Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo
- - - - -

Green Mountain Beastformers come clean about custom Battle Beasts


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
57 replies to this topic

#1 GreenMountainBeastformers

GreenMountainBeastformers

    Beastmaster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 150 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:58 PM

Hi Folks, a member recently contacted us because he was concerned our custom Battle Beasts on eBay would decrease the value of the original toyline, we wanted to share this incase some of you share his concerns.  If you look closely at the Cobra you will see he has a different hand so he can grip things with both.  We do use metallic silver and gold pigments as in the Dog you mentioned.  We use every color in the rainbow.  This is not to copy the original toyline or Greek Battle Beasts.  We usually don't make Beasts the same color as the originals, and any collector of Battle Beasts who handles one of ours will notice the minor imperfections and small air bubbles that are a result of the casting process.  In the case of the Clear Carp, we created this for collectors like ourselves who can't afford to spend $90+ on the original, but out of respect for you and other collectors we've relabeled it as a reproduction.  We regularly mix specialty colors for our customers upon request.  Many of our Beasts are cast in anatomically correct colors, for instance, this week we have a white weasel in with some others.  We wanted a white weasel because this is the real color of a weasels coat in winter.  The same goes for the black Skunk.  At Green Mountain Beastformers, we reserve the right to use any color we can dream up.  The clear Beasts seem to be quite popular, and as far as we know Takara only made a clear Carp and Cobra so the vast majority will be different from these.  To address your other concerns, we produce one of each figure at a time, and a mold lasts for about 6-12 figures before it breaks, so we'll never produce enough to affect the value of the originals.  For custom Beasts we currently have Predatorbeast, Bipolar Biped, Manglin' Mammoth, and Iron Lord all of which you can see here https://www.facebook...formers-6455…/… Upcoming figures include Okapi and Anklyasaur.  Really we're just an upstart company trying to support our young family.  Thanks for your time, GMB

 

Attached Files


  • 7





#2 Skullcruncher

Skullcruncher

    Transformer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 March 2016 - 09:02 PM

Customs or KO's dont affect the price of original toys, demand is what affects the price. Sounds like a reseller was just having a hissy fit. Keep up the good work on the customs!


  • 6

#3 bachamn

bachamn

    ビーストフォーマー オタク

  • Beastformers Archaeology
  • 3569 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:Digital Media, Travel, LRGs
    ビーストフォーマー
    レーザービースト
    ビーストサーガ

Posted 02 March 2016 - 11:07 PM

Haha still no causalities, yet the war continues. :D While I have not purchased any of your creations, I am glad there are fans out there helping keep the line alive with projects like this.

Even if you selling a clear resin carp somehow impacted the value of the original (and I'll just go ahead and say that it will not) I could personally give two shits about the monetary value of these figures, and I say that as someone who probably spends more on them than most people would ever consider reasonable or sane haha

Keep up the good work! I cannot, however, endorse that Iron Man beast :p

Edited by bachamn, 02 March 2016 - 11:11 PM.

  • 3

#4 Draznar

Draznar

    LRG Elite

  • LRG Council
  • 4722 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Battle Beasts and Boba Fett!

Posted 03 March 2016 - 03:48 AM

It won't affect the price of the line, but like Bachamn said, even if it did I wouldn't be too worried about it.

The only people so focused on that are the guys who've spent thousands to hoard figures to artificially drive up value and hope to make some money back. (And other similar people looking to make money off of toys.)

Don't worry about those folks. Keep doin' what you do!

I was the guy who asked about the Cuttlefish the other day, and I will absolutely be commissioning one in the future! (Also: I surprisingly like your Predator beast, and love that Mammoth!)


Edited by Draznar, 03 March 2016 - 03:49 AM.

  • 0

#5 Exactobeast

Exactobeast

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 March 2016 - 06:09 AM

As an owner of 8, these resin guys are pretty great for what they are.  As previously mentioned, being cast of resin vs the rubber of the original line, it would be hard to mistake any reproduction for an original and thereby I really don't see any market-wide price effects.  Honestly, the biggest problem is that you are making just one more thing that I feel this urgent need to acquire.  

 

Also, I do have to appreciate how you actually managed to get the arms pegs fully functional (though arms therefore not removable) in a resin cast.  Looking forward to your creations in the future, especially the customs (I am literally working on an Anklyasaur in my hands at this exact moment, what are the odds!?).

 


  • 2

#6 Beastformers

Beastformers

    The White Rabbit @BEASTFORMERS

  • Beastformers Archaeology
  • 1631 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Planet Beast! (NL)
  • Interests:BEASTFORMERS:
    BB-LB-GBB-BDC-BS
    Protecting, Defending & Preserving the original vintage line by TAKARA/HASBRO
    (1986-1988)

Posted 03 March 2016 - 06:37 AM

Ok here we go again.................

I´ve been the person contacting him about this for some solid reasons, reasons that´ve also caused that the Repro Shields and Sleds that were produced have been provided with a makers mark in order to be able to tell the difference.

 

There´s quite a couple concerns I have of which I know some of you will easily place this on the pile of monetary value or whatever but that´s nothing to do with it if you think about the deeper consequences these creations can have. Let me make clear this only goes for the creation of figs that are close to or exact look a like of the original line because I don´t care about a Clear Elephant or a Blue Cobra being created under the header fan art or whatever because like Bachamn mentioned those projects don´t do any harm and they´re only appreciated by the various BB fans and so are the interesting own creations of your line like that Predator and Mammoth like fig. I´ve nothing against those and I can only support creating more of these unique sculpts of never seen BB figs.

