase, so I never really knew, now I do! Also, I'd have to disagree on the it being just as rare as other flesh, I'm sure it is hoarded, but I cant imagine there's just as many SC out there as there is the other flesh. I could most def. be wrong though so don't hold me to that, I just have to disagree is all.

[TheRiddler]

People collect thousands of lines of all types of action figures where no class exists and still totally geek out...i feel that the class system has been ruined by greedy sellers and class b's are pointless since unlike class A's which are only found in a small region are found everywhere like class C's...

[T.O.Y.M.E.E.T.S.W.O.R.L.D.]

I think me getting into collecting and there being a "Class" system already in place, made me enjoy that aspect of it. So it's not so much I hate the idea of there being only two classes, it's more along the lines of that's how I know it to be and I enjoy the way it's currently set up, to an extent. For me at least, getting a Class A is like getting Joe Montana's rookie card, well, some Class A's, others would be like getting a Joe Montana RC card tore in half, and Class B's is like getting Joe Montanta's second year card or even third year card, then the C's are like current reprints they make, lmao, hope that analogy makes sense.

[Screamer]

People collect thousands of lines of all types of action figures where no class exists and still totally geek out...i feel that the class system has been ruined by greedy sellers and class b's are pointless since unlike class A's which are only found in a small region are found everywhere like class C's...

I was just typing something very similar to this effect. As pointed out previously this topic has been discussed several times and will definitely again, which I think is a good thing. Like with most things that are collected (really any commodity) there ups and downs and all arounds over a period of time. I wouldn't consider myself new at the hobby but I am certainly no seasoned veteran. If you consider those that have spent a copious amount of time researching the history, tracking people down, recording sightings, pricing, etc. etc. they have been doing this for many years. And within that time span they have lived these ups and downs. Most of them were doing this before the hobby/market resembled anything that it is now. Even in the relatively short 4 years I have been collecting the hobby is vastly different. 

 

In part, I feel like the class system was established to simply guide collectors and aid them in understanding the ability or lack thereof finding a particular figure. I don't think it was ever meant to be any form of price guide or imply value on anything. This was before crazy price gauging and shifty buying/selling/trading tactics (for the most part). It has slowly taken this falsehood, sort of. In itself it has altered how the hobby/collecting is viewed. It reminds me of an episode of southpark where all the kids want to destroy walmart. To kill it they have to destroy the heart of it. They then find out they are the heart of it by looking in a mirror in a sealed off room. Simply put the class system, in general, is serving a different function than it was intended. I feel it will continue to do so long as there is a relatively large collecting base. The more classes there are the more of a "price guide" it becomes. I feel that older collectors do not necessarily care for a price guide whereas newer collectors may prefer a price guide. I don't mean to talk in general terms, it is simply a trend I have noticed. Good, bad, indifferent? I don't know. It is just an ever evolving hobby where many factors influence it.

[TheRiddler]

What really gets me is when someone lists a class B for like 15 bucks and has like 20 of them listed one by one on ebay. You end up scrolling through 2 pages of class B figures that are 15x overpriced!

[MuscleMadMan]

In part, I feel like the class system was established to simply guide collectors and aid them in understanding the ability or lack thereof finding a particular figure. I don't think it was ever meant to be any form of price guide or imply value on anything. This was before crazy price gauging and shifty buying/selling/trading tactics (for the most part). It has slowly taken this falsehood, sort of. In itself it has altered how the hobby/collecting is viewed. It reminds me of an episode of southpark where all the kids want to destroy walmart. To kill it they have to destroy the heart of it. They then find out they are the heart of it by looking in a mirror in a sealed off room. Simply put the class system, in general, is serving a different function than it was intended. I feel it will continue to do so long as there is a relatively large collecting base. The more classes there are the more of a "price guide" it becomes. I feel that older collectors do not necessarily care for a price guide whereas newer collectors may prefer a price guide. I don't mean to talk in general terms, it is simply a trend I have noticed. Good, bad, indifferent? I don't know. It is just an ever evolving hobby where many factors influence it.

I think you and I are basically saying the same thing in new vs vet collector and the interest in the class system. The problem is further development and evolution of the class system doesn't get heard by most because of the worry of "price guide" usage. Believe me I understand that but let's look at what we have now vs a 2 class system. You can EASILY get B's in lots, no problem and at a low price. Finding an exact one is just part of the hunt. Plus, although it's annoying to see it, I don't see many overpriced single B's actually selling, so it's smoke and mirrors for the most part, f$&/'em. If you think A's are crazy $ now, make everything else C and A's will be a recipe for more price gouging. Many of us can be content having a decent set of B's that we know aren't super easy to find and get excited when we do find some to add to our collection. Take that knowledge away and have no choice but for many collectors to shoot for A's if you really enjoy the hobby and want harder to find figs and hello soaring prices on A's.

