105 replies to this topic

[Leitmotiv]

After having viewed the Kinnikuman thread/pictures versus the rare Muscles, I am a little confused.

These purported rare Muscles like Drunken Master and others are exact replicas of the new Kinnikuman. The obvious conclusion and simplest, is that these rare Muscles are fakes. They surfaced recently, instead of in the past. They are exact copies of the Kinnikuman. And the small quantity of them raises suspicion.

I WANT the rare Muscles to be legit, but some of the designs look too new, too modern... I think they're bootlegs... very high quality bootlegs. Some imo look like they're recastings of the Kinnikuman.

If I were you guys, I wouldn't spend anything on these "rare" muscles. At least nothing more than a Japan import toy or the cost of a good bootleg knockoff.

[BigSerow]

I know what you mean, I am confused too, don't really get it. Who has verified from alex that there real????

[Strontium Dog]

I have no idea what is going on in this thread.

[Biffard]

Kinnikuman came before MUSCLE. There are over 400 different kinnikuman sculpts and they are all made of an eraser like material. They are very flexible and soft compared to MUSCLE. There are only 236 MUSCLE figures and as previously mentioned they are made of a different type of material that is more stiff than the kinnikuman counterparts.

MUSCLE super rares are from the kinnikuman line but are made in the MUSCLE material. Thus making them legit MUSCLE figures, however, it is uncertain if they were just test subjects or were intended for a possible second release of MUSCLE that would include the rest of the kinnikuman figures that were not released in the first MUSCLE wave. There are other theories about SR's but I won't go into those.

So long story short, MUSCLE SR's are most definitely NOT bootlegs as the MUSCLE material is the exact same and they have been found in MUSCLE packaging before. (magnificent 11 thread) While I understand your point, I think there is more evidence pointing the other way than just thinking they are bootlegs.

Edited by Biffard, 21 July 2011 - 10:51 AM.

[jkaris]

1. All M.U.S.C.L.E.s are exact replicas of their Kinnikuman counterpart. They were made in the sme factory, at the same time, using the same molds and a different material.

2. Every "Rare" or "Super Rare" figure listed HERE is indeed legitimate. I can vouch 100% for 13 of the sculpts, myself. I have held BHS, SHA and THESE in my grubby little hands, myself.

3. Yes, you are correct to take anything Alex says with a very large grain of salt based on his behaviour over the years, but the SR figures are indeed legitimate.

[Clawfreak]

I own an SR and trust me its real. There are only rumors and speculation on why they are around. Muscle only made 236 sculpts out of the 418 Kinnikuman sculpts. Yes the Kinnikuman Kinkeshi ones are the same size and look alike as that's why some settle for them do to the prices of SR's. This allowes them to have one at a fraction of the cost. For most its knowing there could be more out there undiscovered but all we have is what has been found so far and hope more appear. But trust me when I say they are 100% legit ad you can ask around, a lot of members here have them.

[Leitmotiv]

Okay, I see why everyone wants them to be real. But just because they are made out of the same material, maybe even the same production facility, doesn't make them Muscles. Were they ever distributed at stores AS Muscles? Doesn't look like it. So in that professional regard, they aren't Muscles, but a rare peculiarity.

The magnificent 11 thread shows typically one person owning each... that in my view is not proof that the figures were ever released in Muscle packaging.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 21 July 2011 - 11:30 AM.

[Biffard]

Okay, I see why everyone wants them to be real. But just because they are made out of the same material, maybe even the same production facility, doesn't make them Muscles. Were they ever distributed at stores AS Muscles? Doesn't look like it. So in that professional regard, they aren't Muscles, but a rare peculiarity.

Again, I understand what you are saying but it is all opinion and no fact. All those things you listed don't mean that they are/aren't real MUSCLE figures. My opinion is that they are real, maybe they are a mistake or test run for the MUSCLE toy line but that doesn't discredit them as MUSCLE figures.

Anyway, from here on out it is all speculation and everyone has their own opinion. However, I would guess that your beliefs are in the minority within the MUSCLE community. (I don't mean that in a rude way but it's probably true.)

[Leitmotiv]

Again, I understand what you are saying but it is all opinion and no fact. All those things you listed don't mean that they are/aren't real MUSCLE figures. My opinion is that they are real, maybe they are a mistake or test run for the MUSCLE toy line but that doesn't discredit them as MUSCLE figures.

Anyway, from here on out it is all speculation and everyone has their own opinion. However, I would guess that your beliefs are in the minority within the MUSCLE community. (I don't mean that in a rude way but it's probably true.)

Biffard, you are right... I think I even wrote at one point or another: "imo" and "in my view," to my credit.