 

BUT...

 

If you create all these kind of Beasts and you´re not even aware of which Beasts have actually been available to begin with (Clear Cobra!?) its obvious the thin line of fan art and unmarked reproductions (that DO harm the line) is easily crossed. And that harm is not done in the value of the Beasts although we all know reproductions due cause a drop in price as we´ve seen with the Shields and Sleds for the LB and that´s all fine with me as well as long as they´re clearly marked but unmarked reproductions of any original item are really a NO GO for me.

 

All of you, hopefully, know the effort and time some of us out here are putting into solving the History of this line in order to trace background stories and the origin of certain pieces within the Battle Beasts line and thanks to that together with all the info and discussions out here the line is still loved by many collectors world wide and we still have new collectors joining each year. And it are those new collectors together with the respect for the history of the original line that are in danger when WE start accepting these creations as such and without any markings or what so ever. Most of us out here are well aware that these American Made Beasts are fakes and reproductions because of the experience and insights we´ve gained about this line, big chance that was due to the info or discussions out here, but that doesn´t mean a new collector who´s less aware of all this is able to tell that difference as well. A simply reproduction or American Made line in a header on Ebay is not enough to prevent this because if you want you could easily buy a ton of those Clear Carps for $15 each and have them relisted as original Clear Carps for $100 or so. WE will recognize those are fakes because they´re either to Clear, made from a different kind of plastic, or whatever but for a lot of collectors those for us simple details might be overlooked and they think they´re buying an original Clear Carp, Clear Gator, Stone Cobra, Gumball Beast, Greek Beast or what so ever because you can´t always tell the difference simply based upon a picture. There´s a reason why people like GreenMountain create Beasts like that because there´s indeed a gap between various collectors with on one side the group who´s only into the original Beasts and who are willing or able to pay for the originals with on the other side the group who´s not willing or able to pay those amounts and they´re more than happy with a reproduction for the fraction of the price of the original. That´s all fine because that´s what we´ve seen with the Sleds and Shields of the LB as well. That worked out well in the end simply because there was a clearly distinct makers mark added in order to satisfy both sides, and that really all I´m asking here for as well. Not for the money but for the credibility of the line and in order to show some respect to the original line and the hard work that´s done out here in order to preserve the original line.

 

Without all that it´s a matter of time before new and even old collectors might start turning their back away from the BB community because if at a certain moment you can´t be sure anymore whether you´re buying an original GBB or a counterfeit reproduction Beast the line will be facing some serious credibility problems and I´ll tell you this will be the beginning of the end. We should realize that that what we, and others before us out here, have created is pretty unique because we´ve a pretty well documented archive of Battle Beasts history and an alive community of BB collectors out here who´re all enjoying to hang out here and share their finds, ideas, thoughts, etc out here and in order to protect all that I can´t get to understand why most of those collectors seem to be so naive or careless about those kind of counterfeits, are you really thinking that´s all fine and we should be happy with it because it saves us bucks without doing any harm to that what we´ve actually been building out here for all those years!?! 

 

None of us out here would be very happy if they´d think they´re finally getting a Stone Cobra for $100 and finding out its a counterfeit but sometimes I think some of us out here really believe that they´re able to find an original for a price like that. Again its not us I´m trying to protect because we all know what´s going on and we probably wont be burning our hands like this but new or less informed collectors will and I don´t want to be part of community which is not wiling to step up to defend the original line and who´re risking to loose the collectors value of all the info we´ve gathered here because that is not $$ value but its energy, passion and perseverance your fellow collectors have invested out here and that´s the value I don´t want to loose because with it the line will be loosing its credibility.

 

This is not the first time I´ve stepped up against Reproductions or counterfeits like these and it probably wont be the last time, some people will blame me for stepping up because of they think I´m protecting the $ value or some might see this as an overreaction but I hope most of us out here will understand the real reason for me to do this because that´s to protect and preserve the original line and that´s what I´ll continue to do for as long as I´m out here.

 

We all enjoy the Beasts in various ways but we´re all part of the same community and in order to respect each and everyone of us a simple Makers Mark on Reproduction items like these take away all the problems...........

 

Addition:

To clarify I´m not saying GMB has wrong intentions creating those because he obviously hasn´t looking at the time and effort he´s been putting into the creation of unique figures which a real counterfeiter wouldn´t be doing imho so that´s not a point of discussion for me. The problem is that he creates those figs and they can start doing harm the moment they end up in the wrong hands or get to someone with wrong intentions in order to make money out of them by selling them as the real deal over our backs and/or over the backs of new collectors. And even that might´ve happen by accident because if someone in 2 years from now finds a GMB Clear Carp (who knows how the color ages over time maybe it´ll also turn Yellowish) in a random lot the first thing he´ll think about is the fact its an original so that´s where it can also go wrong. We´ve had various experiences of that in the past as well and all of them have been causing a lot of frustrations and suspicion amongst collectors because none is willing to burn their hands. The Chinese counterfeit LB Weapons of a couple years ago have learned that with even good friends and fellow collectors start to doubt the origin or originality of the items because of all that. And it is true that WE as a community have been able to verify and distinguish even those well produced unmarked counterfeits from China but it took a while and you really can only tell the difference for 100% when you have those in hand and with that it also took a while before the trust out here was restored. So this is not an attack at GMB but he´s the one to decide whether or not his creations are marked or not and thus whether he´s respecting us as a community or whether he doesn´t care and can be held responsible for the fact people might burn their hands in the future by paying for something that´s not real.