To your quoted TheRiddler point (which is good to make), of course there are plenty of collectables without a guide of some sort. That doesn't mean it isn't an awesome resource to have one and a unique attribute for a toy line that means so much to us but is obscure to others. Reduction of the class system in my opinion will for most new to early collectors summon an era of burn outs in much higher numbers than the status quo. The C, C , C , C.... example. I won't make the current class system vs non existent system case because I think you already know my thoughts.

I'm not saying it is THE solution but I feel expanding the class system and knowledge would be much better solution than making it nearly useless. It would be interesting to hear Veers take (I have read his blog but I mean more specifically on these points and perspective). I know the whole "price guide" unintended usage chaps his ass and I don't blame him. I still think that would exist even if you limit the class system. Right now people claim their C's are RARE from the 80's... like 5,000 years ago.

I wonder if when he was working on it originally, if he was thinking that it would grow over time or not. I understand things change when you see it in practice but I still think A's will always be the real issue and hindering the fun middle ground understanding which is the sweet spot for most collectors seems backwards to me. Thanks for the input so far guys.

MMM

Edited by MuscleMadMan, 19 September 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[plasticfiend]

What really gets me is when someone lists a class B for like 15 bucks and has like 20 of them listed one by one on ebay. You end up scrolling through 2 pages of class B figures that are 15x overpriced!

 

Lol... there are always going to be assholes.  Whether they revamp the class system or not.  I don't think they apply the most logic to their pricing... class B or not.

 

PF

[SubwayRats]

I agree with riddler's sentiments. I just feel this whole class theory is just ridiculous with the back & forth .... Let's not forget their muscle, they were cheap, and will fill a child's toy chest or landfill somewhere down the line.

[plasticfiend]

Lol... there are always going to be donkeypits.  Whether they revamp the class system or not.  I don't think they apply the most logic to their pricing... class B or not.

 

PF

 

WHOA... lol... I never knew that "A holes" gets censure and turned into "donkeypits" !!!

 

Lol that's hilARIOUS... AND brilliant too.  Donkeypits!!!  Pft!  I love it!

 

 

I agree with riddler's sentiments. I just feel this whole class theory is just ridiculous with the back & forth .... Let's not forget their muscle, they were cheap, and will fill a child's toy chest or landfill somewhere down the line.

 

 

 

I don't know dude - it seems to me that there is WAY more drama now that people are discussing "upgrading" and "downgrading" stuff lol... you should read some of the other threads.  I had no idea that this was such an explosive topic.  People are very passionate about it.

 

PF

[SubwayRats]

This is what I'm referring too plastic fiend, I read some of the other stuff and I may be crapped on for this but it's just stupid all the heated arguments really shits on my joy of collecting muscle and their forefathers. But hey, to each their own.

[MuscleMadMan]

I don't know dude - it seems to me that there is WAY more drama now that people are discussing "upgrading" and "downgrading" stuff lol... you should read some of the other threads. I had no idea that this was such an explosive topic. People are very passionate about it.

PF

I agree, too much drama and at least so far it's on other threads not here! So far so good keeping the convo open on this thread.

My post reflects my thoughts which I am passionate about but it doesn't mean someone isn't in their right to disagree or completely disagree. I do hope others read it and find value in what I said, my perspective and the reality I foresee regarding reducing rather than expanding the class system, but if someone thinks otherwise I'd rather have them state their opinion than not. I can understand and appreciate multiple points of view and still have a preferred one.

MMM

Edited by MuscleMadMan, 19 September 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Sixthwizard]

When you pit one against another- creating classes- it's inevitable drama. Just like society.

When I started collecting, class was the thing to look at. But now that years and years have went by, class means nothing to me. It's of zero consequence to me on the collecting aspect. Not that I'm actively collecting anymore really, but even if I were, class wouldn't be important. It's just the colors I'm missing, or the figures I'm missing....nothing to do with missing class a or b or c.....because I don't use this system as a muscle law. It guided me in the master set chase, but that's it. For example, I don't perceive a purple claw a "class A" figure. I perceive a purple claw as a purple claw.

The knowledgeable aspect of muscle- is where the trees and class come in. My perception on the trees and class system is that it is a tool for understanding how muscles were produced, and spread through the world- and their rarity of production. Nothing to do with value or anything like that- which is how most people view the system.

Also, by tracking prices or rather talking about tracking prices- we do realize we are making pricing laws in stone....sort of.... The average price tracked, will now be thee price it is- just leave all this alone. Someone wants to know how much something is worth when it has no current retail value, people reply "well, it's sold for anywhere from $10-25" gives the questioner a set in stone price- $10-25- so...the figure gets listed or sold for no less than $10.... Know what I'm saying? Inadvertently creating set prices.....

