34 replies to this topic

[MIWP]

I don't think he would sell them cheaper. He only offered me 2-3 exoginis for a custom. That would mean he was selling loose exoginis for $7-$10 each or so. Which seems ultra high, in fact way higher than $40 for 3 boxed sets!

THEGODBEAST

Actually Exogonis are worth more than custom made figures because they are originals. If Albertinoz was to sell them at $ 1.50 a piece that would make 3 worth $4.50 so that equals about the value of one custom figure... So it seems. The price for Exogonis in package I would say would be just a little more than a mint 4 pack of M.U.S.C.L.E. figures maybe $8-10 a piece, so for $30 plus shipping it sounds like an ok deal. Sometimes its hard to figure out the value of toys and even harder when there is no set price guide. I have to say thought that any single figure that is an original is worth more than a custom/bootleg. Godbeast, I like your figures and understand that you put alot of money and hard work into creating them and I respect you for that, I just dont see the value in owning a fake... Sorry..

[THEGODBEAST]

That is totally your opinion and you are indeed entitled to it. No hard feelings.
However, I think you are sadly mistaken on values of bootlegs and customs.

First of all, Battle Beasts for instance. The 6 Canadian bootlegs can fetch $50+ each for them. They are extremely rare even in Canada and finding a mint one with hologram and weapon is near impossible.

Second example, Star Wars bootlegs. Uzay (Turkish) Blue Stars (navy blue hoth stormtrooper) mint loose can go for $1500+. That is only one example. There are tons of other SW bootlegs worth way more than the originals, it all depends on quality and how many were produced.

I don't know if you have noticed. My customs are made in extremely low quanities and in such a range of colors, that to be honest, there are so few made, they will most certainly retain their value, especially when I stop making them.

Also, since you don't own any of my customs, you don't know their quality. They are exact duplicates or "clones." Near perfect in almost everyway (unless stated otherwise in my ebay auctions).

Exoginis being worth more than my customs, I think not. I would possibly trade a bug or a brocken for 3 exoginis, but, NEVER, EVER, would I trade 3 Exoginis for a Claw, Satan Cross 2pc., a Sunshine Arch, or a Sunshine top w/base. That is not even reasonable. I know you stated in your post you understand the $ and the labor in producing the customs I do, however, that alone is why my customs are worth what they are! Seriously, where else could someone say, "Hey Marty, could you make me a black universe glitter Arch?" or "Hey Bandai, could you make me a crystal clear 2 pc. Satan Cross?" (<- Yeah right!) or how about this, "Hey Bandai, could you entomb some vintage G1 Muscles or Kinneshi into a Sunshine Arch or Sunshine top?"

I know you are only stating your opinion, that is exactly why I am stating mine.

THEGODBEAST

To be on topic again though, I would buy those Exoginis Phil!

[MIWP]

I would possibly trade a bug or a brocken for 3 exoginis, but, NEVER, EVER, would I trade 3 Exoginis for a Claw, Satan Cross 2pc., a Sunshine Arch, or a Sunshine top w/base. That is not even reasonable

Why? They have the same rarity being that are your custom made figures right?
Why the hell would you sell a Satan Cross for more? That is marking up your figures simply because of the rarity of the mold you copied. It doesnt seem right to me, almost like you may steal the value of originals. Your idea is a keen one and a great way to make some bucks though I dont like bootlegging... What if many years from now your figures are being passed off as original super rares and people get ripped on what they thought was an original? Can you actually make an almost exact sculpt? Hell, maybe I have been ripped off already and do not even know it and that scares me as it should. Call me paranoid but this whole thing has me Paranoid.