Edited by Beastformers, 03 March 2016 - 06:50 AM.

  • 1
BEASTFORMERS ビーストフォーマー
Battle Beasts, Laser Beasts, Beast Saga
Collector/Researcher/Trader/Reseller since 2011
Beastformers.WordPress.com For more info about the Beastformers Archaeology (-BA-) Project please click HERE

#7 Exactobeast

Exactobeast

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 355 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 March 2016 - 07:29 AM

A GMB mark on the foot is an interesting idea.  Though more work for them, would certainly go a distance to pacify original idealists collectors such as Beastformers.  At the end of the day, in 10 years if a GMB clear carp is in an auction without clarification as a repro, there isn't really much you can do besides hope that the buyer asks questions or that the seller notices the very distinct difference in texture, flexibility, and weight.   I mean, in hand, there is simply no way to not discern the resin immediately.  Should we also be hating on TGB for his LB molds?


  • 1

#8 Draznar

Draznar

    LRG Elite

  • LRG Council
  • 4722 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Battle Beasts and Boba Fett!

Posted 03 March 2016 - 07:52 AM

I didn't get through your entire statement, I just honestly don't have the time.

I haven't got one of these suckers in my collection right now, but if they're made of resin then there is going to be, I would think, an obvious difference in the materials. (I'll let you know when I get around to ordering one.)

People are always going to be trying to find ways to make a quick buck. People with the knowledge, skills and tools will always try and create fakes to make some money. You're doing a good job and documenting a lot for other collectors, new and old, to be able to reference and learn. Between you and LRG here, we've got a pretty decent knowledge base for anyone to look up on and research.

Personally, if you're out there willing to drop hundreds of bucks on toys, you should be smart enough to research what it is you're buying and an estimation of it's value. If you find a $300 figure listed properly for $100, chances are something is up. (That old saying, "if it's too good to be true, it just might be" comes to mind.)

Lots of folks around here have problems with bootlegs and repros, but I could honestly care less. Takara doesn't care about the franchise any longer, (as evidenced by Beast Saga), and the minimates figures are akin to garbage anyways. So there's no real impact on them making an official comeback. (Which puts that theory to bed anyways, as TGB did tons of repros/customs and there was still two comebacks.)


  • 3

#9 koppenschevelle

koppenschevelle

    Delta Chameleon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1105 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sandwich, IL
  • Interests:Battle Beasts, Beast Saga, Battle Beast minmates, Armorvors, Hot Sauce, Tea, Pearl Jam, Films, Camers, Animals, Chameleons and lizards

Posted 03 March 2016 - 09:48 AM

GMB, I have really been enjoying seeing your customs on Facebook. I have been following you on facebook for a little while now. I have been meaning to contact you about trying to pick up a few from you at some point.

 

I can sympathize with others that have concerns with people making exact reproductions in an original style, color and material (Like those Laser Beast weapons that came up a few years ago which looked almost identical), but looking through your work, that's clearly not what you are doing here. You are a customizer, like myself, that just has a lot of interest in the figures and their design, and want to create new figures to go along with that. It reminds me of others, like TGB, who have made custom figures as well as casting original figures in a large variety of non-original colors. And honestly, I have always felt that these customizers are what keeps the line alive for many of us.

 

I think as long as you steer away from making exact duplicates of the original rare figures (striped carp, stone cobra) in original color and material some difference, even small, you will be fine. Everyone that is serious enough into this line to want one of these high end figures is going to be able to spot the differences.

 

Looking forward to what else you make!


  • 3

#10 Flashbax

Flashbax

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 263 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aberdeen, SD USA
  • Interests:Toys, games, comics, and anything D&D

Posted 03 March 2016 - 11:13 AM

I can see both sides of the issue. maybe a small brand of some sort put into one of the feet (use a small hot iron brand, sand down the foot of any residue) takes a slight bit of time but a good idea, hard to hide. i don't think any modern repros will hurt the line; my only concern would be on the Greek BB front, but they have a unique shiny plastic look to them (from the few i have seen on the net). Mainly people looking to buy high end stuff need to do their research, know their stuff.

 

also i like the ideas of repros out there for people to do/make customs with


  • 1

"Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it t someone else; you are the one who gets burned." Buddha

 

197 Battle Beasts, 73 weapons, 13 Laser Beasts, 5 lasers, 2 bases, 2 sleds (repo), 47 cards

 

I'm looking for Battle Beasts, Laser Beasts and weapons!

 


#11 Rubberhammer

Rubberhammer

    Steve McQueen got nothin' on me.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2096 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Backwoods
  • Interests:Weird, Ugly, Monsterous, Obscurities!

Posted 03 March 2016 - 04:06 PM

"You can't tell anymore whether you're buying an original GBB or a counterfeit reproduction"

 

Hahahaha!

This cracked me up.

 

Soon you will not be able to tell who made the counterfeit figure you are buying!

 

Why don't you go ahead and "preserve the history of the original line", and quit worrying so much about the future.

If you really want to encourage more new collectors, why don't you spend all that typespace on trying to get people to quit asking such high prices for their extra figs.


  • 1

#12 Draznar

Draznar

    LRG Elite

  • LRG Council
  • 4722 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Battle Beasts and Boba Fett!