The only answer to a value or worth question, should be- "there's no retail value. It's what collectors are willing to spend. auction it off and the end price is how much it's worth."

Please- my 2cents only....I'm NOT knocking anything, or trying to down anyone's work here! Just giving my perspective!

[PlasticSoul]

 

I don't know dude - it seems to me that there is WAY more drama now that people are discussing "upgrading" and "downgrading" stuff lol... you should read some of the other threads.  I had no idea that this was such an explosive topic.  People are very passionate about it.

 

PF

 

 

It's really simple. You get different perspectives from different types of collectors.

 

You have the people with massive collections who are afraid of any of their own figures losing their imaginary value.

 

You have new and old collectors who are in it for reselling purposes that share the same idea of "value" as the guys mentioned above simply because they are trying to buy low and sell high. So since they spend so much time looking for good deals then flipping figures the more stuff is worth the better it is for them.

 

Then you have fans of the figures who care very little about the value and use the class guide as something to determine rarity as opposed to value as it was intended. 

 

It's very important to take individual peoples motivations into perspective while reading their opinions about this stuff. 

[plasticfiend]

It's really simple. You get different perspectives from different types of collectors.

 

You have the people with massive collections who are afraid of any of their own figures losing their imaginary value.

 

You have new and old collectors who are in it for reselling purposes that share the same idea of "value" as the guys mentioned above simply because they are trying to buy low and sell high. So since they spend so much time looking for good deals then flipping figures the more stuff is worth the better it is for them.

 

Then you have fans of the figures who care very little about the value and use the class guide as something to determine rarity as opposed to value as it was intended. 

 

It's very important to take individual peoples motivations into perspective while reading their opinions about this stuff. 

 

 

Absolutely.  I understand why it happens.  Not trying to be dismissive of the various opinions out there.  Just fascinating to read everyone's perspective and how passionate they are.  

 

PF

[PlasticSoul]

Absolutely.  I understand why it happens.  Not trying to be dismissive of the various opinions out there.  Just fascinating to read everyone's perspective and how passionate they are.  

 

PF

 

It is very interesting but once you separate the people who are passionate about M.U.S.C.L.E.S from the people who are passionate about M.O.N.E.Y then you can paint a pretty clear picture of what makes sense. 

[MuscleMadMan]

Then you have fans of the figures who care very little about the value and use the class guide as something to determine rarity as opposed to value as it was intended.

It is very interesting but once you separate the people who are passionate about M.U.S.C.L.E.S from the people who are passionate about M.O.N.E.Y then you can paint a pretty clear picture of what makes sense.

I guess it's just tough to see both points above which I do agree with: 1. pro class system and intentions 2. negative class system money push. ... And then have the negative point keep squashing the positive.

With a lot of vets point two kills point one. But I have to imagine the birth of the class system was a great time. Clowns on eBay really tick people off that bad they want to kill it? Believe me, the clowns will still be around. I hardly see overpriced figs actually sell so why does point 2 kill point one? I've never sold a single M.U.S.C.L.E figure ever and I think the class system should be expanded... I must be the oddball. And didn't we just have people thinking flesh popularity and cost might be eclipsing most color figs? B's are not the problem. And why snuff further knowledge because of idiots on eBay etc... There will always be idiots from this point on regardless, imo.

I think a lot of people forget what it's like to still be on the hunt and I don't mean for just a few figures, I mean having tons of gaps. M.U.S.C.L.E. was my fav toys growing up and when I saw how much work, time, effort and knowledge had been built when I stumbled back into it a few years back I was shocked. I had to get involved. I would hate to see a cornerstone of that go away or be milked to uselessness (only C class and A class). I continue to be surprised almost no one else thinks it should be expanded one more class. With two classes basically set on default (A and C) why wouldn't B be broken up better. I get they aren't region locked but anyone who has done this long enough knows there are B's that come up significantly less than others. Like point one above, the class system is properly used to gauge rarity. I think sometimes people get too much of a hardon for the word rare. It really should be gauging rarity vs other figs in the toy line, not that it literally has to fit an interpretation of the word rare. B's could use that gauge.

Maybe once I have all the figs I want my mind will change about the class system but personally I don't think I would have kept wanting to learn more without the roadmap the class system started me on. It would be the first thing I'd share with a friend, then I'd send them to University of M.U.S.C.L.E. to read up, this forum etc... I really respect all the work a lot of you guys did & do so someone like me could jump in, read up and get rolling like I did and continue to do so. I loved the enthusiasm and effort but it just seems the cash clowns have started to suck the air out of the ascending balloon and it has grown more pessimistic around here. I don't want to let that win but it has to be the vets move regarding the class system because they've earned it, get it and are the only ones who could do it right anyway.