I'd personally say, that anything that didn't hit mass production is not apart of the official line. One or two one-offs are not mass production. In terms of rarity (which the magnificent 11 is of no help), the rare muscles are virtually impossible to obtain. That is not rare - that is like Super, Mythical, Legendary, Esoterically Rare. In CCGs you have rares and super rares, but even the super rares you find once every 10 packs or so. But these "rare Muscles" outstrip those and put them to shame. They're so rare that the term rare is meaningless in describing them.

For all intents and purposes of the original line produced back in the 1980s, these "new" super rare muscles are not official, and should not be considered apart of the line, but a strange peculiarity. A peculiarity that only the most OCD and rich completist should consider pursuing. Otherwise don't bother.

The fact that these new "super rares" showed up in recent years is a big red flag for everyone here. Just trying to help.

[Ridureyu]

Keep in mind that at least one Kinnikuman non-poster sculpt, Satan Cross, has been confirmed to be in 4-pack packaging, and it took years before one of those was found intact.

[jkaris]

I see what you are saying, that they may be un-authorized versions made in the same warehouse. Good point.

However, Joe Morrison, head of MEG and former head of the MUSCLE line at Mattel has stated that there were specific figures that were "retailer" incentives, outside of the normal 233.
http://blog.uofmuscle.com/?p=14409
Granted, this could be only the Satan Cross figure (who has been found in sealed MUSCLE packaging) but based on the quantity of the BHS and SHA figures, I would think that they fit that bill as well.

Another thing is that BHS and SHA have been found bearing the peculiar "blue" specs that come from figures resting against the blue backing of the 4 packs. There is a thread around here somewhere. Maybe Veers, URS or Soupie will know. <--- My memory could be faulty here.

The Mag 11 I found was indeed in a MUSCLE 28 pack, but my guess is that they were put there after the fact. I still think those were a type of salesman sample.

In regards to them being bootlegs and not factory errors, how would they have made their way over to the States and into the average kid's collection? There was no eBay back then, and also, if bootlegs, why are there such a limited amount of them as opposed to the other traditional M.U.S.C.L.E. bootlegs?

Anyways, great point.

[Biffard]

A peculiarity that only the most OCD and rich completist should consider pursuing. Otherwise don't bother.

LOL! Exactly!

Ya it is definitely an interesting topic and only those rich, or crazy, enough can get them. I personally like the SR theory of them existing because it gives a little more mystery to their origins and why they were manufactured. However, I won't ever own one, unless it is dirt cheap, because I am more than happy with kinnikuman versions of those sculpts. So yea, hopefully one day more info will be uncovered about them and their origins. I know General Veers worked relentlessly at trying to get some answers. I believe he contacted Mattel and even people that worked on the MUSCLE toy line but to no prevail.

If you learn how to match the MUSCLE color and texture in your molding endeavor that could bring the prices of SR's way down if exact replica's are being produced. I don't know how one could tell the difference between a really well made bootleg and a legit MUSCLE. Maybe the smell of MUSCLE would give it away but the look could be identical.

Edited by Biffard, 21 July 2011 - 12:14 PM.

[Biffard]

Keep in mind that at least one Kinnikuman non-poster sculpt, Satan Cross, has been confirmed to be in 4-pack packaging, and it took years before one of those was found intact.

And 10-pack too!

[jkaris]

A peculiarity that only the most OCD and rich completist should consider pursuing. Otherwise don't bother.

True to a point, but not necessarily. SRs have been found in the oddest of places and auctions and I would wager to say that most have been first purchased for almost nothing. The only time they go high is in a well publicized eBay auction or an after the fact personal sale. A little obsessiveness in scouring eBay auctions can definitely net you one or more for chump change, as well as lucking on to a random lot with one mixed in.

The fact that these new "super rares" showed up in recent years is a big red flag for everyone here.

They have been showing up since we have been around, mainly because people are actively scouring for them and because people are clearing out their old crap. They've been around since the 80's, but no one really knew that they were special. It's only becuase of the hobbyists that they have come to light and become what they are today. BHS was found a decade ago. SHA soon after. Then the hunt was ON! And more and more have turned up almost every year since.

A good example is the 50/50 10-packs. None of us knew they existed until a couple cases hit eBay years ago. We always thought there were only flesh or color 10-packs.

And 10-pack too!

And speaking of the SC 10-pack, I think a few of us are still pretty skeptical about that one.

[Ericnilla]

Not to be mean or diminish what you are saying, but i think you are a little too new to the hobby to make such grand statements on something you might not know the whole story of.

Good ideas and great interest, but i think you should read up a little more.

I myself consider them abnormalities in the line, but in now way would go so far to call them bootlegs or fake... and i think Super Rare fits something that there are only 1 or 2 of said items.