Posted 03 March 2016 - 06:38 PM

If you really want to encourage more new collectors, why don't you spend all that typespace on trying to get people to quit asking such high prices for their extra figs.

 

You only see folks quoting high prices when they're doing the selling. When people are trying to buy, figures are of course next to worthless.

Saw some chump the other day on the facebook group called "Battle Beasts" trying to swindle some dude's figures, including series 3, for next to nothing. (I called him out on it.)


  • 0

#13 Skullcruncher

Skullcruncher

    Transformer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 March 2016 - 01:07 AM

The history of the original line will always be there, reproductions usually make originals more desirable (look at the exact copy G1 transformers from china, or the transformers masterpiece KO's - some people even say the reproductions fix the QC issues the originals from takara have!!).

 

The fact is there are not that many battle beast collectors around and keeping people interested with customs or exact replicas of high end beasts is a win in my book. 

 

I'm waiting for an reproduction stone cobra to come out, its just a matter of time IMO.


  • 0

#14 mca19

mca19

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Interests:Mainly Battle Beasts/Laser Beasts

Posted 04 March 2016 - 04:52 AM

I'm waiting for an reproduction stone cobra to come out, its just a matter of time IMO.

In terms of the stone cobra, get a regular cobra and get a guy like Ersico to customize it.  I've seen his work and it's great.  Clearly not an original when you see an original vs. a painted one, but wow is he amazing at his custom work.  I have seen a couple of his stone cobras first hand.  

 

And I have stared at that mammoth for weeks now, glad to see he's being released on ebay.  If I had some money to throw around right now, that mammoth with ersico's custom work would be a highlight in my collection.  My boys would love it.  I do wish these were rubber instead of resin, but maybe in time....  

 

Great job, looking forward to the new additions  


  • 1

#15 imperfecz

imperfecz

    Götter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4407 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arizona
  • Interests:stuff n stuff

Posted 04 March 2016 - 09:46 AM

Feel horrible I don't remember which member specifically, but I did a Stone Cobra repaint for someone here as well. Fun times.


  • 1

#16 Skullcruncher

Skullcruncher

    Transformer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 March 2016 - 04:15 PM

In terms of the stone cobra, get a regular cobra and get a guy like Ersico to customize it.  I've seen his work and it's great.  Clearly not an original when you see an original vs. a painted one, but wow is he amazing at his custom work.  I have seen a couple of his stone cobras first hand.  

 

Thats a good point, there is a local custom guy here in Australia too. I might see if he can do something.

 

EDIT - Whoops just realised I onlyhave one cobra.  :lol:


Edited by Skullcruncher, 04 March 2016 - 04:16 PM.

  • 0

#17 Beastformers

Beastformers

    The White Rabbit @BEASTFORMERS

  • Beastformers Archaeology
  • 1631 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Planet Beast! (NL)
  • Interests:BEASTFORMERS:
    BB-LB-GBB-BDC-BS
    Protecting, Defending & Preserving the original vintage line by TAKARA/HASBRO
    (1986-1988)

Posted 06 March 2016 - 07:37 AM

It turns out I´ve not been the only one contacting GMB so I´m not sure how others have approached him via private messages but I can only speak for myself and I´ve contacted him in a fair way explaining my concerns as I´ve done here and open for discussion. But it looks like a lot of people don´t really care....

 

A GMB mark on the foot is an interesting idea.  Though more work for them, would certainly go a distance to pacify original idealists collectors such as Beastformers.  At the end of the day, in 10 years if a GMB clear carp is in an auction without clarification as a repro, there isn't really much you can do besides hope that the buyer asks questions or that the seller notices the very distinct difference in texture, flexibility, and weight.   I mean, in hand, there is simply no way to not discern the resin immediately.  Should we also be hating on TGB for his LB molds?

 

A mark on the foot or any kind of mark would be a simple and easy to make adjustment that´d solve the problem straight away and it´d also take away the risk for future buyers even in 10 years because a visible and odd mark like that should say enough. As mentioned earlier the difference in material, flexibility and weight is not something you can judge a picture on so that wouldn´t be a fair way to go imho. Having the figure in hand before purchasing it is in most cases not a very realistic option.

 

I don´t really get it why people always try to point out others like TGB in a discussion where the question and concern is clear and it has nothing to do with worrying about the TGB molds..... Let me be clear I don´t think there´ve been many custom BB folks out here that were so well informed about the line as TGB himself and that has resulted in quite a few unique and at this point even famous creations because without his insight vision and knowledge about the line the Godbeasts would´ve probably forever remained a simple sketch that was found in the Japanese LB book. I don´t care in whatever color LB are casted for reproduction because these, unlike the BB, where never released in Greek Colors, Gumball, Clear or Stone versions so that is not a point of concern!

 

 

Personally, if you're out there willing to drop hundreds of bucks on toys, you should be smart enough to research what it is you're buying and an estimation of it's value. If you find a $300 figure listed properly for $100, chances are something is up. (That old saying, "if it's too good to be true, it just might be" comes to mind.)

Lots of folks around here have problems with bootlegs and repros, but I could honestly care less. Takara doesn't care about the franchise any longer, (as evidenced by Beast Saga), and the minimates figures are akin to garbage anyways. So there's no real impact on them making an official comeback. (Which puts that theory to bed anyways, as TGB did tons of repros/customs and there was still two comebacks.)

