108 replies to this topic

[Soupie]

Let's treat this thread like the NFL and Baseball threads that have ongoing discussion of events and whatnot. Who knows, maybe we'll convert a few other board members into MMA fans.

Anyhow, UFC 77 just took place in Ohio last night. Rich Franklin had a re-match with Anderson Silva. In their first bout, Anderson Silva re-arranged Franklin's face with his knees...literally. Last night's fight was only different in that it went to the second round, and Rich's nose wasn't broken as severely this time. (Yep, he broke it again!)

I'll have to watch it again, but some things that stood out:

~ During the entire first round and a little of the 2nd (while it lasted) Rich appeared to be looking at the clock. He did NOT seem to be mentally in it at all.

~ At one point, Rich was throwing a flurry of punches and Anderson did a little "Matrix" move where he just stood there with his arms at his side and dodged back and forth, almost like a little dance. (I'm sure someone will make a gif soon and I'll post it.)

~ At the end of round one, with like 3 seconds left, Silva popped Rich right in the jaw and Rich dropped like a sack of potatoes. The bell rang and saved him, but it was all downhill from there.

~ At one point in the 1st round, Silva landed a spinning back kick, and I think it REALLY hurt Franklin. I wouldn't be surprised if it had cracked a rib.

Sylvia/Vera

First of all, Vera says he broke his hand in the first round. Hopefully we'll here more about that soon. But regardless of whether he broke his hand or not, he pretty much stood in front of Sylvia the entire fight, where he either got punched and elbowed, or back into the cage. Contrast that with how Couture, Liddell, Rampage, etc. move around the octagon creating angles and you can see that Vera is either an idiot or has a lot to learn.

When Vera used his kicks, they were effective, but Tim wisely closed the distance. Was this just a case of the veteran Sylvia sticking to a better gameplan, or was Vera really out of his league? Don't know for sure, but Vera certainly wasn't fighting smart.

Anyhow, I'd like to see Timmy fight this guy next:


Brock Lesnar

Edited by Soupie, 21 October 2007 - 06:44 AM.

[Aikola]

Is this were all the has-been wrestlers from WWE end up? ive seen this advertized on British TV but its on a bit too late for me, might catch it someday.

[Soupie]

Is this were all the has-been wrestlers from WWE end up? ive seen this advertized on British TV but its on a bit too late for me, might catch it someday.

D'oh!

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Lesnar -- especially in the first post! Lesnar actually has a very decorated college wrestling background; He's also trained in MMA for a year or longer. He's already got one MMA bout under his belt with a smaller org, K-1.

Having said all that, there are a lot of hardcore MMA fans who do NOT want Lesnar in the UFC because of responses like yours. So to answer your question, no, MMA -- or at least the top orgs in MMA is not were has-been pro-wrestlers end up.

Mixed martial arts is still a very young sport. It is still populated by fighters who grew up training mainly in one discipline such as boxing, kick-boxing, wrestling, Ju-Jitsu, Muay Thai, Judo, etc. They do learn the other disciplines -- they have to -- but they still have their one strong discipline to fall back on. For instance, Matt Hughes is a wrestler, Cro Cop is a kick-boxer, Nogueira is a Ju-Jitsu practitioner, etc. Then there are fighters like George Saint Pierre and Fedor Emelianenko who are incredibly well-rounded -- masterful at all the disciplines -- and represent the future of the sport. I heard a current young fighter say that he started training MMA when he was 16. He said you're not going to find anyone younger. Compare that with sports like football, basketball, and boxing where kids start training very young, 9-10. Once the younger generation starts training at younger ages, we'll see more Fedors and GSPs. (Should 9-10-year-old be fighting in full-fledged MMA fights? No, but they can train in all the disciplines and not just one or two.)


Fedor catching God in an arm-bar.

The first time I watched an MMA fight, about a year or so ago, it looked like two guys involved in a street fight. It's not like boxing where two guys literally stand in front of each other and take turns punching each other in the head. In MMA, you have to watch out for kicks to the legs, kicks to the chest or ribs, or a regular old wrestling (or Judo) take down. People complain about MM artists saying their boxing is sloppy... but that's because it's not boxing, it's MMA striking. They don't have the luxury of big puffy gloves and not having to worry about kicks, knees, and take downs. Because of this, even the way an MMA fighter stands is completely different then a boxer.

Finally, when the fight goes to the ground, to me it used to appear that they were just having a bar fight. But as you watch and learn, you see that it's all about positioning, moves, and counter moves.