[max powerz]

He makes them completely different. The MOLD is the same but the figures color scheme is completely different. If he were trying to pass them off as originals by doing them in simialr colors, that is illegal, since he CLEARLY makes the color scheme different IT WILL NOT effect the price value of the hobby NOR would he be in trouble with the company (thats why your not getting calls from mattel or bandai marty ) Since they are clearly different you shouldnt worry. Now its your opintion to value whatever you want at your price, but he has the right to do the same. Personally the only one worth getting to me is the brocken or an entombed muscle one, and the only thing that would be expensive in my eyes is the entombed one. Marty isnt "bootleging" he is making it an art. Bootleging is passing it off as an original. Not one of his is a bootleg, they are originals since he is creating them how he wants and not by the way they were originally made. I would like to get to casting myself but I have a completely different toyline I would like to try it on AND it would be much more expensive to do it to. (I think you all know what line) but that would be for my personal collection for the most part since I want an army. I would HAVE to make them distict so I dont get them confused AND I wouldnt screw up the comunity of those toys.

As for him selling a SC for more, its understandable, its more in demand just like certain molds. He needs to put some food on the tabel. Originals are kewler to own for sedimentary reasons but the customs shows other atributes to your obsetion. A custom can look better then the original too. Try painting the same figure different ways. Not actually but scan it. You can do better sometimes then their choice too. I personally think his things look cool and would love to own a BROCKEN JR seethrew black, silver sparkel, with a cool glow (red or green cant deside yet) but only time will tell if I can get one. Seeing how the mold is almost gone, its unlikely. But I still hope....

[THEGODBEAST]

You are Paranoid.

How can someone be ripped off down the line when my customs are hard (the only actual soft ones Alex owns), totally different colors and schemes, and everyone and their dog who collects right now knows they are customs. You are seriously becoming a sick collector puriest! Seriously, if Johnny, Jason, Nate, etc... of the big time collectors were super paranoid, then I could understand your concern. C'mon, do you see me pumpin' these out like a sweat shop? NO! Do you see me flooding them on Ebay? NO! Do you see anyone trying to pass them off as real? NO! You seriously need to stop drinking, smoking, and maybe your Paranoia will calm down. Seriously, I am not trying to be a unit, however, you are really off base I think.

You are totally entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Every collector makes choices as to what they will collect, how much they will spend, and even whether or not to collect customs and bootlegs. If you want nothing but the real thing or even if you think my prices are too high, that is fine and I respect that, however, your facts on toy collecting, toys as an investment, and my customs are not accurate.

To be honest the only thing that could hurt Muscle value would be if Bandai decided to remake all of the original G1's in "MASS" quantities and sell them at retail.

Look at TF!

Seriously you are the only person (besides a couple of dealer jerks in the Battle Beast Universe) that has ever feared my customs as a threat to the value of the originals.

I truly think your paranoia is due to the amount of $$$ you have been spending on RARES!!!

Seriously, if my customs were a threat, do you think Johnny, Alex, Phil, etc... would even offer to loan me rare figures to mold? NO!

Don't think of me as a threat, think of me as a person who can make what you want for a fairly good price.

The reason a Brocken or a Bug is cheaper is due to not many collectors wanting those sculpts. They are not that popular. So basically I have lost money on making molds of them.

I hope you can get your Paranoia under control and see the value of having someone who can make what you want, when you want.

I am not trying to win you into a customer, I am only trying to get you to appreciate my customs for what they truly are, high quality custom additions to collector's collections.

THEGODBEAST

[Tortle]

Actually Exogonis are worth more than custom made figures because they are originals.

Well, first of all, I really don't think that Exoginis are "original", i.e., legitimately licensed Kinnikuman toys. They don't have trademarks, they're smaller than American MUSCLEs, and they have less detail in their sculpts... all of which just scream "bootleg" to me.

Second, from what I've seen of Godbeast's work, his customs far surpass the quality of Exoginis. They have a sharper sculpt and seem to be made of a better plastic in niftier colors. Personally, I think that his customs are worth more than only 3 or 4 Exoginis.