 

Is it a matter of being smart enough to check your items before you buy them or does this have something to do with the credibility of the line which might raise your suspicion? Because you can either come from both sides with this its either the whole line is f#cked up way which means you´ve to be suspicious with every purchase you make which imho ain´t doing good to any line or the way in which the line is still good to go with because collectors have been stepping up in order to protect it against reproductions and counterfeits meaning you don´t have to worry a lot about the risk of getting burned. To me it would sound very obvious we´d always have to go for this because when suspicion or credibility become the new guidelines for buying and trading figs it´ll have a serious impact on the atmosphere out here as well sooner or later.

 

That the official rights have been expired and that Takara nor Hasbro is stepping up doesn´t mean we as collectors who love this line should let it go as well.....

 

 

I can see both sides of the issue. maybe a small brand of some sort put into one of the feet (use a small hot iron brand, sand down the foot of any residue) takes a slight bit of time but a good idea, hard to hide. i don't think any modern repros will hurt the line; my only concern would be on the Greek BB front, but they have a unique shiny plastic look to them (from the few i have seen on the net). Mainly people looking to buy high end stuff need to do their research, know their stuff.

 

also i like the ideas of repros out there for people to do/make customs with

 

Amongst the GBB there are quite few varieties in colors and even materials as well so that´s why reproductions can do a lot of damage to this line in particular because some reproductions actually come pretty close to the GBB colors. Of course in hand you can easily tell the difference but than its to late in most cases...... 

 

People who´re buying high end stuff need to do their research!?

So we´ve to start creating a guidebook for GBB, Clear Carps and Stone Cobra with tips and guides to help you verify you´ve a legit figure, really!?

I´ve always learned its better to prevent something than to solve it and that´s the point we´re at at the moment are we really letting this happen meaning sooner or later someone will get burned and people have to start working on identification guidelines in order to see if the item is original.

 

Just recently I was in touch with a relatively new fellow collector who mentioned having bought a LB Shields which he thought to be original but which turned out to be a reproduction because it was shown on the back of the Shields. So who´s wrong here was it the buyer you should´ve been so well informed that he should´ve asked for it being a reproduction because of the price or was it the seller because he obviously didn´t mention it being a reproduction.............. It was noted because of the simple marking so even though someone was burned it did end up in the hands of a collector so the chances of someone getting burned again is most likely taken away because of the marking on the Shield and the fact I´m pretty sure that if it ever gets sold again it will definitely be mentioned as being a repro.

 

"You can't tell anymore whether you're buying an original GBB or a counterfeit reproduction"

 

Hahahaha!

This cracked me up.

 

Soon you will not be able to tell who made the counterfeit figure you are buying!

 

Why don't you go ahead and "preserve the history of the original line", and quit worrying so much about the future.

If you really want to encourage more new collectors, why don't you spend all that typespace on trying to get people to quit asking such high prices for their extra figs.

 

LOL

If people like you don´t give a sh#t about the history of a line and only address value to and care about the actual physical figures just go ahead and have fun with that but don´t come up with lines like that showing disrespect to the effort we´re putting into the background stories as well because some people DO appreciate it when they´re able to find some solid info about the history of a line!

 

History can´t be rewritten but it can be made undone or get polluted in case people start messing around with reproductions and counterfeits in the future so I do worry about that.

 

I don´t get it why people always tend to think prices are to high as if that´s something that can be created!? These figures are 30 years old by next year so it ain´t to strange that, as with most vintage items, prices are most likely not going down. If you look back into old posts and discussions of 10 years or so ago you´ll look at the prices they asked back than with tears in your eyes because it were only fractions of the amounts we´re paying for our figs today. It is not only the rare items that go up in price but also the normal BB which should be more than plentiful available if you´d ask me so maybe this might´ve something to do with the way the market works and that time is not really ticking in the advantage of the buyer because over time prices for vintage figures like these did, are and will always go up. That´s something we all have to live with whether we like it or not and I´m just as much a collector as everyone else out here so we´re all paying these prices. 

 

You only see folks quoting high prices when they're doing the selling. When people are trying to buy, figures are of course next to worthless.

Saw some chump the other day on the facebook group called "Battle Beasts" trying to swindle some dude's figures, including series 3, for next to nothing. (I called him out on it.)

 

Well don´t worry because the moment the market gets flooded with reproductions and counterfeits it´ll be a matter of time before also the selling prices will be next to nothing ;)

We´ve seen the impact of the repro Shields on the original ones because before prices of $300+ were paid for those but after the reproductions hit the market the prices dropped to almost $100-$150. There´s a lot of people out hunting on Beasts in the hope to get them for a bargain and in some cases to make a few bucks out of it but what more can you do than to call out on them, it´s the sellers decision whether or not he´ll sell them for a set price. Not everyone out there cares about the Beasts as we do and thus some of them have no clue about the value collectors like us are willing to pay so in most cases the prices people get are not in line with the prices we pay. Who´s to blame for that because in the end we all hope to find that one bargain but when it comes to prices it ain´t fair buying them at an amount that´s not in line with the market value!? All of this is a lot more complicated than it looks. People buy big lots on Ebay getting figs at $3 each or so and they sell them one by one for $10 or more these days, that´s just how it works.... The only thing you can do about that is to inform people to buy bigger lots so that they can get Beasts for a better average price than buying them one by one but that´s nothing new. 