[Leitmotiv]

I see what you are saying, that they may be un-authorized versions made in the same warehouse. Good point.

However, Joe Morrison, head of MEG and former head of the MUSCLE line at Mattel has stated that there were specific figures that were "retailer" incentives, outside of the normal 233.
http://blog.uofmuscle.com/?p=14409
Granted, this could be only the Satan Cross figure (who has been found in sealed MUSCLE packaging) but based on the quantity of the BHS and SHA figures, I would think that they fit that bill as well.

Another thing is that BHS and SHA have been found bearing the peculiar "blue" specs that come from figures resting against the blue backing of the 4 packs. There is a thread around here somewhere. Maybe Veers, URS or Soupie will know. <--- My memory could be faulty here.

The Mag 11 I found was indeed in a MUSCLE 28 pack, but my guess is that they were put there after the fact. I still think those were a type of salesman sample.

In regards to them being bootlegs and not factory errors, how would they have made their way over to the States and into the average kid's collection? There was no eBay back then, and also, if bootlegs, why are there such a limited amount of them as opposed to the other traditional M.U.S.C.L.E. bootlegs?

Anyways, great point.

jakaris, I read that article about retailer incentives. But that same article seems to doubt the validity of that report. And I don't see what would be to gain for a retailer, by getting one super duper trooper rare muscle. The retailers aren't collectors. They are in the business of making money, something they couldn't do with an incentive figure. In fact, they'd probably lose money just trying to meet the requirements of getting one of those guys.

The Satan Cross figure is in my eyes, the only possible rare Muscle... and even then I'm skeptical. A 4 pack featuring the Satan Cross could be faked... and another red flag... it turned up in recent years!! Satan Cross could have been the beginning of a test run on "super rare" muscles. So more were produced. But again, for all "intents and purposes," meaning the toy manufacturer's goal... it is not apart of the line either, as explicitly shown by the official Muscle poster.

I'm leaning towards what you said jkaris. Unauthorized. But far from official by the strictest definition of the word.

I don't know anything about the legitimacy of these ebay auctions that have the super rares. But if they are bootlegs... that would easily explain for their legendary rarity. But I think you hit closer to the mark jkaris... unauthorized. Therefore, not official.

What happens when more of these guys show up? It will cast more doubt onto their validity I would think. I mean, how many super rares can you have?

[Biffard]

The Satan Cross figure is in my eyes, the only possible rare Muscle... and even then I'm skeptical. A 4 pack featuring the Satan Cross could be faked... and another red flag... it turned up in recent years!! .............


What happens when more of these guys show up? It will cast more doubt onto their validity I would think. I mean, how many super rares can you have?

This is a little off topic but just a quick side note on Satan Cross 4-packs. Someone correct me if I am wrong but aren't there like 10-15 SC 4-packs? I do think that SC was mass produced as evident from him popping up in ebay lots about once a week. He has be down graded from SR to R and has been common for several years now. As a result his price has fluctuated greatly. However, on occasion is amazes me how much people will still pay for him. The hype of SC is what drives the price up for this particular figure, IMO.

Your last question is intriguing, I would say that the same thing that happened to Satan Cross could be a good possibility. It is interesting to see how perceived value can be affected by supply and demand. I think even BHS and SHA have been down graded from SR to rare/uncommon.

Edited by Biffard, 21 July 2011 - 12:36 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

This is a little off topic but just a quick side note on Satan Cross 4-packs. Someone correct me if I am wrong but aren't there like 10-15 SC 4-packs? I do think that SC was mass produced as evident from him popping up in ebay lots about once a week. He has be down graded from SR to R and has been common for several years now.

Your last question is intriguing, I would say that the same thing that happened to Satan Cross could be a good possibility. It is interesting to see how perceived value can be effect by supply and demand. I think even BHS and SHA have been down graded from SR to rare/uncommon.

Yeah, you're right, but I was meaning new sculpts using the Kinnikuman line. Not, more quantities of existing rares.

[jkaris]

Yeah, there were a handful floating around, and then Alex found a full case with some SC packs in it. If you have ever opened a new case, you know, if there is one sculpt in it, there are 10-20 of that same figure in other packs in that case.

[Biffard]

Yeah, you're right, but I was meaning new sculpts using the Kinnikuman line. Not, more quantities of existing rares.

Oh I see. In that case I would suspect that as long as the new figures are of sculpts that haven't been seen in MUSCLE form before, then the prices will continue to sky rocket. I don't think it would destroy the "want/need" that people have for a SR but likely it would fuel it. Especially for new sculpts!