To make a silly analogy, MMA is a lot like football in that there are so many ways to win and lose. Sure there are incredibly boring fights sometimes, just like boring football games from time to time. But once you really get into MMA, you quickly realize that it is the most exciting combat sport, and the talent and professionalism is only going to increase (hopefully).

(This wasn't all directed at you, Aikola, just thought it'd be good to post this at the start of the thread.)

[Kevin Mayle]

I watched the first half dozen UFC's way back when, and it always ended up with Royce Gracie laying on someone for a half hour. It was a big disappointment because I thought it was going to be like the the underground Collosseum matches in Best of the Best 2, which was pretty new at the time. It's so much different now. But as for people not training in MMA at ages younger than 16 or for any of this to be all that new, that's not exactly true. Bruce Lee was preaching cross training the best of every fighting style back in the '60s, and there have always been young people that have black belts in many styles at a young age. When I was taking Martial Arts in 1991 my instructor had various rankings of black belts in 8 different styles and he was only in his early 20's. So he had been training in many styles from a very young age in the 70's and 80's. He instructs the local police force and holds cage matches every weekend at our Civic Center. He teaches an amalgam of techniques from all his styles and incorporates more as he frequently attends seminars with instructors around the world. If I had stayed there, and many have, I'd have trained in MMA for 3 years longer than the UFC has been around. But you're right, it is a relatively young sport, and I think the only reason why the fighters are mainly trained in single styles is because there aren't an abundance of instructors that teach MMA, and a fighter would have to attend multiple schools, which would be too costly and time consuming.

[Soupie]

If you've never watched an MMA fight, here's a good one to start with to see how exciting they can be (it's not necessarily the best as far as execution of skill): PRIDEFC: Gomi Vs. Diaz

The fighter in the white trunks, Gomi, is primarily a striker, and the fighter in the black trunks is primarily a BJJ (Brazilian Ju-Jitsu) practitioner. This fight is all over the place, on the ground and a lot of striking. When you see it go to the ground, it looks chaotic, but the fighter in the black trunks knows exactly what he is doing and more importantly what he is trying to do to the other fighter. Watch the entire fight and you'll see. Also, the striking does get "sloppy" at times, but again, watch the very opening of the fight -- you'll see that both fighters always have to be on their guard for a take down, which effects how they stand and throw punches (but it also gets sloppy because they're exhausted).

If for some reason the above link doesn't work in the future, go to Dailymotion.com and search for Gomi + Diaz.

Edited by Soupie, 21 October 2007 - 08:55 AM.

[Soupie]

I watched the first half dozen UFC's way back when, and it always ended up with Royce Gracie laying on someone for a half hour. It was a big disappointment because I thought it was going to be like the the underground Collosseum matches in Best of the Best 2, which was pretty new at the time. It's so much different now. But as for people not training in MMA at ages younger than 16 or for any of this to be all that new, that's not exactly true. Bruce Lee was preaching cross training the best of every fighting style back in the '60s, and there have always been young people that have black belts in many styles at a young age. When I was taking Martial Arts in 1991 my instructor had various rankings of black belts in 8 different styles and he was only in his early 20's. So he had been training in many styles from a very young age in the 70's and 80's. He instructs the local police force and holds cage matches every weekend at our Civic Center. He teaches an amalgam of techniques from all his styles and incorporates more as he frequently attends seminars with instructors around the world. If I had stayed there, and many have, I'd have trained in MMA for 3 years longer than the UFC has been around. But you're right, it is a relatively young sport, and I think the only reason why the fighters are mainly trained in single styles is because there aren't an abundance of instructors that teach MMA, and a fighter would have to attend multiple schools, which would be too costly and time consuming.

KM, just saw your post. Yes, you're right. One big difficulty in training true MMA is finding a gym/trainer where all the martial arts are taught!

And, again, you're right that some martial artists hold belts in Muay Thai, Judo, JJ, but do they also have wrestling, grappling, boxing, etc. I'm sure there are some who actually do, but with the growth in popularity of MMA, there will be more-and-more elite athletes choosing to focus on MMA rather than say, go into boxing. (But all this remains to be seen -- for one, MMA is very unpredictable, and currently it seems that no one stays on top for very long, which might be a deterrent for some who could just as easily go into boxing which is "safer" in this regard, and secondly, the pay in MMA is nowhere near the pay in boxing. On the other hand, MMA is a great sport for top-level college wrestlers to get into, and they are, whereas in the past their only real options were the Olympics or pro wrestling.