 

The history of the original line will always be there, reproductions usually make originals more desirable (look at the exact copy G1 transformers from china, or the transformers masterpiece KO's - some people even say the reproductions fix the QC issues the originals from takara have!!).

 

The fact is there are not that many battle beast collectors around and keeping people interested with customs or exact replicas of high end beasts is a win in my book. 

 

I'm waiting for an reproduction stone cobra to come out, its just a matter of time IMO.

 

Well I´ve heard also less positive stories about reproductions being out there in the TF line and there´s quite a few lines that´re actually killed because of the market was flushed with reproductions and people became suspicious because they could no longer identify real from fakes anymore. As long as there are no exact reproductions without markings made the originals are strong enough to withstand these influences and in that case I do agree with you that customs can and do gain extra interest in the line so that´s indeed a win but only if the creator of those customs or reproductions is willing to show some respect for the originals as well so that both can coexist without harming one another by simply adding a makers mark to the exact replica´s.......

 

I´d be interested to hear what´d be the value for you to have a Stone Cobra reproduction figure!?

Is it because you think the design is so wicked and awesome that you want one but the originals are just to expensive or is it because it is the most rare Beast out there and that makes it so desirable? In other words the History of the line does matter because that´s learned how and why the Stone Cobra is as desirable as it is but this is something we´d never had known if some Chinese factory would´ve started producing exact replicas during the early 90´s because no one out here would´ve been able to tell that in that case and we´d have always believed that the Stone Cobra would´ve been an easy to obtain figure because there are so many out there and it costs only $10....... That´s exactly how things will go if we let down our guards and stop protecting the original line because than in 5 years from now none would ever understand the collectors value of a Clear Carp, Stone Cobra or whatever figure because there´s so many that everyone has one. For collectors who really care about the original figs and the line this is like a stab in the back because we´ve saved funds in order to purchase that one holy grail figure for our collection because WE did care about the history and we DO care about the original figures. It is ok if some people are not willing or able to pay such amounts for original figures so for those the reproductions are a good outcome but that doesn´t mean they should take away the holy grail feeling of the other collectors by trying to make exact replica´s for only a fraction of the price without any marks. All that´s really done in those cases is showing a huge disrespect to the original line and you envy those who´ve really cared and worked hard for their holy grail pieces.

 

In terms of the stone cobra, get a regular cobra and get a guy like Ersico to customize it.  I've seen his work and it's great.  Clearly not an original when you see an original vs. a painted one, but wow is he amazing at his custom work.  I have seen a couple of his stone cobras first hand.  

 

And I have stared at that mammoth for weeks now, glad to see he's being released on ebay.  If I had some money to throw around right now, that mammoth with ersico's custom work would be a highlight in my collection.  My boys would love it.  I do wish these were rubber instead of resin, but maybe in time....  

 

Great job, looking forward to the new additions  

 

The repaint is a good option but I think that´s way to much in order to get a Stone Cobra because you´d have to buy an original Series 3 Cobra which are around $15 these days and than you´ve to pay an artist for their work which ads another $30 or so to the total and that together with the shipping easily ads up to $50 so why do so much effort when people are making exact reproductions for only $15!? In other words some people don´t really give a sh#t about the Stone Cobra and they´re not even wiling to come up with original or custom ideas for it because all they really want is to get one for as low as possible.....

 

 

I think that if this is the direction the BB community is going with accepting and even supporting Reproductions without any markings abnegating the original line its time to think over what I´m actually doing out here because that means the History of the line is practically worthless to you as well and that means I´m no longer respected and needed out here either because all of that will be undone in a couple of years anyway. So maybe its better to become less active out here, and like many of the other collectors that do appreciate the original line, keep quiet.....


  • 0
BEASTFORMERS ビーストフォーマー
Battle Beasts, Laser Beasts, Beast Saga
Collector/Researcher/Trader/Reseller since 2011
Beastformers.WordPress.com For more info about the Beastformers Archaeology (-BA-) Project please click HERE

#18 Flashbax

Flashbax

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 263 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aberdeen, SD USA
  • Interests:Toys, games, comics, and anything D&D

Posted 06 March 2016 - 10:58 AM

"People who´re buying high end stuff need to do their research!?

So we´ve to start creating a guidebook for GBB, Clear Carps and Stone Cobra with tips and guides to help you verify you´ve a legit figure, really!?

I´ve always learned its better to prevent something than to solve it and that´s the point we´re at at the moment are we really letting this happen meaning sooner or later someone will get burned and people have to start working on identification guidelines in order to see if the item is original."

 

If you buy a house, you research, if you buy a car, you research. When I spend $400 on a collectible, I do my research. Let's say I want a G1 Fort Max. I find a loose one for $300, seems a bit cheap. So I look into are there remakes, remolds, how many time was this figure re-released, what were the differences. Is there newer versions of the figure, other off sized figures. What prices do all of these fetch, what are junk bots selling for etc.

 

You seem to have a true love for the line, and that is great, so do a lot of us. You've become a historian for this line; even better. your articles/posts are in depth and detailed. However, times have changed. 3D printing has altered the market, people have a genuine interest in molding their own toys, and a lot of these folks start off with bootlegs/and remolds of other toys and models. I mention models because this is a BIG thing in the model industry. People have been recasting/remolding classic kits for the better part of the last 15 years and you can complete vintage kits at a much cheaper cost.