Third, the first two points don't really matter. Of course, all of this depends on the individual collector's preference. I can definitely understand the appeal of Exoginis... and conversely, I can understand the appeal of Godbeast's customs. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Fourth, I'm not too worried that future collectors will misidentify the customs as legitimate. Their plastic is drastically different than legit MUSCLEs and there are some differences in the sculpt (mainly the height), so I don't think there would be much confusion. If somebody doesn't do their research, then they could definitely get ripped off, but that's true in all areas of collecting. I don't think you've gotten ripped off with a custom job, MIWP, for the same reason that I don't think that I've been ripped off: we're both knowledgable collectors who know exactly what to look for. We can tell if something is a bootleg or not because we've done our homework.

That said, I would definitely agree with you if Godbeast started making customs in the same color as MUSCLEs. I think there is a line between customs as "art" and customs as "ripping off Toei/Yudetamago". But right now, I consider Godbeast's stuff as "art" because it's so different.

But I do understand your viewpoint, so I hope this post doesn't sound like I'm "MIWP-bashing". I'm just giving my own opinion...

-Nathan

[THEGODBEAST]

Nate and Max you guys are right on the mark!

However, one exception Nate, the hieght. Mine are exactly the same hieght. There is near 0 shrinkage. That first SC that Alex just sold was slightly smaller due to dremelling the sprews off the bottom of his feet too much.

The difference bewteen me and a money hungry bootlegger, is like Nate said, I am not trying to pass them off as real or even trying to make the fleshy color. To be honest, I don't even want to, nor could I at this point. Also, when my wife was out of work for 4 long months and we had 0 income, I would have pumped them out like mad! That was when I really could have used the $$$. I didn't!

Seriously Nate and Max are right on and I appreciate that they feel my work is art. I know I do, even though right now I have only messed with colors and entombing. There will be a kit bash and there will most definitely be an original sculpt when I am all moved into my new house and set up a new studio. (Long story,but, my wife got a new job in another state).


Also MIWP, you can ask several collectors that have my stuff, how much I trade, how many extras I throw in, and how many others I have just hooked up.

Paranoia really is not necessary with me and my customs. Your serious $$$ investments lately will not be hurt by me and my customs, trust me.

Sorry Phil how this topic of your second chance offer turned into "THEGODBEASTS CUSTOMS" TOPIC.

Seriously if one of the "Mods" would want to move the infected posts to a new topic and start another thread, I would be pleased to hear other's input, as it has been a while since this discussion has been raised. I appreciate MIWP's viewpoint and would like to hear others. Hopefully if there are any other paranoid collectors, maybe a friendly discussion with everyone's opinions might help get a better understanding of "customs" vs. "bootlegs."

THEGODBEAST

[THEGODBEAST]

Phil,
you beat me!
I was already typing my last post (with an appoligy to you), when you posted yours first!
Sorry, if you read it all though, you will see I didn't start it!
THEGODBEAST

[MIWP]

I really dont mean to bash you godbeast, those were just some thoughts I had for awhile now. I dig your figures but just have my own tastes, sorry..
Sorry Phil for my ranting....

[max powerz]

Well I am glad to hear that youve worked what you needed to out Phil, but onto the "new topic". (Is happy things can be split and merged now). ANywho the fact of the matter is that Marty's customs are unique in the fact that they arent the original colors of the m.u.s.c.l.e's and kinnikuman molds. If he was to do that, then that WOULD be bootleging and the company would be able to get into legal matters. Since Marty's customs have their new look even if its just anothre color (if thats your mentality) its STILL different from the original and cannot be passed off as the original.

Customs have never hurt a toy line unless they were exact copies. Its just a fact... In fact the customs, if anything, will help the toy line. You see, the apreciation, time, effort, etc etc shows how someone is dedicated to the toyline and would inspire MORE to attempt to buy. It always gets people paraniod, but thtas what happens most the time. If anything its a seperate GODBEAST line. Think of it that way.

