105 replies to this topic

[Ridureyu]

Actually, enough data exists to postulate that Satan Cross wasn't really all that rare. Rarer than others, sure, but produced in enough numbers that it most certainly isn't a factory error or one-off. This also jives with Jim Morrisson's statement.

[Leitmotiv]

I don't think you understand us, Johnnie Cochran. It DOES make sense. MUSCLEs were cancelled in North America barely after they were released. That's why more advertising dollars were never wasted on promoting the chance at finding a super rare figure.

Joe Morrison stated the super rare figures were given only to retailers who placed large enough orders. Super rares were EXCLUSIVE to those who placed large enough orders. Whether this means Toysrus was given one super rare in its case assortments and Kaybee toys was given another exclusive only to it, or if all big retailers received super rares mixed in with, say, each pallet of MUSCLEs it ordered, we don't know for sure. But that doesn't really matter. If Toysrus EXCLUSIVELY received one super rare, it would have likely advertised to its customers the opportunity to find that one super rare in its stores. If all big retailers received premium super rare(s) in every pallet of cases they ordered, they would have advertised slightly more generically the opportunity to find super rares hidden in 10-pack garbage cans or told kids to look closely at the 4-packs of MUSCLEs you buy for a special figure. The point is whether the figures were exclusive to an individual retailers or premiums to big purchasers only IT DOES NOT MATTER. Either way they would have advertised it. The most logical reason why didn't advertise the super rares was the precipitous and abrupt decline of the MUSCLE line. RETAILERS NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO ADVERTISE SUPER RARES BECAUSE THE MUSCLE LINE ENDED SO QUICKLY.

PS Exclusives for specific retailers are most certainly not a new marketing tool. The Hit & Run GI Joe in 1988 was released in a special version for Target only. http://www.yojoe.com...runtarget.shtml

Even before that, an exclusive Missile Command Headquarters was released as a Sears Exclusive in 1982. http://www.yojoe.com...les/82/cobrahq/

Then again, in 1988 and 1989, the GI Joe Night Force line was released exclusive to Toysrus.

So, no, "store exclusives" are not new.

I see you're mixing modern definitions of exclusivity with generic definitions of the word. Exclusives today are what I described before. Such as Target getting a 12" Wampa doll and no one else does but it is mass produced (not rare, qualifying words those). It is sold and advertised in their flyers and on commercials and acts as a draw for that store. The exclusivity you're talking about is much more generic. They may get an exclusive "one-off" figure but no advertising for it, because it's tucked in the packages and hidden. I see what you're saying, but I think the difference is in terminology.

The Muscle line did not abruptly end. In fact, that's the whole reason the colored muscles exist, because the line was losing steam and they introduced colors to make it more exciting. A cheap and easy tactic to increase slumping sales. So hardly abrupt by any exaggeration of the word.

Still waiting for that apology!

Actually, enough data exists to postulate that Satan Cross wasn't really all that rare. Rarer than others, sure, but produced in enough numbers that it most certainly isn't a factory error or one-off. This also jives with Jim Morrisson's statement.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. But the lack of advertisement doesn't seem to coincide with an incentive program as has been postulated in interviews that everyone here has read.

Edited by Leitmotiv, 26 July 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Ridureyu]

It does, since it ultimately ends up an issue of whether TRU or whichever retailer really feels that advertising the figure will boost revenue. If it won't? Well, there are hundreds of MUSCLEs anyway, it might cost too much to try to advertise them. The Satan Cross 4-packs (and cans, maybe?) would just be mixed in with everything else. You're alreadygetting them, so it's up to you whether it's worth the effort and money to advertise or not (probably not).

Also, this isn't a good thread to start arguing or flame-baiting.

[ComradeCuttlefish]

I see you're mixing modern definitions of exclusivity with generic definitions of the word. Exclusives today are what I described before. Such as Target getting a 12" Wampa doll and no one else does but it is mass produced (not rare, qualifying words those). It is sold and advertised in their flyers and on commercials and acts as a draw for that store. The exclusivity you're talking about is much more generic. They may get an exclusive "one-off" figure but no advertising for it, because it's tucked in the packages and hidden. I see what you're saying, but I think the difference is in terminology.