 

I think the vast majority does care to make sure the market stays a bit clean and true, so people, like this greenmountainbeastformers must take the responsibility to do 2 very clear things: #1 mark their product as remakes; from what I have seen on their auctions, and their product, all their stuff clearly stats American made and is clearly a remold. #2 is to keep away from the obvious GBB colors. A very simple solution (from my end at least, since I am no expert on molding) would be to add a unique color scheme, say glitter, or neons, or maybe a glow in the dark swirl, to their normal colors.

 

Times change, hobbies change. I think most of us on here like to see some remolds, but they have to be marked for sure. everyone (who does their research) knows a GB custom at the drop of a hat. I'd like to see these guys do good and down the road maybe they will have some crazy toy line of their own. So a duel part of education on the collectors part and a true effort from the remolders is needed.

 

This isn't the first time this has come up, won't be the last; hell, talk to any antique bank collector and then you will hear horror tales of bad remakes that are trying to hurt the market.


  • 2

"Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it t someone else; you are the one who gets burned." Buddha

 

197 Battle Beasts, 73 weapons, 13 Laser Beasts, 5 lasers, 2 bases, 2 sleds (repo), 47 cards

 

I'm looking for Battle Beasts, Laser Beasts and weapons!

 


#19 mca19

mca19

    Serious Collector

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Interests:Mainly Battle Beasts/Laser Beasts

Posted 06 March 2016 - 12:51 PM

GJ, in my response you mention replicas are made at $15? Where can he find one so he can save the money? I am sure many would like one for that range. Not everyone has money to throw around on the originals, and also when is the last time one has been listed? I was trying to come up with options for him

You have been very valuable to this collecting community but I have to admit, I enjoy community over exclusivity. At least three guys posting here (four including myself) couldn't afford a stone cobra for $1000 or whatever it was listed at last time. I want toys for my kids, I am too old and too poor to be displaying and saving toys as collectors items. For those that have the money, I am not trying to put you down I am simply speaking for myself, I can't afford it. All my toys are in my kids toy bins. Green mountain is making new additions, my favorite being the mammoth so far. And they are making affordable alternative to originals. My two cents on the gumball and Greek don't matter because it won't change anyone's mind but I believe for the collectors that have spent the money, a mark would be a great idea

I would hate to see you leave or get upset but I think everyone is entitled to their opinions. I appreciate that you've shared yours, but all this talk won't change people's minds, maybe that's why as you said, seasoned collectors often stay quiet. But I would enjoy hearing from everyone just avoiding the whole arguing points and stick with a actual conversation. I am far more irritated by people selling the original cobra for $15 than I am by green mountain. And I have the confidence to say that. I found you penguin weapons for dirt cheap and lost money selling them to you, I have scanned comics for free for the community, I have helped numberous people on here acquire collections overseas without charging for my help, and I have given figures to jpac and other big collectors for Customs and as far as I am concerned, I am entitled to an opinion. You can disagree with me, but I hope you can at least do it respectfully.

And before I get applause, please consider that some guys on here spent a lot on there collections, those of us looking for cheaper alternatives need to respect that and not try to devalue their collections.
  • 4

#20 Skullcruncher

Skullcruncher

    Transformer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 March 2016 - 04:05 PM

Reproductions of transformers have been going on for years, its only in the last 5-10 that exact repoductions have come out. Hasbro and Taraka are still making plenty of money even with the reproductions and third party customs. So please stop with the 'protecting the original line' line. If you wanted to do something useful, how about finish that guide on your blog, detail every single Knock Off item, other collectors will help I am sure. You may need to buy some but for collectors who just want original items it will become their #1 reference.
 
Reproductions are only worth what people will pay, look at those repo shields, are they not going for pretty cheap on ebay? Not much demand any more is there?
 
No,  I just would like a stone cobra to complete my line up, I dont think its particularly awesome in any way. Hell once my 1 year old gets older and stops dribbling everywhere and biting everything then he can even play with it (playing with toys woooooo) That is why I'd be happy to buy a reproduction. You might be happy to pay top dollar but there is a market for people who just want a figure to fill the gap. Reproductions are not out to hurt you personally and in hand they would be an easy tell, originals will still demand a high price so you can keep saving and add more original stone cobras to your collection while leaving others to buy the reproductions!!
 
How would they take away a holy grail feel? Thats an odd one, original items are still original, unless your in it for investment purposes then I dont know how that holy grail feel will be lost. Note buying toys as an investment is a bad bad idea!! 

  • 3

#21 Draznar

Draznar

    LRG Elite

  • LRG Council
  • 4722 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Battle Beasts and Boba Fett!

Posted 06 March 2016 - 04:19 PM

Hasbro and Taraka are still making plenty of money even with the reproductions and third party customs.

 

I always gotta chuckle when people bring this stuff up saying it will destroy the original line, or ruin future interest for the creators to continue the lines. Transformers is competing with the third party market and still doing well.

Hell, the only reason why people even go 3P in the first place is because it's the only way to get characters they want. (Either they haven't/won't get made, or were made in such low production runs that it's unlikely to get one without paying through the roof.)

Anybody who thinks repros are going to destroy the line should check out the insane amount of 3P items in the Transformers community, and then check out that Has/Tak is still producing/selling their Masterpiece line like it's going out of business. (Essentially the "brand name" version of 3P items.)

 


  • 2

#22 BadLarry

BadLarry

    Jake All Day

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 191 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts
  • Interests:Robot & monster toys, Lego, MUSCLE, etc.