But of course you can take the original Max Power advice "There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way" and Marty is doing it the right way by making them different from the originals so it would not hurt the toyline. You see if he did, he would lose money wich would be stupid.

Back to my old catch phrase

Slaming down and out,
Max Powerz

[phillymadison]

lol dont worry fella's i was only playing

its all good

on the flip side all your posts are awsome reads and are very interesting

also Thank You all for your help with this very minor problem I had

[Tortle]

ANywho the fact of the matter is that Marty's customs are unique in the fact that they arent the original colors of the m.u.s.c.l.e's and kinnikuman molds. If he was to do that, then that WOULD be bootleging and the company would be able to get into legal matters.

I could be wrong, but technically I think he could get into legal trouble right now since he's selling copyrighted characters and figures. But I think that his operation is so small that it really doesn't affect Bandai or Mattel at all, and they probably wouldn't care enough to bother with legal proceedings.

Customs have never hurt a toy line unless they were exact copies.

Actually, I've never seen a case where a custom has hurt a toy line's collectibility. Custom Rocket-Firing Fetts pop up all the time, but that doesn't decrease the value of an original prototype.

However, rereleases of a toy usually DO hurt its collectibility. For example, the prices of loose vintage Star Wars vehicles plummeted when the vehicles were rereleased in POTF2 (especially the A-Wing). I'm not sure if the recent Transformer rereleases are negatively affecting their vintage counterparts' values, but I assume they are.

-Nathan

Edited by Tortle, 07 August 2003 - 10:49 AM.

[doc_moore_j]

I'd like to start by stating GodbeAst is a douche bag, haaha kidding. But when it comes to his customs, they are effing outstanding. I have about twenty of them, all are favorites in my collection. I agree with Tortle in that Godbeast's customs are a much better mold and closeness than exogini are. I love exogini too and have a nice little handful (You can see mine on my site), but Godbeasts uniqueness, color schemes, and just plain sweetness makes me like them better. I have 6 glow in the dark figures, and they are totally awesome, clear colored glitter figures, and solids, all of which are so close to the original sculpt that if I did not know any better, I would say they are legit, aside from the colors, and density. I think the main reason his customs are a little pricey is because of the hundreds of dollars he has dumped into making them. If he owned a huge plastic factory where he could produce hundreds in a minute I am sure he would not charge more than a buck a piece. I personally am happy to spend $20 on a crystal clear SC because frankly, who else can say they have one (Other than Johnny that prick). Not to mention it is just simply amazing! I am not choosing sides or argueing, I am just clearing up any confusion as to whether or not his customs are good to go, and believe me, they are good to go. As far as legality and bootlegging being bad or what not, I do not care. I am getitng bored of muscles because i have a million of them, so when he came out with something new, I jumped on it.

[arforbes]

I'd like to start by stating GodbeAst is a douche bag, haaha kidding. But when it comes to his customs, they are effing outstanding. I have about twenty of them, all are favorites in my collection. I agree with Tortle in that Godbeast's customs are a much better mold and closeness than exogini are. I love exogini too and have a nice little handful (You can see mine on my site), but Godbeasts uniqueness, color schemes, and just plain sweetness makes me like them better. I have 6 glow in the dark figures, and they are totally awesome, clear colored glitter figures, and solids, all of which are so close to the original sculpt that if I did not know any better, I would say they are legit, aside from the colors, and density. I think the main reason his customs are a little pricey is because of the hundreds of dollars he has dumped into making them. If he owned a huge plastic factory where he could produce hundreds in a minute I am sure he would not charge more than a buck a piece. I personally am happy to spend $20 on a crystal clear SC because frankly, who else can say they have one (Other than Johnny that prick). Not to mention it is just simply amazing! I am not choosing sides or argueing, I am just clearing up any confusion as to whether or not his customs are good to go, and believe me, they are good to go. As far as legality and bootlegging being bad or what not, I do not care. I am getitng bored of muscles because i have a million of them, so when he came out with something new, I jumped on it.