MMM

Edited by MuscleMadMan, 19 September 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[plasticfiend]

I've been going back and re-reading some of Sixthwiz's comments. And even though I was certainly on the side of saving the Bs... Or at least downgrading some, upgrading other etc. If it's a question of killing the Bs all together, then maybe we should really toss out the whole class system.

So now I'm a little torn.

Because while I don't necessarily mind the way things are set up now, although like I said I do think some reorganization, and upgrading and downgrading should occur... I'm not convinced that killing the just the Bs will fix the problems that have occurred. So perhaps a classless system might be better.

Unlike Sixth, I wasn't around back before the classes. I stopped collection when I was little and suddenly got back into it a year or so ago. So I have no idea what it was like back then... Perhaps things would be more harmonious. I guess I still don't get damning one class vs another... Perhaps it's the class system overall that is the problem.


PF

[jkaris]

All the things that people don't like about the class system were going on well before the class system. Ever since people started trying to get all figures in all colors, and you had a small group of people competing for a small amount of hard to get figures.
And when a couple people bid up a hard to get figure, then others see that and the profiteering starts.

This is the same in every single collector circle. Every one. Actually, this is the same with anything when you have some scarcity, real or perceived.

It's human nature.

Human nature. And it's not going to change. You can change yourself, but you can't change others. Arguing about it might make you feel better because you vented, but it isn't going to change the people who are doing things that you don't like.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer, but the reality is, human nature is human nature. Always has been, always will be.

A friend of mine has this quote as his email signature, and it is so true:
"True nobility lies not in being superior to another man, but in being superior to one's previous self." Strive to be better.....

[PlasticSoul]

I guess it's just tough to see both points above which I do agree with: 1. pro class system and intentions 2. negative class system money push. ... And then have the negative point keep squashing the positive.

With a lot of vets point two kills point one. But I have to imagine the birth of the class system was a great time. Clowns on eBay really tick people off that bad they want to kill it? Believe me, the clowns will still be around. I hardly see overpriced figs actually sell so why does point 2 kill point one? I've never sold a single M.U.S.C.L.E figure ever and I think the class system should be expanded... I must be the oddball. And didn't we just have people thinking flesh popularity and cost might be eclipsing most color figs? B's are not the problem. And why snuff further knowledge because of idiots on eBay etc... There will always be idiots from this point on regardless, imo.

I think a lot of people forget what it's like to still be on the hunt and I don't mean for just a few figures, I mean having tons of gaps. M.U.S.C.L.E. was my fav toys growing up and when I saw how much work, time, effort and knowledge had been built when I stumbled back into it a few years back I was shocked. I had to get involved. I would hate to see a cornerstone of that go away or be milked to uselessness (only C class and A class). I continue to be surprised almost no one else thinks it should be expanded one more class. With two classes basically set on default (A and C) why wouldn't B be broken up better. I get they aren't region locked but anyone who has done this long enough knows there are B's that come up significantly less than others. Like point one above, the class system is properly used to gauge rarity. I think sometimes people get too much of a hardon for the word rare. It really should be gauging rarity vs other figs in the toy line, not that it literally has to fit an interpretation of the word rare. B's could use that gauge.

Maybe once I have all the figs I want my mind will change about the class system but personally I don't think I would have kept wanting to learn more without the roadmap the class system started me on. It would be the first thing I'd share with a friend, then I'd send them to University of M.U.S.C.L.E. to read up, this forum etc... I really respect all the work a lot of you guys did & do so someone like me could jump in, read up and get rolling like I did and continue to do so. I loved the enthusiasm and effort but it just seems the cash clowns have started to suck the air out of the ascending balloon and it has grown more pessimistic around here. I don't want to let that win but it has to be the vets move regarding the class system because they've earned it, get it and are the only ones who could do it right anyway.

MMM

 

It just won't ever be the same. In the beginning these people who were classifying figures and figuring out the trees and where stuff was sold originally were doing it because they were curious and interested and wanted to verify things that mattered to them and their friends. It sounds stupid to say it was some golden age back then because it wasn't but in a few ways it actually was. That won't happen again. Go look at the scammers thread. Look at the purple claw someone found just recently and came here for information and help only to have another member win the auction then decide not to pay. Can you really trust people's motive these days? Look how many "friends" work together to screw people over then have a falling out and call one another out publicly these days. It's a huge mess. Even if there are better ways to categorize muscles figures now then there were before it doesn't really matter because the trust is all but gone from the hobby. Maybe i'm biased or bitter having been a staff member here for awhile and dealing personally with the darkest side of collecting these little rubber toys but that's how i see it.

 

[plasticfiend]

NOOOOOO... I won't click your LINK!!! That scene is HORRIBLE and will bring tears to my eyes EVEN as an adult!! UGH lol...

PF