Posted 06 March 2016 - 05:52 PM

I don't have a horse in this race exactly, but as long as we are making Transformers parallels, I feel qualified to chime in.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say that the IP infringin' 3rd party transforming robots have helped HasTak a great deal. The overwhelming and perhaps surprising success of these companies has been free market research for the big company. I can't prove it, but I think it's a fair assumption that there is a direct link between the many adult collectors dropping major money on 3P offerings and the ratcheting up of the Masterpiece line. HasTak is now cranking out (and selling) more MP Transformers in a year than they had in the entire decade since MP-1 came out.

 

On another TF analogy tip, I have not seen that knock offs have lowered the price of vintage TFs. To wit: among my "Holy Grails" of TF collecting are the 1986 Japan-only combining cassette bots. There are 2 teams of 2 dinosaur/cassettes that can combine into robots. They are actually rare, not just artificially inflated "collectibles". I managed to get 2 of them about 15 years ago, but the other 2 have always been out of my reach.

 

A few years ago, someone put out counterfeit versions of all 4. For a while it may have been dangerous to hunt for those guys, but it wasn't long before some intrepid individuals catalogued the differences between the knock-offs and the real ones. About a month ago, all 4 of the dino cassettes went up on Yahoo Japan. The 2 that I am still looking for ended up going for a jaw-dropping 231,002 Yen or about $1,944.79 at the conversion rate of the day. That's about twice what I've seen them sell for in recent years. (though to be fair, I don't scour Yahoo JP as much as I could)

 

So... for whatever all that slightly off-topic anecdoting is worth.

 

Thank you


  • 2

#23 GreenMountainBeastformers

GreenMountainBeastformers

    Beastmaster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 150 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:10 PM

 

Reproductions of transformers have been going on for years, its only in the last 5-10 that exact repoductions have come out. Hasbro and Taraka are still making plenty of money even with the reproductions and third party customs. So please stop with the 'protecting the original line' line. If you wanted to do something useful, how about finish that guide on your blog, detail every single Knock Off item, other collectors will help I am sure. You may need to buy some but for collectors who just want original items it will become their #1 reference.
 
Reproductions are only worth what people will pay, look at those repo shields, are they not going for pretty cheap on ebay? Not much demand any more is there?
 
No,  I just would like a stone cobra to complete my line up, I dont think its particularly awesome in any way. Hell once my 1 year old gets older and stops dribbling everywhere and biting everything then he can even play with it (playing with toys woooooo) That is why I'd be happy to buy a reproduction. You might be happy to pay top dollar but there is a market for people who just want a figure to fill the gap. Reproductions are not out to hurt you personally and in hand they would be an easy tell, originals will still demand a high price so you can keep saving and add more original stone cobras to your collection while leaving others to buy the reproductions!!
 
How would they take away a holy grail feel? Thats an odd one, original items are still original, unless your in it for investment purposes then I dont know how that holy grail feel will be lost. Note buying toys as an investment is a bad bad idea!! 

 

My 1 1/2 year old loves playing with Battle Beasts!


  • 1

#24 bachamn

bachamn

    ビーストフォーマー オタク

  • Beastformers Archaeology
  • 3569 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:Digital Media, Travel, LRGs
    ビーストフォーマー
    レーザービースト
    ビーストサーガ

Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:20 PM

So maybe its better to become less active out here, and like many of the other collectors that do appreciate the original line, keep quiet.....


You've kind of summarized why you're repeatedly catching grief in this conversation. I don't think anyone takes issue with you having your own opinion about reproductions, but you're stance is very hard-lined and strongly accusatory of any collector who does not agree with you that reproductions are damaging the integrity of the line, muddling history, destroying the collecting community, ruining the market, robbing Takara and/or Hasbro of intellectual property, etc.

 

I mean, I spent countless hours digitally restoring the Japanese poster a while back, which from a "historic preservation" perspective seems viable, but you were more concerned that the value of the original print would be impacted by the handful of prints I sold to collectors. This conversation began years ago when you were spreading fear about the LB rifle reproductions by claiming that in no time the market would be "flooded" with them and prices would plummet. This didn't happen; and to my knowledge no one has seen any new LB rifle sets since the one I bought in 2013. 

 

It's a matter of perspective. You'd be hard-pressed to find a group anywhere in the world other than this forum who would even know what you're talking about most of the time, much less care about the finer points of reproductions enough to have a conversation about it. Telling that insanely niche (generally slightly obsessed) group of collectors that they "don't care about the toys and are dooming the line" simply because they don't agree with your opinion isn't exactly diplomatic. When a fan is doing custom work that many others are enjoying but you're convinced that you need to be proactive and step in to "preserve the line" (whatever this actually means to you), I think it's reasonable for the community to come to the defense of that member. Maybe it's time to re-assess what is actually important here?

 

Anyway, already wrote more than I meant to, but I think it's reasonable to assume that every BB/BF/LB collector here appreciates your obsession with this line if only because the research and dedication you put in has turned up some interesting information, but don't get it twisted. At the end of the day you're another collector, just like the rest of us.   :mellow:


Edited by bachamn, 07 March 2016 - 06:20 PM.

  • 6

#25 imperfecz

imperfecz

    Götter

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4407 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arizona
  • Interests:stuff n stuff

Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:26 PM

TLDR:

 

Don't be "the Hub"


  • 1






Copyright © 2017 LittleRubberGuys.com