Doc, you put that so damn well that I can say nothing more than I totally egree. GODBEAST's customs are effing amazing, and I have never seen anything any better ever! Deserves three woots!

[max powerz]

I could be wrong, but technically I think he could get into legal trouble right now since he's selling copyrighted characters and figures.

He can't your wrong Im such a know-it-all, I know it all Serriously though, he CANNOT be sued. If he was he would win the conter suit. First of all, he is COMPLETLY changing the line. Call it what you will, but a custom color scheme is still a brand new figure and its not duplicating it the way the company has done it before THEREFORE its a new toy. It may be a reason why they make all these anoying repaints, but its still a NEW toy in the toy compainies eyes or in a collector's eyes. Going back in history, you can look at artists and their work.... That weird perverted artist guy dude thing who make a mold of Micheal Jakson in only white and gold, the famous painting of the cambels soup, etc etc... First of all since he changed it there is nothing they can do, he isnt even trying to pass it off as the original. Think of it as a remix of a song but without having to pay some sort of royalties. But as you said, they wouldnt care anyway even IF they could...

Customs have never hurt a toy line unless they were exact copies.

Actually, I've never seen a case where a custom has hurt a toy line's collectibility. Custom Rocket-Firing Fetts pop up all the time, but that doesn't decrease the value of an original prototype.

Its not an ALWAYS basis but I have heard (we all hear things lol) but I have heard that there have been only when its been an exact copy that only a real pro can tell the difference between the two. I mean if a sudden splurge of something were to just come out, it would hurt the toyline which what most people see that happen to as you have mentioned are the re-releases which we all know of the benifits and concequences of that happening....

If anyone has anything to prove me wrong, please do, I dont want to hold false information and spread that out

[AmoiMan]

I'd just like to say that although they're out of my personal price range, GODBEAST customs are friggin awesome. Much higher quality than an Exogini, and really no threat to the MUSCLE or Kinnikuman toylines. They are quite obviously different from the originals, in color as well as the type of plastic, and....uh....they're just awesome!

[Tortle]

He can't your wrong Im such a know-it-all, I know it all Serriously though, he CANNOT be sued. If he was he would win the conter suit. First of all, he is COMPLETLY changing the line. Call it what you will, but a custom color scheme is still a brand new figure and its not duplicating it the way the company has done it before THEREFORE its a new toy.

I believe he can be sued because he's producing copyrighted characters. Also, he's not "completely changing the line". The figures may be a different color, but they're still the exact same sculpts as those owned by Bandai. You can't just take a toy, change its color, and own the rights to its profits. Actually, upon further consideration, there's absolutely no way I'm wrong, so cancel my initial disclaimer.

But just to clarify, Bandai wouldn't even bother with legal action against Godbeast because his operation is so small that it doesn't really affect the company. And regardless of all that legal bullcrap, I totally approve of his work.

-Nathan

[max powerz]

But then how did exogeni get away with bootlegs and the quarter machine ones that say HONG KONG on them. I mean they had those in some major locations like toys at bust. He Still is giving them a major change. A color change is still major. I mean if the toy company can pass a repaint off as a new toy, why cant he Anywho, they still are hella cool and Im trying to get on in particular at the moment but i have my eye on afew

[Tortle]

But then how did exogeni get away with bootlegs and the quarter machine ones that say HONG KONG on them. I mean they had those in some major locations like toys at bust.

Well, Exogini are different because international copyright laws are weird. I think if Toei/Yudemawhatever didn't specifically copyright them in Italy, then there's nothing stopping somebody from ripping them off in that country.

The quarter machine figures must have existed because of some kind of legal loop hole. But it just doesn't make sense for a person to take toys developed by another company's work and based on copyrighted characters, just change their colors, and then have legal rights to the toys. That makes both licensing contracts and copyrights themselves entirely worthless.