And you're right about old Gracie fights being boring -- and that's because he was facing wrestlers or boxers who knew nothing about Ju-Jitsu and were like lambs going to the slaughter. Like you said, that's not the case these days.

[mrjayberry]

For those who do remember those old UFC fights that always seemed to be 2 second knockouts or 20 minutes of rolling its came a long way.

Now if nobody is "forcing the action" they get stood back up.

MMA is exiting because its a young sport and they still seem open to change.
For example UFC uses the 10 point must system for scoring bouts but there are some troubles with this and I think if they find a better way they will
change.

[Soupie]

~ At one point in the 1st round, Silva landed a spinning back kick, and I think it REALLY hurt Franklin. I wouldn't be surprised if it had cracked a rib.

That took the wind out of him physically and "mentally."

[Soupie]

~ At one point, Rich was throwing a flurry of punches and Anderson did a little "Matrix" move where he just stood there with his arms at his side and dodged back and forth, almost like a little dance. (I'm sure someone will make a gif soon and I'll post it.)

When Anderson did this, I immediately felt sorry for Franklin. I knew it was over.

[Czarcher]

Wow,that's pretty cool,nice dodging.You're right he is kinda 'matrixy'

[ironmask]

Sylvia just laid on Vera, and Vera really didn't have a whole lot of response.
Vera landed better strikes, but Sylvia used his size to hold Vera down, and "Steal" a victory.

As for the early UFC events....
Look at who the matchmaker was back then.
There were some great fighters doing business over in Japan at that time, that WERE NOT being brought over. Guys like Maurice Smith, Frank Shamrock, and Bas Rutten... All working for the Pancrase association.
They eventually drifted over here, but not until after the Gracies stopped the matchmaking.

To be honest, I prefer watching WEC and IFL now. They seem hungrier and more competitive than the UFc's reality show driven roster.
I caught a Bodog fight show late Friday night, that had a couple of interesting bouts on it.

Lastly, I think Lesnar is either going to be amazing, or terrible. Time will tell... But he won't be in the middle there, at all. He was a terrific amateur wrestler, and so far he's shown great position instincts... But he'll have to see how his striking game will formulize. Hopefully better than his NFL career. I'll be rooting for him.

[Soupie]

Just a heads-up if any of you guys are sitting around with nothing to do tonight! UFC 78 is on Pay Per View at 10:00pm EST.

Call some buds, get some beers, and watch some scrappin'.

Edited by Soupie, 17 November 2007 - 04:14 PM.

[ironmask]

Just a heads-up if any of you guys are sitting around with nothing to do tonight! UFC 78 is on Pay Per View at 10:00pm EST.

Call some buds, get some beers, and watch some scrappin'.

Bisping is a tool.
He might get lucky tonight, but I hope Evans crushes his skull.

[Czarcher]

I expect a full review Soupie.

[phillinley]

I expect a full review Soupie.

For those of you who don't have $50 to drop on this, or hate the bar scene, go to mmashare.com. They usually have the two headliners up right after the fights are done. Unfortunately, no undercards though.

Soupy - hopefully, sylvia gets a serious fight and not Lesner. I'd really like to see another rematch with orlovski. What I really hope will happen is he gets in on a title fight right away now that catoure is out of the picture. Sylvia hangs out at the bars with us locally almost every Saturday, and me and some of my buddies go fishing with him in the summer, so we're big, rabid fans of him.

[Soupie]

Well this UFC was dominated by a lot of wrestling and clinching, which isn't always the most exciting.

The biggest news of the night was Houston Alexander getting KO'd by Thiago Silva. Silva was very smart and took Alexander to the ground asap. With a full, wicked mount, he punched until the KO. Houston was still wobbly during the winner announcement.

Rashad won via decision against Bisping. It was a scrappy fight, with Rashad inexcusably gassed for most of the 2nd and 3rd rounds. He was trying to take Bisping down the entire fight and Bisping had good defense, but not good enough.

Not a very good review, I know. Sorry. It wasn't the most exciting card. Like I said, a lot of wrestling and clinching. I would say fight of the night was Karo's which he won via decision against a guy who has beaten Anderson Silva, Ryo Chonan.

Lesner is fighting Frank Mir next. Will be very, very interesting. Not sure who Sylvia has next. Maybe winner of Gonzaga/Werdum?

[phillinley]

Lesner is fighting Frank Mir next. Will be very, very interesting. Not sure who Sylvia has next. Maybe winner of Gonzaga/Werdum?