The Muscle line did not abruptly end. In fact, that's the whole reason the colored muscles exist, because the line was losing steam and they introduced colors to make it more exciting. A cheap and easy tactic to increase slumping sales. So hardly abrupt by any exaggeration of the word.

Still waiting for that apology!



I'm not disagreeing with you there. But the lack of advertisement doesn't seem to coincide with an incentive program as has been postulated in interviews that everyone here has read.

"Exclusive" Night Force GI Joes available only at Toyrsus in 1988/89 or Target getting an "exclusive" Hit and Run GI Joe in 1988 not available anywhere else is not the same as "Target getting a 12" Wampa doll and no one else does?" These are EXACTLY the same thing.

Whether the super rares were "exclusive" to individual retailers or "premiums" included only in large orders, they normally would have been advertised. Unfortunately the line ended in less than 2 years because it was unsuccessful, so it's no wonder retailers chose not to spend more to advertise.

MUSCLEs were released only in 1985 and 1986, accordingly to Nathan's MUSCLE blog. A toyline that ends in a less than two year period can be said to have ended "precipitously" and "abruptly" and to have not been a success. According to the Joe Morrison interview, color figures were released as a way to keep the line "fresh" in the most cost effective way possible. MUSCLEs were not a successful toy. That's why different figures weren't released but simply recolored instead in a last ditch attempt to get a little more juice out of the line for as cheaply as possible before retailers lost interest. Apparently, they still lost interest rather quickly, which is why the line died after less than 2 years and people like me could still find MUSCLEs in the stores on clearance as late as the early 90s. MUSCLEs were no GI Joe, Transformers, Barbie, or other toyline that has been around decades. The decline of MUSCLEs was precipitous and abrupt.

Edited by CuttleFishforsale, 26 July 2011 - 03:12 PM.

[Leitmotiv]

The decline of MUSCLEs was precipitous and abrupt.

Declines are not precipitous and abrupt. Terminations are. Cancellations are. Declines are visible and measurable.

Cuttlefish, I think I'm about done responding to you, because you're bouncing around too much. We're not talking about G.I. Joe Hit & Run exclusives. We're talking about very rare, esoterically rare, so rare that I won't ever get one if I tried, Muscles that weren't exclusive to a specific store so far as we know. It's not exclusive if very few exist. It's not even cost effective. By the way, I remember Muscle, and it may have been only a two year life span, but injecting "freshness" and "juicing" it up is just an abstract way of saying they were trying to make money for a dying line. If the line was making a lot of money, then there certainly wouldn't be any need to freshen things up or inject some juice. The line was failing hence the colors. It was not an abstract ploy to be fun and creative. It was to make or save money.

By the way, it's perfectly okay to argue or disagree, because arguing is not inherently negative or positive. It's just a difference of opinions. But when someone gets emotional (which I'm not doing) and calls someone "arrogant" when it's unfounded... that's "flamebaiting." I was hoping for a sincere apology, but if I ain't getting one, I'm not gonna dwell on it, and I will move on. Really, it doesn't mean that much to me if people are going to get upset for disagreeing.

Disagreements are commonplace, but how we react to disagreements defines our character. I hope its noted that I wasn't the one labeling people, but rather putting out my own two cents and a different theory on the existence of rare Muscles. I'm sorry I'm not drinking the punch, but I thought maybe I'd share with you all some coffee instead!

[Leitmotiv]

It does, since it ultimately ends up an issue of whether TRU or whichever retailer really feels that advertising the figure will boost revenue.

This logic isn't working for me either. First the retailer decides to order just enough to get the incentive figure. Then they get the super duper rare but don't do anything with it? No advertising? Why did they go through with it in the first place?

[Ridureyu]

I doubt they had to agree to a special super-duper rare, and I also doubt that the "large order" was really that high. TRU orders a bunch of cases as per their usual policy, some SCs are thrown in, and TRU gets to decide whether they want to spend extr amarketing money on that figure, or just let it slide because MUSCLEs aren't G.I. Joe or He-Man.

At the moment, the best theory for SC jives with everything Jim Morrison said. There are too many SCs for them to be a rare mistake or prototype or salesman sample, and finding some in original packaging just adds to that.