However, if more and more of that sculpt become available then the price will obviously drop. (i.e. Satan Cross or that X2 Goalie figure)

[jkaris]

or that X2 Goalie figure)

Just to clarify, the X-2 Golaie figure is a Ramen Man keshi, not a M.U.S.C.L.E. and was never made in M.U.S.C.L.E. plastic.

[Biffard]

Just to clarify, the X-2 Golaie figure is a Ramen Man keshi, not a M.U.S.C.L.E. and was never made in M.U.S.C.L.E. plastic.

Yeah, I should have said something about that. I used the X2 figure more as an example of how prices/demand have dropped. In fact I doubt anyone is even looking for an X2 figure anymore. But yes, definitely NOT a MUSCLE.

[stoneyface]

i see what you are saying in this thread but i would point out that prototypes, even if never released are always considered legitimate by collectors.
i would also point out that i have a satan cross 4 pack now. it is totally legit and sealed. i believe (like many others) that it was yanked from the muscle line because of the confusion of the hole in the back and the back legs have never been found lending credence to the fact that the legs may have provided a choking hazard and was yanked for that reason.

it is my opinion based on 5 years research now that the spinning head ashuraman(SHA) and black hole sunshine (BHS) were promotional/incentive muscles "prototypes" given to retailers as an incentive to order more muscles. i believe the rest of the super rares that have been found are prototypes of a never launched second wave of muscles. (a great example of this is the very famous magnificent 11) they were going to take the rest of the 400+ kinnikuman and release a second wave based on the the keshi that did not make it into the first 236 muscles. i think the argument here is simply based on how you would categorize prototypes. some people can and do call the super rares "non-legitimate" muscles because they were never released. i prefer to think of them as legit muscle prototypes that got slipped into circulation by accident/intent/other and are therefore legit. while i think your argument is thought provoking, i have to disagree that they are not "real muscles". but at least we had a good discussion about it!

peace,
stoneyface

speaking of which...

[Clawfreak]

I see what you are saying, that they may be un-authorized versions made in the same warehouse. Good point.

However, Joe Morrison, head of MEG and former head of the MUSCLE line at Mattel has stated that there were specific figures that were "retailer" incentives, outside of the normal 233.
http://blog.uofmuscle.com/?p=14409
Granted, this could be only the Satan Cross figure (who has been found in sealed MUSCLE packaging) but based on the quantity of the BHS and SHA figures, I would think that they fit that bill as well.

Another thing is that BHS and SHA have been found bearing the peculiar "blue" specs that come from figures resting against the blue backing of the 4 packs. There is a thread around here somewhere. Maybe Veers, URS or Soupie will know. <--- My memory could be faulty here.

The Mag 11 I found was indeed in a MUSCLE 28 pack, but my guess is that they were put there after the fact. I still think those were a type of salesman sample.

In regards to them being bootlegs and not factory errors, how would they have made their way over to the States and into the average kid's collection? There was no eBay back then, and also, if bootlegs, why are there such a limited amount of them as opposed to the other traditional M.U.S.C.L.E. bootlegs?

Anyways, great point.

I agree with Jonny as they could have been some type sales pitch for Mattel or maybe even a prototype as they were considering releasing another line after the colors as I read somewhere but it never made it to production

Edited by Clawfreak, 21 July 2011 - 03:40 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

Okay, well I see your points too.

I will add though that the research into retailer incentive has little to no proof backing it. I think the very article that states that, also mentions that this was not very common back then, and certainly nothing that Mattel had really done up to that point.

Very rare one-offs as an incentive makes very little sense to retailers. As far as we know they were not packaged and advertised as such, nor were they sold for higher price. So where is the incentive? There is none! These retailers aren't collectors and they are in it to make money. Getting one lousy rare figure that can't be sold at retail is more of a hassle than anything else. I reiterate that, they would lose money trying to achieve the incentive goal. Like say, they need to buy 40 24-packs... just to get one rare figure. The math doesn't work. Incentives are typically targeted at mom & pop shops, and small collector stores. Big box stores don't care about something they can't sell. But they do like exclusives!

There has to be another theory on these. I never heard the choking hazard... that's a strong possibility, but it has flaws too. Why cut half the figure (the choking part) and maintain the other half that far into production if you are that skeptical to begin with. And they must have been skeptical, because not many got into production. Seems a little odd. But, Japanese culture is a little bizarre...

Something doesn't add up. Some articles suggest that Mattel hated Muscle... and they were just a buffer toy to protect the main line toys. So why would they have incentives to buy more? Mattel apparently didn't like the line and abandoned it soon after. To me, it sounds like we have a conflict in logic. But more likely, we are claiming to know facts that just aren't so. Until we get that awesome interview with the Muscle creator himself, I don't know if we will ever know.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 21 July 2011 - 08:41 PM.