It should be a title fight next. Hughes only fought once after he lost the title too and he's got his title recovery fight next. Sylvia's injury set the comeback schedule back a bit, but especially now that their will be two contenders for the next title, Sylvia should get one of those shots.

[phillinley]

Rashad won via decision against Bisping. It was a scrappy fight, with Rashad inexcusably gassed for most of the 2nd and 3rd rounds. He was trying to take Bisping down the entire fight and Bisping had good defense, but not good enough.

Just got done watching this fight. I think this type of match is a prime example of why the ufc needs to change the way they do scoring, or better clarify how scoring goes about under there current system. The only way the second judge could have scored for Bisping is if he took into account Bisping's successful defense to takedown ratio against rashad. I think rashad was maybe 30% on his takedowns, and never held him down long enough to do any damage. I just get kind of sick seeing some of these great fights comedown to mixed decisions where the judge have entirely different ideas on how fights should be scored.

[Soupie]

You're right, phillinley. The 10-point must system is just not working for MMA. And like you say, points are not being consistently awarded to fighters for doing MMA things, like avoiding take-downs, escaping submissions, or getting right back up after bing taken down.

Personally, and people have mixed feelings about this, I'd like to see the rules geared in a way that steered fights away from extended period of clinching and pure wrestling. If a fighter is constantly going for submissions, that's one thing, but if the fight is looking like the Edgar/Fisher fight, with Edgar constantly taking Fisher down only to lay on him, something needs to be done.

Having said that, I guess that's the nature of the beast -- since Fisher couldn't stop the take down, we saw it over and over again. It was kind of like an old Ravens game, boring as hell, but effective.



I suppose you're right, that Timmy should get a title shot. We'll see.

[ironmask]

I think that when a belt is vacated, they should do a one night tournament, like in the old days. Not just in old UFC, but Pancrase, or the original Pride Grand Prix... That in itself would quell a lot of speculation.
I'm eagerly looking forward to Lesnar/Mir.
I don't like Mir, and I hope Lesnar can legitimize himself.

[Soupie]

Word/gossip is that Mir is waay out of shape. Could be ugly. However, I could also see him catching Lesnar in a wicked arm bar.

[Siccx Degree]

UFC 79 is gonna be dope, The Axe Murderer makes his debut, Wandy's gonna kill Chuck! And you know damn well that now that Wanderlei has landed in the UFC, Rampage's days as champ will be coming to an end, it will end like both of his fights against Silva, with a rain of Knees all in his face...

[phillinley]

UFC 79 is gonna be dope, The Axe Murderer makes his debut, Wandy's gonna kill Chuck! And you know damn well that now that Wanderlei has landed in the UFC, Rampage's days as champ will be coming to an end, it will end like both of his fights against Silva, with a rain of Knees all in his face...

I can only hope that will be true. But I thought the same thing when my favorite fighter Cro Cop came into the UFC last year. He's lost two fights that he would have won had they been in pride imo. The octagon makes it a whole different game.

[Soupie]

I can only hope that will be true. But I thought the same thing when my favorite fighter Cro Cop came into the UFC last year. He's lost two fights that he would have won had they been in pride imo. The octagon makes it a whole different game.

Don't forget about Shogun. He was expected to wipe the floor with Griffin... and instead found himself being choked out.

Liddell wants fighters to come right at him so he can touch them on the chin with his overhand right. I don't think we're going to see typical Wandy in this fight. Wand has been training with Couture. If Silva is smart, he will do the same exact thing Jardine did to Liddell. That is, avoid Liddell's right hand and work the leg kicks.

I think there is, unfortunately, a good chance the Liddell/Wandy fight could be a snoozer.

[phillinley]

I can only hope that will be true. But I thought the same thing when my favorite fighter Cro Cop came into the UFC last year. He's lost two fights that he would have won had they been in pride imo. The octagon makes it a whole different game.

Don't forget about Shogun. He was expected to wipe the floor with Griffin... and instead found himself being choked out.

Liddell wants fighters to come right at him so he can touch them on the chin with his overhand right. I don't think we're going to see typical Wandy in this fight. Wand has been training with Couture. If Silva is smart, he will do the same exact thing Jardine did to Liddell. That is, avoid Liddell's right hand and work the leg kicks.

I think there is, unfortunately, a good chance the Liddell/Wandy fight could be a snoozer.

Better to have big name snoozers than no name snoozers like last saturday night though. I found myself not really caring who won or lost the fights it was so mediocre (other than wanting evans to lose).