-Nathan

Edited by Tortle, 08 August 2003 - 07:29 AM.

[jkaris]

A simple exercise would be for Marty to make a few clear Yoda's from the 1st SW series in 1979, and see how quick Lucas and his legal group have his arse in a pinch......

Bandai and Toei are not that anal.

Lucas is.

But the fact remains, it IS copyright infringement.

A certain percentage of the sculpt has to be changed to bypass the copyright laws. Coloring doesn't count.

And if a company recolors their own toy and sells it as another, that has nothing to do with anything, as the sculpt is theirs originally. Moot point.

[max powerz]

They are slightly smaller, your eye just cant see it

Well I wounder what the loopholes are since the quartermachine toys are practically the same. I have one of Sugaru (the ring version one I think, its closest to that size). Also there are tons of bootlegs of starwars things and a copyrights and patents only have weight soo long (except ideas). I should do alittle research to find out what can be done to what. Its sneaking time

[max powerz]

Its a LOT of reading

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

Ill get threw it one day and Ill find the loop soon enough...

[max powerz]

A “work of visual art” is —

(1) a painting, drawing, print or sculpture, existing in a single copy, in a limited edition of 200 copies or fewer that are signed and consecutively numbered by the author, or, in the case of a sculpture, in multiple cast, carved, or fabricated sculptures of 200 or fewer that are consecutively numbered by the author and bear the signature or other identifying mark of the author; or

(2) a still photographic image produced for exhibition purposes only, existing in a single copy that is signed by the author, or in a limited edition of 200 copies or fewer that are signed and consecutively numbered by the author.

A work of visual art does not include —

(A)(i) any poster, map, globe, chart, technical drawing, diagram, model, applied art, motion picture or other audiovisual work, book, magazine, newspaper, periodical, data base, electronic information service, electronic publication, or similar publication;

(ii) any merchandising item or advertising, promotional, descriptive, covering, or packaging material or container;

(iii) any portion or part of any item described in clause (i) or (ii);

( any work made for hire; or

© any work not subject to copyright protection under this title.23

From this it says taht a work of art is something made in less than 200 copies, maybe yoda DOES have a chance and rememeber 200 so he can go to the next color after that, its a "new" work. But i have to check out title 23....


Edit title 23--- "23The Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990 amended section 101 by adding the definition of “work of visual art.” Pub. L. No. 101-650, 104 Stat. 5089, 5128."

Edited by max powerz, 08 August 2003 - 08:03 AM.

[max powerz]

Still in chapter 1 check this out:
§ 104A. Copyright in restored works29
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works36
§ 106A. Rights of certain authors to attribution and integrity37
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38
§ 113. Scope of exclusive rights in pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works45

Onward ho!

[max powerz]

CHapter 2
Copyright Ownership and Transfer
201. Ownership of copyright
202. Ownership of copyright as distinct from ownership of material object
203. Termination of transfers and licenses granted by the author
204. Execution of transfers of copyright ownership
205. Recordation of transfers and other documents

Chapter 5
Copyright Infringement and Remedies
501. Infringement of copyright
502. Remedies for infringement: Injunctions
503. Remedies for infringement: Impounding and disposition of infringing articles
504. Remedies for infringement: Damages and profits
505. Remedies for infringement: Costs and attorney's fees
506. Criminal offenses
507. Limitations on actions
508. Notification of filing and determination of actions
509. Seizure and forfeiture
510. Remedies for alteration of programming by cable systems
511. Liability of States, instrumentalities of States, and State officials for infringement of copyright
512. Limitations on liability relating to material online
513. Determination of reasonable license fees for individual proprietors2

Chapter 6
Manufacturing Requirements and Importation
601. Manufacture, importation, and public distribution of certain copies
602. Infringing importation of copies or phonorecords
603. Importation prohibitions: Enforcement and disposition of excluded articles


Come back in afew days with what all you think, lol its gunna take awhile to read, and to find the holes...