[imperfecz]

Everyone here does realize that "Super Rare" & "Satan Cross" are "Apples" & "Oranges" right?

[Ridureyu]

Have I been calling Joe Morrison JIM Morrison this whole time?

[imperfecz]

hahahahahahhaha!

[Ridureyu]

Sneagator is the Lizard King. He can do anything.

[fuzzbuster]

M.U.S.C.L.E. is the rose of mysterious union.

[Jet-Mech]

This isn't a good thread to start arguing or flame-baiting.

Hear hear!

[Leitmotiv]

Everyone here does realize that "Super Rare" & "Satan Cross" are "Apples" & "Oranges" right?

Most definitely. And when I have mentioned super rares, it was not in reference to Satan Cross. I would label Satan Cross the generic term "rare." Because it is, but not so difficult that I couldn't get one if I tried.

General Veers has just discussed the exclusives and basically said what I was trying to say but in different words. Thank you for that.

[jkaris]

I wouldn't even term Satan Cross as rare at all. Only "non-poster".

[Leitmotiv]

I wouldn't even term Satan Cross as rare at all. Only "non-poster".

Is it really that common? If you took regular poster Muscles as a base line, then wouldn't Satan Cross at least be Uncommon? If it was common to begin with, there wouldn't have been so much hullabaloo. But it did take about ten years or so for someone to acknowledge the figure's existence. That to me, doesn't make it common, but rare. For example, a rare in Magic the Gathering packs are found in at least one per pack, but getting the specific card you are looking for takes some time. Doesn't that fit Satan Cross perfectly?

I guess it all depends on your definition of rare.

[stoneyface]

satan cross = "uncommon" non poster muscle. not rare, not super rare. just uncommon. not found all the time but in enuf numbers that it cannot be discounted as bootleg and cannot be "rare", just uncommon...

[Leitmotiv]

I guess that's the trick. Who's definition of rare are we going to use? MiMP for example have rares that are far more common than Satan Cross.

[jkaris]

I have had tens of thousands of MUSCLEs pass through my hands throughout the years, literally, and there have been figures that seem to be harder to get a hold of than is an SC, if not for popularity.

So, while I guess you could rate him as "uncommon", he isn't much more so that say a 193 or a 84 in flesh.

Granted, this is speculative based on building sets and selling them over the years when I had the store.

[Ericnilla]

Satan cross isn't rare at all though. He is borderline common. He's just popular and perceived as rare cuz he isn't on the poster.

[Ridureyu]

Yeah. because he's not on the poster, and does not show up in any alt colors. But still somewhat of a mystery, and more likely Joe Morrison's idea.

[mrjayberry]

First, can somebody get this out of the way, I thought M.U.S.C.L.E. was a highly sucessful line it's first year. It did end quite suddenly but I thought that was due to general disinterest by Mattel combined with declining sales after the introduction of colored figures (with a dash of M.U.S.C.E. being a "fad" toy line). So it would make sense on that level introduce a figure as a bonus or exclusive or whatever.

I have to agree with Veers, no one theory is going to work for all "non poster" muscles you're going to have to break them up and see what you come up with. Personally outside of Satan Cross I think they are just mistakes. I know the popular theory is that they used plugs to keep non-poster muscles from being made but I think its just as likely some poor guys job was to sit there and sort the non-poster muscles into a bin to be recycled. If that was the case it would be very easy for a Drunken Master or two dozen to be made and accidently thrown into the packaging step.

[imperfecz]

Maybe they were planning on X amount of figures and a test batch of sorts was presented to narrow down the final list. These were the ones they decided to drop and no more were produced. SC either was an accidental omission on the poster or a bonus figure...

[Jackson]

I have had tens of thousands of MUSCLEs pass through my hands throughout the years, literally, and there have been figures that seem to be harder to get a hold of than is an SC, if not for popularity.

So, while I guess you could rate him as "uncommon", he isn't much more so that say a 193 or a 84 in flesh.

Granted, this is speculative based on building sets and selling them over the years when I had the store.

I acquired my SC halfway through completing my Flesh Set, 84 is the last figure I am waiting for to finish out 1-236 lol